There's just no other way to describe it. Empowering them by building around them is smart, yes-but just add them to anything in relevant colors and see if they don't perform on-par with other widely used draw engines.
I've ran Recycle in Azusa and other builds several times. It takes each deck and immeadiately puts them over the top, as Gx based decks typically have all the mana they need to do what they're trying to do. In earnest, I've taken them out just to "tone" things down.
So they're sick, they're underplayed and under appreciated. Play them. They're good.
Losing Grim Monolith wouldn't be pointless, but would mean losing those magical turns where you can cast 6-7 CMC items on turn three with regularity.
I know this is late, but when it comes to Mana Rocks, Sharuum is actually VERY modular. That's part of the reason I've gone from "Run XYZ" to running whatever a pilot is comfortable with. It took me months to realize that Mox Opal wasn't always the best card, even longer to realize how little I actually liked Mox Diamond.
The Signets, Prophetic Prism and Sol ring are all great starting points. And Chromatic Lantern, unless it's shot up to a gazillion dollars beneath my nose or something.
As for BNG...
I won't say I hate the set. But I've glanced over it for several podcasts/articles I've had to write. Absolutely NOTHING sticks out at me for Sharuum. The Cornicopia is a worse Everflowing Chalice/Mox Opal.
Plus, it's CMC has to be stupid-high to fire off.
Think about it like this-you have to spend 3 mana to make just ONE with it.
Isn't there a better use of that mana?
I'd change up what decks I'm playing.
If I keep cycling, everyone will generalize their answers instead of building to target one major thing I use, and I can keep my decks intact (for the most part).
^this is the best strategy.
Threats vs. Answers isn't a static problem. It's an organic issue, which can change literally game session to game session. I personally like running more answers because (in my meta at least) a good answer can blow out another player for a few turns. However, depending the deck's speed, blunt force is sometimes called for. If you can ramp into a huge token-count Avenger of Zendikar early, I doubt many players are going to be able to consistently answer it.
Hey Jack, I saw the tournament report that you posted up a few weeks back, that was on a store that just started running EDH tourneys in your area. Did you ever attend another EDH event after the report you wrote on? I'm wondering how prevalent the Gods were in the decks at your LGS.
I'm taking a week or two off in February and am thinking of hitting up a tournament, either EDH or vintage (and playing Sharuum, they might as well be the same thing).
Things actually took a strange turn at the store.
The TO apparently found that thread, then instituted an honest-to-goodness point system that didn't rely on popular opinion to work. A friend of mine attended their second event and had a good time. After that event however, the TO said they weren't having anymore until "They figured out how to run it". My guess is that their regulars all complained about how to have "Fun", which seems incredibly silly.
I could get into a rant here about that, but I'll spare you guys, haha.
The meta was strange-there wasn't a lot of outright combo, so I was awkwardly positioned. Almost every deck that was running Red was running Purphoros and some sort of mass token producer, ala Avenger of Zendikar or something else.
It was enough of a problem to make me very aware of my utter lack of spot removal in my previous incarnation of this deck. And enough to make me NEVER want to see the Purphoros player let him resolve, or stay in play very long.
Ereboros also made an appearance, but wasn't scary in the least. The fact I couldn't gain life off of my thopter tokens was annoying, but irrelevant in the end compared to the CA generated by Ereboros. An indestructable card draw engine is actually really good, who knew?
The other gods made NO appearance. Which figures, as they're better for constructed formats anyways.
There was an unusually high amount of Nekusar there as well. Alongside Oloros, I figure they'll be "hot" for the next few months and make up at least some portion of a metagame. They're lazy generals that don't really require much work to be great, and enable several degenerative strategies. Be prepared.
Welcome back buddy! We missed your insight on these boards. I agree 100% that there needs to be some artifact form of exile for enchantments and artifacts accessible to Esper. The Gods have been beatable, but definately irritating.
For me, All is Dust has been my catch-all, but I am not comfortable with just using All is Dust and recycling Bitter Ordeal to pre-emp the Gods. I've considered Detention Sphere, but still can't wrap myself around using an O-Ring to deal with a God, because the eventual wipe will bring it back out. My group plays around O-Ring all the time, and Detention Sphere in other decks has been no different.
I'd like to see a Brittle Effigy that hits artifacts and enchantments.
This is where we get into this slot being largely determined by Meta.
Where I'm from, the gods go hand in hand with Token based strategies. Honestly, Return From Dust is the card I use if I go out of town, but D. Sphere is too good to not use in most general applications.
