Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
You clearly never played games where one-sided mass removals not only break any stall but directly win the game within an aggro strategy (big beasts or tokens army). Just because you never experienced this, don't assume every player play your same strategies. So a wrath of god will never win you any game the same turn you casted. An asymmetrical mass removal, can.
Lol imagine thinking that there is literally anything I will suffer if I don't stop. Oh no, an ineffectual mod will PM me some red text that I'll ignore
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
You said, verbatim, that white has the most efficient removal in response to a discussion about what white's core identity is or should be. If you only meant sweepers, then you could afford to be much clearer in your communication.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Sure. At no point was anyone here suggesting that the median curve for a discussion about white's power level in EDH, of all places, be 9. There's still a place for 9 mana spells somewhere in that gap, but I'm curious to know how we settled on MV9 as a point of comparison when the black sweepers I listed mostly range between 3 and 7 mana, almost identical to the ones you listed for white.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'd settle for you supporting your arguments with evidence. Anything besides more logical fallacies and unwarranted condescension, frankly.
I'm not asking for favors.
No, you're asking for mod text.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
I... did you just imply that you're a child? I'd be more careful about how you choose your words, amigo.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Apart from perhaps certain iconic mana rocks, EDH isn't really defined by its 1 or 2 drops, and certainly not the white ones.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Pretty sure there's a reason why it's never been replicated, at least not with text that functions the same way. As we pretty well established with PtE and StP, one or two strong cards are an outlier, and not representative of the color as a whole.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Terminus is a good card, but not without its faults (you have to draw into it naturally on a turn it actually matters). Again, one strong white card isn't enough to cast all the black ones I listed in an inferior light.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
I said win the game, not dawdle for a turn and hope your opponents don't conjure an answer. Why would you draw a distinction between "cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas" and then list a whole bunch of clunky cards that are easily outclassed by pretty much anything in any other color? That seems counterproductive.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
Oh, the irony. If you had to know a person to attack them I suspect the internet would be a much friendlier place. I don't have to actually feel insulted or attacked for it to be obvious that you are insulting or attacking me; by the same token, how what you say or do is perceived is just as important as how you meant it (or thought you meant it). That's basic communication. Now, do I actually feel insulted? Absolutely not - there's no "thin skin" to be had after 6 years in the airborne infantry. I asked you to stop out of politeness, because I'm not the one who is going to suffer in the long run.
Cheers m8.
White does have the most efficient point removal. Black catching up, as it is supposed to be the number 1 in it, is the point.
Cool, so you recognize what cards cost what mana. You're on your way to being a Magic player. You still haven't listed board wipes that are actually better than their white counterparts.
Sure, what standard of evidence do you need to prove that unrelated things are unrelated? Mirriam-Webster might help.
Oh no, mod text. Someone help.
Am I am implying that I'm a child by suggesting that you find an adult to read to you? Seriously? If you have to fall back on semantics to the point that you cannot even read, why bother?
Commander's best cards are all 2 mana and less, not even including lands. Mana rocks, mana dorks, point removal, counterspells, graveyard hate, rituals, draw spells, etc. Have you played the format?
Hmmm, so it's an overpowered white card and you don't like the way it plays. Finally, progress.
Hey, you acknowledged a single white board wipe. Nice.
Which of the cards listed dawdles for a turn? They're pretty much all game winners the turn they drop.
No, you really can't. Nobody is attacking you. I'm being condescending towards the things you are saying here, and the way you are saying them, 100%. If you feel that you are defined by these things, and choose to perceive my dismissive attitude towards it as an attack upon you, that's your choice.
Hmmm, acknowledging that how I am perceived is as important as what I intend, but the same does not apply to you? Interesting.
Lol I could care less about the 6 years you spent on welfare learning how to kill babies. Military types are the most fragile egos I have ever encountered in my life. It isn't so much a badge of honor as much as it says you weren't good enough for the private sector at 18, and not good enough for career military at 24. It's pretty much the easiest 6 year career anyone can sign up for. Not really sure how your professional crayon tasting degree is all that relevant anyways.