As for using an O-ring style effect (as Journey to Nowhere could fit here as well), another meta-specific reason-few people pack necessary spot removal here. You can reasonably combo off before someone can get an answer.
Oblation is still a reasonable choice in most cases, as it can buy you a ton of time. Plus, at least around here, since the gods have been getting spoiled quite a few players I know have been gearing up to build Voltron (general damage) style builds.
And thanks...hopefully I'll be posting here regularly again. I had to get away from Sharuum for a while to truly appreciate what the deck can do, and what it needs to do better.
On another note, I have been playing Sharuum for awhile now and I love it, but my playgroup is getting tired of combo and letting me know about it, so I am considering superfriends control with contagion clasp and engine for a proliferation theme. Any thoughts on the idea, anyone?
I actually prefer Oblation for this because it has much more widespread application, but it's a very meta-dependent problem. Porphorus or however it's spelled has been the most problematic Enchantment recently, but Detention Sphere still handles him quite nicely. I'm just advising added redundancy.
I think superfriends esper could work-plenty of excellent walkers in the colors. Which were you thinking about using?
Man, it’s been a while.
I’m happy to see this thread carried on for a while after I stopped posting. At the time, I had just gotten bored with Sharuum-but like a bad Ex girlfriend, I just couldn’t stay away forever.
I finally have a pretty decent weekly CMDR group set up, and over the last few months I’ve been getting a LOT of testing in with sharuum. I’ve a few new developments, though the deck might look largely the same.
Here’s my new list for 2014.
The mana base has been the most significant overhaul. I’ve dropped Mox Diamond and Mox Opal, as taking care of the real estate enabled me to have access to the colors I needed, and when. The inclusion of Chromatic Star and sphere allowed some synergy with Salvaging Station while giving me access to additional card draw.
Orim’s Chant is amazing. I had originally considered Thoughtsieze, Duress, Silence and others, but ended up settling on OC due to the fact it does something counter magic and targeted discard fail to.
It buys you time. It buys you time by removing the control player’s counters (as they have to counter it, or you combo off). It stops other combo players from busting off. It also occasionally buys you a turn from the agro player. I absolutely love it, and can’t recommend the card enough.
Wurmcoil Engine has been a late addition, as I finally wised up and realized it would feed Kuldotha Forgemaster and other effects while still providing a suitable body for defense. The lifegain has been nice, though it makes a terrible target for control magic effects.
I would like to address something else-Sharuum needs either an exile effect for Artifacts and Enchantments, or something similar to Detention Sphere. Though very meta specific, the Theros gods have been an otherwise unsolvable problem. Tuck effects are also suitable, so be sure to run Oblation or others in your 100.
All the same, it’s good to be back! I’ll try to provide regular updates when I can!
Average CMC for DC should be somewhere between 2-3. That's mostly insignificant in CMDR, especially for an additional card per turn. I utilized DC and others in a deck a year ago. Keep the CMC as low as possible, and be sure to include as much library manipulation as possible.
Anything above 3 is dangerously high. Why do your opponent's work for them?
Also, have you considered Necrologia? Sometimes it fits better in decks if DC doesn't.
Players make the game. Not their cards, regardless of their authenticity.
I don't mind proxies, and I'm sure I've played against fakes. But the cards are inconsequential to the person. If someone has to buy a "proxy" to complete their deck and are an excellent sport/player, I don't care, because we're playing in a casual format with nothing "real" on the line. But if they're a terrible sport and are using proxies (obvious or otherwise), I'll think they're an enormous punk.
I've been playing Sharuum the Hegemon for 5 years.
Five years. Think about how long that really is.
The deck has outlasted various girlfriends, real friends, and jobs. I've tweaked it from a humble esper control deck into it's current interation, something between a combo and "answer" deck.
And I'm still not satisfied. I'm still pondering slots and more, and I couldn't be happier.
Sharuum is one of those decks that doesn't win the way it's intended. It's suppose to be a Combo deck, but usually I beat people silly with thopter tokens. I'm always seeking new ways to make it faster, more versatile and more.
When myself and a few others were regularly sharing tech on the Sharuum primer, there was a guy who had a non-combo focused build that made use of Arcuum Dagson to tutor for all relevant control pieces he needed to advance his board.
It was the tightest thinking. I'd actually do it myself if I had room in my own build, or the creatures to aid it.
First of all, I HATE that legacy has both made the deck this guy comes in scarce and the price of the card itself absurdly high.
Second, what do you all think of him in EDH?