So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
The current trajectory has been steadily downward since those two powerhouse removal cards we just discussed, otherwise there'd be more of them to talk about. These past two sets may prove to be a watershed moment for other parts of white's identity, but only the future will bear that out, not your say-so.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
If this was about competitive EDH (a contradiction in terms so far as I'm concerned, but to each their own) this whole time, you could have let on several posts ago. That would have strengthened your position better than any number of snarky personal attacks.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
Actually, you brought up standard first after I mentioned white weenie decks. Really though? You don't see how the best decks might also have the best cards in them, that's a correlation that didn't occur to you?
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
This style of rhetoric isn't doing you any favors, friend.
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything.
Not that the personal judgments I render should mean anything to a given player, but I don't think highly of people who need Serra Ascendant on turn 1 to win, or feel good about doing it. Sort of contrary to the entire point of EDH, but I digress. You're misrepresenting my point here: I didn't say "mana costs don't matter," I said the curve is shifted up, which would imply both that the sweet spot for MV is consequently higher and that lower MV is also somewhat trivialized. Not a hard and fast rule, and there are obvious exceptions, but nothing that contradicts my broader assertion. Most people spend their early turns dropping mana rocks or ramping, not plotting their masterstroke with Savannah Lions or Clergy of the Holy Nimbus. If you're still mystified as to why I chose standard instead of, say, EDH to disprove your statement about white having the best 1 or 2 drops, it's precisely because EDH is the format where those sort of drops matter the least.
I notice that you didn't say I was wrong about black sweepers this time. Progress!
If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
Again, not what I said but I'll humor you: because it kills indestructible creatures in a format where gods and the like are fairly prevalent. EDH tends to be a playground for cards that cost life instead of mana because your starting total is conspicuously higher (and easier to get back), not always necessarily because the card itself is cheap.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
There's quite a lot you can do with 9 mana in just about every color except... white. What are you doing to win the game with 9 mana in white?!
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'm not asking for favors.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
Express through Storms is pretty useless. Even in a storm deck, it's better to just play Grapeshot in most of the situations listed on the card. It's useless when you're not already causing the table to scoop.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes.
If by "more efficent" you talk about mana value, than sure, you're probably right, but you can't say that a black mass removal that says "destroy all creatures and planeswalkers you don't control" is not better than any "destroy all creatures" effect. Black clearly do better than white in terms of mass removal at higher mana costs so you can't say that black is both worse and inefficent than white in every sense, because that's not true.
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
White will also not see another card as good as PtE or StP, so as far as trajectory goes it's at least on par with every other color in that regard. Apart from that, at least we can finally both agree that black is more efficient.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
By what metric are you judging efficiency here? EDH curves out much differently than historic / modern / standard etc, so even 6-7 drops are perfectly viable. Pretty much everything I listed are top black cards on EDHREC, have similar or better effects than what you listed, and maybe cost an average of ~1 mana more in a format that really doesn't care. It sounds like you're making the mistake of thinking what used to be efficient in standard (MV4 sweepers) somehow translates to EDH; it doesn't.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Well, one of us needed to provide an objective measure, and it wasn't you. Do you have evidence to provide that proves me wrong, or are you going to keep engaging in logical fallacies?
Is it universally acknowledged, or are you in a bubble? I forgot when you were elected to speak for the community.
White is not the strongest color but it isn't as straight cut trash as your whining implies it is.
It is, yes, and I'm not saying anything that every other respectable MTG news site hasn't already made a case for themselves. I also never said, nor implied, that it was "trash"; if you somehow inferred that from the evidence I provided, then at least we may be approaching the same conclusion.
Also of note, white has literally the only agro 1 drop that is playable in commander.
That would mean more to me if EDH was a format that, as a whole, actually cared about aggro. There are plenty of non-aggro 1 drops across all colors that could be described as efficient, playable, viable, etc. Personally, I think something as simple as Viscera Seer does as much or more for a given deck's game plan than Serra Ascendant, but your mileage may vary.
So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything. If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
Why in the hell would anyone try to argue that White hasn’t been left behind? I guess some people on the internet just need to be argumentative contrarians.
I am saying that white isn't as far behind as others are saying. I'm saying it doesn't need to be #1 to be good, and that it sees plenty of play in multiple formats as is.
I guess unless I believe the sky is constantly falling, I'm a contrarian.
Does everyone on this forum have some sort of personality disorder or something? It is like always so all or nothing with you people.
Before we continue, can you stop making personal attacks? I would greatly appreciate it if we both maintained some level of mutual respect, whether or not we agree.
Not sure where you see either a personal attack, or where you've done anything to earn my respect, but I have treated you with all due dignity. I am not accountable for the thinness of your skin.
Which of white's premier effects is it no longer best at?
Targeted removal. This has been addressed multiple times now.
They have the most and most efficient board wipes.
Strong disagree on that second part, and I think I've already said as much.
Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
How does best 1 and 2 drops suddenly mean best win rates?
Uh, the two links I gave you. I'd still like to hear your source, if you don't mind.
Do you have a better metric for defining "best 1 and 2 drops" apart from their very measurable success rates (or lack thereof)?
Sounds like you play a really.insular meta. That sucks
Okay. White being the weakest color in EDH, by a very wide margin, is almost universally acknowledged by the entire Magic community.
Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Damn, it's not the 4th most winning color. Guess underperformed for 2 weeks in a single format is all the data needed. Thanks for the link?
What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
None, but that was kinda the point and I think you missed it. PtE and StP stand out above the rest, and I admitted it as much. Nothing else in white really comes close, and everything else that does exist in white is, at best, on par with other colors. Even blue is getting exile effects at instant. It's a pretty big clue that white is struggling if one of its premier effects is no longer better than everything else.
[/card]
Which of white's premier effects is it no longer best at?
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
Black has several, actually, and I could name them all if you like. Did I imply meaningless? I feel that I pretty clearly communicated that there's quite a few of them and they are playable, but you continue to ignore your own choice of words. You said "most efficient," and I've provided a fair amount of evidence to the contrary. Unless you meant "they have the most," and also happen to be efficient, but that's different.
They have the most and most efficient board wipes. Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
You said white has "the best 1 and 2 drops," which would seem to imply they outclass the 1 and 2 drops from each other color. Since those other colors also have competitive 1 and 2 drops, and their decks have between marginal and significantly higher representation / win rates in standard than white, I would (again) argue that your basic premise is patently untrue. My source(s) for the data points I provided were mtgdecks.net and mtggoldfish.com, in that order; where are you getting "4th most winning deck" from?[/quote]
Where are you getting 20% of the field from?
How does best 1 and 2 drops suddenly mean best win rates?
Can you stay on topic, or do you need more hand holding than I am providing?
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
For context, the entire point of this discussion was about white's intrinsic qualities, for better or for worse. Out of all the individual colors, it's the one that suffers most due to past and current design philosophies, so it's hard to have a conversation about how to improve on that core concept without judging it against itself, or against other colors, on a 1-for-1 basis. I would argue that there's actually a strong case to be made for every mono color deck in EDH except white, but that's a bit of a digression (I'm not even going to address the concept of competitive EDH). White is, inarguably, the absolute worst color in EDH, by itself or paired with others. Comparatively speaking, no other color suffers from such an abject lack of power, speed, or flexibility, and the strengths that used to be the hallmark of white are increasingly trivialized as more and more sets are released. What's the point of having the best removal from yesteryear if you still can't manage a viable win condition? [/quote]
Sounds like you play a really.insular meta. That sucks
You didn’t specify a format so I covered the breadth of what’s most popular, within the context of white’s current trajectory. White has two of the objectively most powerful, single target removal spells ever printed, yet accounts for only 2 of any given 99 cards in one popular format, and as you pointed out, only Path to Exile is legal in modern - neither of those cards are legal in arguably two of the other most popular formats, which you also mentioned. The point wasn’t that white has no removal, only that it’s not the “most efficient” compared to what mono black or black + X has been churning out in recent years. You made a comparative statement that others had already disproven, and I didn’t feel like being redundant here.