I would LOVE to run one myself, if I can get my hands on it anyways, filling a similar role to Invisible Stalker. Fits in with the hard to block sub-theme my deck has, and is equally difficult to remove. In 1v1, outside of a board wipe he is not going anywhere, for the most part. He carries swords and jitte like a champ to boot.
No amount of equipment or player protection saves him or his pilot from politics. Played him, found him lacking, went for higher-profile/efficiency guys instead.
I absolutely love Sharuum. If the fact I've attempted to keep an active "primer" for her open and the fact I've played her for over 5 years says nothing else, she's undoubtedly my favorite card. She, simply put, does EVERYTHING.
There's just no other way to describe it. Empowering them by building around them is smart, yes-but just add them to anything in relevant colors and see if they don't perform on-par with other widely used draw engines.
I've ran Recycle in Azusa and other builds several times. It takes each deck and immeadiately puts them over the top, as Gx based decks typically have all the mana they need to do what they're trying to do. In earnest, I've taken them out just to "tone" things down.
So they're sick, they're underplayed and under appreciated. Play them. They're good.
I know this is late, but when it comes to Mana Rocks, Sharuum is actually VERY modular. That's part of the reason I've gone from "Run XYZ" to running whatever a pilot is comfortable with. It took me months to realize that Mox Opal wasn't always the best card, even longer to realize how little I actually liked Mox Diamond.
The Signets, Prophetic Prism and Sol ring are all great starting points. And Chromatic Lantern, unless it's shot up to a gazillion dollars beneath my nose or something.
As for BNG...
I won't say I hate the set. But I've glanced over it for several podcasts/articles I've had to write. Absolutely NOTHING sticks out at me for Sharuum. The Cornicopia is a worse Everflowing Chalice/Mox Opal.
Plus, it's CMC has to be stupid-high to fire off.
Think about it like this-you have to spend 3 mana to make just ONE with it.
Isn't there a better use of that mana?
^this is the best strategy.
Threats vs. Answers isn't a static problem. It's an organic issue, which can change literally game session to game session. I personally like running more answers because (in my meta at least) a good answer can blow out another player for a few turns. However, depending the deck's speed, blunt force is sometimes called for. If you can ramp into a huge token-count Avenger of Zendikar early, I doubt many players are going to be able to consistently answer it.
Things actually took a strange turn at the store.
The TO apparently found that thread, then instituted an honest-to-goodness point system that didn't rely on popular opinion to work. A friend of mine attended their second event and had a good time. After that event however, the TO said they weren't having anymore until "They figured out how to run it". My guess is that their regulars all complained about how to have "Fun", which seems incredibly silly.
I could get into a rant here about that, but I'll spare you guys, haha.
The meta was strange-there wasn't a lot of outright combo, so I was awkwardly positioned. Almost every deck that was running Red was running Purphoros and some sort of mass token producer, ala Avenger of Zendikar or something else.
It was enough of a problem to make me very aware of my utter lack of spot removal in my previous incarnation of this deck. And enough to make me NEVER want to see the Purphoros player let him resolve, or stay in play very long.
Ereboros also made an appearance, but wasn't scary in the least. The fact I couldn't gain life off of my thopter tokens was annoying, but irrelevant in the end compared to the CA generated by Ereboros. An indestructable card draw engine is actually really good, who knew?
The other gods made NO appearance. Which figures, as they're better for constructed formats anyways.
There was an unusually high amount of Nekusar there as well. Alongside Oloros, I figure they'll be "hot" for the next few months and make up at least some portion of a metagame. They're lazy generals that don't really require much work to be great, and enable several degenerative strategies. Be prepared.
This is where we get into this slot being largely determined by Meta.
Where I'm from, the gods go hand in hand with Token based strategies. Honestly, Return From Dust is the card I use if I go out of town, but D. Sphere is too good to not use in most general applications.
As for using an O-ring style effect (as Journey to Nowhere could fit here as well), another meta-specific reason-few people pack necessary spot removal here. You can reasonably combo off before someone can get an answer.
Oblation is still a reasonable choice in most cases, as it can buy you a ton of time. Plus, at least around here, since the gods have been getting spoiled quite a few players I know have been gearing up to build Voltron (general damage) style builds.
And thanks...hopefully I'll be posting here regularly again. I had to get away from Sharuum for a while to truly appreciate what the deck can do, and what it needs to do better.
I still can't say some of the curse words my opponent used.
I actually prefer Oblation for this because it has much more widespread application, but it's a very meta-dependent problem. Porphorus or however it's spelled has been the most problematic Enchantment recently, but Detention Sphere still handles him quite nicely. I'm just advising added redundancy.