What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
Again, as far as comparative statements go: does white have a lot of sweepers? Sure. Are they the “most efficient”? I would argue no, given the push to MV5 in recent years and the diversity of efficient board removal in other colors. Playable (or even prolific) does not equate to “most efficient.”
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
According to the metrics I’m seeing, standard mono white aggro accounts for ~5% of the current meta. Mono red is closer to 15-20% (near the top) and also sports efficient 1 and 2 drops, as does dimir rogues (7-12%).
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
I see a lot of people complaining about white in EDH, and I fully empathize. The casual cards you listed may be fun to certain people, but are still emblematic of the design philosophies holding white back in one of the most popular formats. They are certainly not what I would describe as being above-curve, which is what I strongly feel white needs in terms of win conditions if its card advantage and ramp potential continue to languish.
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
White gets the most efficient removal, the best 1 and 2 drops, and goes back and forth with green for efficiently costed keyword soup creatures, like Baneslayer Angel
Honestly, over the last few years is that true? What white removal was super efficient that wasn't a board wipe? What massive white soup creature was there since Dominaria? Blue seems to be getting far better removal and green tends to have far more efficient creatures that surpass white.
A color that's typically behind in terms of raw card advantage or resources should have significantly better drops on-curve, but for some reason that's usually green's shtick - a color that also happens to get both card advantage and resources.
White gets the most efficient removal, the best 1 and 2 drops, and goes back and forth with green for efficiently costed keyword soup creatures, like Baneslayer Angel
As others have already pointed out, this is patently false on all accounts.
White has the most efficient removal in Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares, two cards that are extremely limited on their format legality. Everything else is draft chaff, combat dependent, overpriced, has selective targeting restrictions, or sorcery speed. If you're referring to sweepers, white by no means has a monopoly on efficient board clears; just off the top of my head, Cyclonic Rift and Toxic Deluge are two of the better cards in EDH. In non-singleton formats, white's sweepers getting pushed to 5 mana has nearly trivialized their playability.
The best 1 and 2 drops probably belong to red, a color that excels at aggro and actually has enough gas to push past turn 3. RDW is a perennial contender; I can't remember the last time white weenie was a top tier archetype.
Baneslayer Angel was a product of its time and place, and fit into one particular deck archetype that disproportionately dominated the standard environment. It's proven to be less than stellar in EDH, hasn't seen much play in non-singleton formats since its halcyon days back in the 2011/12 meta, and I'm at a loss to think up any other examples of "keyword soup" in mono white that've been viable at any point these past 10 years.
Patently false because of people's poor short term memories is pretty funny. Please, go on more about how three people on a tiny forum can't remember the last 3 years.
Wait, so when you criticize White's point removal, you mention it only gets it in nonstandard formats, but the only better board wipes you mention are also outside of Standard? Weird dichotomy there.
Path to Exile isn't in Standard or Historic. It's legal in Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander. Swords only misses that list by 1 format. They aren't that limited in legality.
White weenie is currently a top tier build in standard. Not much of a memory if it can't remember things currently occurring. White almost always has multiple 2/1 for 1s with upside in standard, and many see play in other formats as well. In addition, it gets things like Mother of Runes in the 1 slot.
All mass removal is asymmetrical
White does have the most efficient point removal. Black catching up, as it is supposed to be the number 1 in it, is the point.
Cool, so you recognize what cards cost what mana. You're on your way to being a Magic player. You still haven't listed board wipes that are actually better than their white counterparts.
Sure, what standard of evidence do you need to prove that unrelated things are unrelated? Mirriam-Webster might help.
Oh no, mod text. Someone help.
Am I am implying that I'm a child by suggesting that you find an adult to read to you? Seriously? If you have to fall back on semantics to the point that you cannot even read, why bother?
Commander's best cards are all 2 mana and less, not even including lands. Mana rocks, mana dorks, point removal, counterspells, graveyard hate, rituals, draw spells, etc. Have you played the format?
Hmmm, so it's an overpowered white card and you don't like the way it plays. Finally, progress.
Hey, you acknowledged a single white board wipe. Nice.
Which of the cards listed dawdles for a turn? They're pretty much all game winners the turn they drop.
No, you really can't. Nobody is attacking you. I'm being condescending towards the things you are saying here, and the way you are saying them, 100%. If you feel that you are defined by these things, and choose to perceive my dismissive attitude towards it as an attack upon you, that's your choice.
Hmmm, acknowledging that how I am perceived is as important as what I intend, but the same does not apply to you? Interesting.
Lol I could care less about the 6 years you spent on welfare learning how to kill babies. Military types are the most fragile egos I have ever encountered in my life. It isn't so much a badge of honor as much as it says you weren't good enough for the private sector at 18, and not good enough for career military at 24. It's pretty much the easiest 6 year career anyone can sign up for. Not really sure how your professional crayon tasting degree is all that relevant anyways.
White isn't supposed to be number one in point removal. The downward trend in it's strength is intentional.
There is a wide gap between cEDH and super casual 9 mana haymaker metas.
Again, having the best 1 and 2 drops and having the best overall deck are different things. Do you need a link to determine this?
I'm not asking for favors.
I specifically called out your black sweepers argument, and the mana value one in the same stroke. I'll call it progress when you find an adult to read to you.
In EDH white has plenty of 1 and 2 drops. Hell, the only one of the broken 2 drop cycle to be banned in any format is white, and sees tons of commander play.
Your feelings about how a player wins or with which creature they do so with don't really change the fact that the card can and does work, in a capacity no other color can replicate the same way.
Terminus handles those same creatures for two less mana, and avoids putting them into the second hand.
Well, it used to be Iona. Now it's Zepala. Or, for 7, Batterskull. There's also Akroma, Cathar's Crusade, White Sun's Zenith, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Faith's Reward, Second Sunrise, Avacyn, etc. Saying that any color, or colorless even, can't win with 9 mana implies that you've never played the format.
Awww, more eyewater over "personal attacks." I'm snarky towards the things you say. I don't even know you. Besides, you feeling personally attacked is basically a meme at this point. Has a week gone by here without you crying about one person or another not communicating in the specific way you decide they should be?
At 9 mana, it could be winning you the game instead of just clearing a few permanents. White can do better for 4 mana than black does at 9. For 8 mana, white can include artifacts and enchantments in the board wipe, and double as a tap land in a pinch.
So the trajectory is being fixed so that the premier color can catch up in Standard and Historic? Feature, not a flaw.
Yes, when you play super casually, mana curves stop mattering. So do things like metas, which cards see more or less play, strategy, etc.
I still don't see how "has the best 1 and 2 drops" equates to "which one sees more standard play" is setting a goalpost that is relevant. Two completely unrelated things.
I inferred it from the incessant whining. Also, what percentage of Magic players do you think actually follow those circle jerk MTG news sites?
Ah yes, the person who believes mana costs don't matter also doesn't believe that having access to the only aggressive 1 drop creature in a format means anything. If mana cost doesn't matter, what makes Toxic Deluge, the card you keep bringing up, so good?
I am saying that white isn't as far behind as others are saying. I'm saying it doesn't need to be #1 to be good, and that it sees plenty of play in multiple formats as is.
I guess unless I believe the sky is constantly falling, I'm a contrarian.
Does everyone on this forum have some sort of personality disorder or something? It is like always so all or nothing with you people.
Not sure where you see either a personal attack, or where you've done anything to earn my respect, but I have treated you with all due dignity. I am not accountable for the thinness of your skin.
Black is the premier color of targeted removal and will likely never get a spell as good as Swords/ Path for it. White is already ahead and it's not the best color at it.
Black has Toxic Deluge and Damnation for board wipes that come close to on par with what white gets. None of the others you listed are better or more efficient than white's board wipes. 2/99 cards.
How does "success in Standard" equate to "has the best 1 and 2 drops"? Bizarre leap you keep taking for reasons I don't have the crayons to figure out.
Damn, it's not the 4th most winning color. Guess underperformed for 2 weeks in a single format is all the data needed. Thanks for the link?
Oh wait
https://aetherhub.com/MTGA-Decks/Standard-BO1/
Is it universally acknowledged, or are you in a bubble? I forgot when you were elected to speak for the community.