I think superfriends esper could work-plenty of excellent walkers in the colors. Which were you thinking about using?
I’m happy to see this thread carried on for a while after I stopped posting. At the time, I had just gotten bored with Sharuum-but like a bad Ex girlfriend, I just couldn’t stay away forever.
I finally have a pretty decent weekly CMDR group set up, and over the last few months I’ve been getting a LOT of testing in with sharuum. I’ve a few new developments, though the deck might look largely the same.
Here’s my new list for 2014.
1x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Duplicant
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Thopter Assembly
1x magister Sphinx
1x Myr Battlesphere
Tutors:
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Transmute Artifact
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Intuition
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Entomb
1x Artificer’s Intuition
Draw:
1x Windfall
1x Forbidden Alchemy
1x Lim-Dul’s Vault
1x Rhystic Study
1x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
Ramp:
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Grim Monolith
1x Mana Vault
1x Chromatic Sphere
1x Chromatic Star
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Bloom
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal
Arti-cats and Kitty Toys:
1x Memory Jar
1x Salvaging Station
1x Scroll Rack
1x Trading Post
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Sculpting Steel
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Time Sieve
1x Sword of The Meek
1x Mindslaver
1x Dispeller’s Capsule
1x Executioner’s Capsule
1x Voltaic Key
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Voyager Staff
1x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Expedition Map
1x Aether Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Tezzeret The Seeker
1x Karn Liberated
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Spells:
1x Orim’s Chant
1x Unburial Rites
1x Bitter Ordeal
1x Detention Sphere
1x All is Dust
1x Animate Dead
1x Open The Vaults
Lands:
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Misty Rainforest
1x City of Brass
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Tolaria West
1x Isolated Chapel
1x Glimmervoid
1x Command Tower
1x Ancient Den
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x City of Traitors
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Buried Ruin
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Grand Coliseum
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Maze of Ith
1x Watery Grave
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Godless Shrine
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arcane Sanctum
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Marsh Flats
1x Arid Mesa
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Academy Ruin
1x Phyrexia’s Core
1x Strip Mine
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Wasteland
The mana base has been the most significant overhaul. I’ve dropped Mox Diamond and Mox Opal, as taking care of the real estate enabled me to have access to the colors I needed, and when. The inclusion of Chromatic Star and sphere allowed some synergy with Salvaging Station while giving me access to additional card draw.
Orim’s Chant is amazing. I had originally considered Thoughtsieze, Duress, Silence and others, but ended up settling on OC due to the fact it does something counter magic and targeted discard fail to.
It buys you time. It buys you time by removing the control player’s counters (as they have to counter it, or you combo off). It stops other combo players from busting off. It also occasionally buys you a turn from the agro player. I absolutely love it, and can’t recommend the card enough.
Wurmcoil Engine has been a late addition, as I finally wised up and realized it would feed Kuldotha Forgemaster and other effects while still providing a suitable body for defense. The lifegain has been nice, though it makes a terrible target for control magic effects.
I would like to address something else-Sharuum needs either an exile effect for Artifacts and Enchantments, or something similar to Detention Sphere. Though very meta specific, the Theros gods have been an otherwise unsolvable problem. Tuck effects are also suitable, so be sure to run Oblation or others in your 100.
All the same, it’s good to be back! I’ll try to provide regular updates when I can!
Anything above 3 is dangerously high. Why do your opponent's work for them?
Also, have you considered Necrologia? Sometimes it fits better in decks if DC doesn't.
I don't mind proxies, and I'm sure I've played against fakes. But the cards are inconsequential to the person. If someone has to buy a "proxy" to complete their deck and are an excellent sport/player, I don't care, because we're playing in a casual format with nothing "real" on the line. But if they're a terrible sport and are using proxies (obvious or otherwise), I'll think they're an enormous punk.
Five years. Think about how long that really is.
The deck has outlasted various girlfriends, real friends, and jobs. I've tweaked it from a humble esper control deck into it's current interation, something between a combo and "answer" deck.
And I'm still not satisfied. I'm still pondering slots and more, and I couldn't be happier.
Sharuum is one of those decks that doesn't win the way it's intended. It's suppose to be a Combo deck, but usually I beat people silly with thopter tokens. I'm always seeking new ways to make it faster, more versatile and more.
I'm not satisfied, but I'd be bored if I was.
It was the tightest thinking. I'd actually do it myself if I had room in my own build, or the creatures to aid it.
No amount of equipment or player protection saves him or his pilot from politics. Played him, found him lacking, went for higher-profile/efficiency guys instead.