White is not the strongest color but it isn't as straight cut trash as your whining implies it is.
They have the most and most efficient board wipes. Black gets one that sorta compares. Show me the board wipes outside of white then. Why bother saying you can provide examples without actually doing so?
You said white has "the best 1 and 2 drops," which would seem to imply they outclass the 1 and 2 drops from each other color. Since those other colors also have competitive 1 and 2 drops, and their decks have between marginal and significantly higher representation / win rates in standard than white, I would (again) argue that your basic premise is patently untrue. My source(s) for the data points I provided were mtgdecks.net and mtggoldfish.com, in that order; where are you getting "4th most winning deck" from?[/quote]
Where are you getting 20% of the field from?
How does best 1 and 2 drops suddenly mean best win rates?
Can you stay on topic, or do you need more hand holding than I am providing?
For context, the entire point of this discussion was about white's intrinsic qualities, for better or for worse. Out of all the individual colors, it's the one that suffers most due to past and current design philosophies, so it's hard to have a conversation about how to improve on that core concept without judging it against itself, or against other colors, on a 1-for-1 basis. I would argue that there's actually a strong case to be made for every mono color deck in EDH except white, but that's a bit of a digression (I'm not even going to address the concept of competitive EDH). White is, inarguably, the absolute worst color in EDH, by itself or paired with others. Comparatively speaking, no other color suffers from such an abject lack of power, speed, or flexibility, and the strengths that used to be the hallmark of white are increasingly trivialized as more and more sets are released. What's the point of having the best removal from yesteryear if you still can't manage a viable win condition? [/quote]
Sounds like you play a really.insular meta. That sucks
What black point removal in commander even comes close to Path or Swords? If you jump formats between discussions, you lose coherence. Nothing has been proven, either, besides your inconsistency.
So Black's one good board wipe in commander doesn't equate to 1 of 99 cards, but white's plethora of them is meaningless?
So 1/20 winning decks play monowhite, and Black got a high synergy deck? Did I say it was the best deck? No, but it is still in the top tier. It's literally the 4th most winning deck in Standard.
Almost no monocolor decks do great in commander. It's a 4-5 color format. It gets plenty of cards to play in those decks, and sees plenty of casual play in monocolor. If you want to play competitively, you have to accept that you can't always play your pet favorites and win consistently. This has been Magic forever.
Skyclave Apparition, Kabira Takedown, I mean, even Glass Casket sees far more play than the blue removal spells that have supposedly been better than white's.
What good green 1 drops are there anymore? Even it's 2 drops are pretty iffy.
Baneslayer Angel is currently in Standard.
Ignoring that white is the only good color for board wipes in Standard is a hilarious way to believe that white doesn't get good removal.
Patently false because of people's poor short term memories is pretty funny. Please, go on more about how three people on a tiny forum can't remember the last 3 years.
Wait, so when you criticize White's point removal, you mention it only gets it in nonstandard formats, but the only better board wipes you mention are also outside of Standard? Weird dichotomy there.
Path to Exile isn't in Standard or Historic. It's legal in Modern, Legacy, Vintage, and Commander. Swords only misses that list by 1 format. They aren't that limited in legality.
Even in standard, white gets Skyclave Apparition, Shatter the Sky, Doomskar, and Sigrid, God-Favored as solid removal options that all see play.
In Commander you get Terminus, Catastrophe, Cataclysm, Winds of Abandon, Wrath of God, and more for very playable board wipes.
White weenie is currently a top tier build in standard. Not much of a memory if it can't remember things currently occurring. White almost always has multiple 2/1 for 1s with upside in standard, and many see play in other formats as well. In addition, it gets things like Mother of Runes in the 1 slot.
Odric, Luminarch Marshal is a popular casual Commander card, Angel of Invention saw plenty of play in it's standard, as did Aerial Responder. Zetalpa, Primal Dawn is a fairly popular finisher in commander, as is Akroma's Will. You also have things like Elite Inquisitor that show up pretty frequently and are almost keyword soup.
It seems the issue has less to do with white's flaws and more to do with your analytical skills.