MTG Salvation

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Was Martin Luther King, Jr against gay people because he was religious and a conservative?

He was religious, that's undisputed, but what kind of whacked out history have you read that makes you think he was a conservative?

Another “i m american thus conservative equals republican party” guy? Go read about conservatism (not american conservatism) and read his speachs etc.

Aside from being a preacher and therefore presumably in favor organized religion, what was at all conservative about him? The vast amount of his efforts were in direct opposition to the social structures and institutions of his day. There may exist conservatives who agree with his overall philosophy, but conservatism is not independent of the social structures around a person. A conservative declaring they agree with MLK does not make MLK conservative, heck even the Republican party does that constantly.

And yes, I'm American and that shapes how I view politics. I live in a country that's run by 2 fairly conservative parties, so I tend to think of the more conservative one as "the conservatives," but I'm perfectly capable of understanding what conservatism literally means.

Not to mention MLK was American so it's kind of pointless to try to judge his politics by another country's differing metric. It's either misguided or disingenuous to say MLK wasn't progressive because if he were in another country he might be judged differently. He was involved in influencing American politics first and foremost so he will obviously be referred to in the context he was in.

"But Bernie Sanders is actually a right wing conservative because if he were in Germany he would be" isn't the winning or even relevant argument some may think it is.

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WotC wants to be "liberal" because if they were "conservative" there wouldn't be gay/lesbian/trans characters because those are "sins against Jesus Christ our savior". There wouldn't be black characters because blacks are only poor thugs who glorify drugs and hookers.

...
man... take your pills before posting, plz

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Was Shalai suppose to be black?

she isn't "White" as of anglosaxan white, looks more latina to me, probably portuguese/spanish mixed with native american.

"We affirm that so-called marriage equality goes against the nuclear family and is harmful to society as a whole, and therefore condemn the homosexual lifestyle choice." - GOP Platform 2016/2020

"We condemn Black Lives Matter as a terrorist movement whose only purpose is to divide Americans and harass law enforcement." - GOP Platform 2016/2020

Quoted from their website. Any questions, or do you want to fire off a few more passive-aggressive remarks?

oh well here we go

if they were "conservative" there wouldn't be gay/lesbian/trans characters because those are "sins against Jesus Christ our savior"

"We affirm that so-called marriage equality goes against the nuclear family and is harmful to society as a whole, and therefore condemn the homosexual lifestyle choice." - GOP Platform 2016/2020

Quoting a political party that the majority calls themselves conservatives ( 69% of Republicans described themselves as "conservative", while 25% opted for the term "moderate", and another 5% self-identified as "liberal" - from Gallup) but the values they defend sometimes are in contrast with what other conservatives groups and autors defend. If you can only think about USA when you do your remarks then yes you have a point about the leaders of the republican party being biggots but that doesnt mean all republicans think the same as those. For exemple back in 2011 conservatives that made several donations to gop made several donations/gave financial suport to gay couples and gay rights organizations ... This despite being conservative and donating to the republican party (link soo ppl don't have to search themselves in internet archives etc https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/14/nyregion/donors-to-gop-are-backing-gay-marriage-push.html/ )

There wouldn't be black characters because blacks are only poor thugs who glorify drugs and hookers.

"We condemn Black Lives Matter as a terrorist movement whose only purpose is to divide Americans and harass law enforcement." - GOP Platform 2016/2020

Also condemning a movement that peached/agreed with radical protests and vandalism is not equal to being racists or to think that blacks("Afro-descendants" etc) are " only poor thugs who glorify drugs and hookers " like u wrote. Was Martin Luther King, Jr against gay people because he was religious and a conservative? Thats the same you are implying here.

Wish you americans could go to europe or latin america more. No, Conservatism is not about being anti gay anti black or whatever you think, it is more about defending the institutions: marriage (yes conservatives can be homosexuals), religion (yes christianity acepts homosexuals and blacks..., at least most do, yes we know that there plenty of churchs that condem homosexualism), nation and political/social institutions as well as civil rights.

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Where did I explicitly say that?

This concept of "you are what I am indoctrinated to perceive you to be" and this judgment of people based on thoughts someone is inferred to have is what unravels the liberal platform for me. It's a dangerous precedent that people don't realize is actually very regressive and primal, literally a witch trial. Liberals justify it because they believe it's justice for a good cause (opposing racism) even thought fundamentally, it is rooted in the same twisted hatred from which racism itself is derived, applied to new victims.

"Being mean to racists is just as bad as being racist" is another yikes take.

There's a difference between someone who is actually racist, and people you're inferring to be for the convenience of justifying lust for violence. Trail of mob-inferred thoughts is a witch hunt.

So what would you say about the people on this site screaming that Kaya's inclusion in Kaldheim is terrible? Because screaming for someone to excluded entirely based on the color of their skin IS THE TEXTBOOK DEFINITION OF RACISM.

Except I never said that. This may be the interpretation that is most convienent for you and your preconcieved agenda here, but I actually criticized Planeswalkers in general being Mary Sues that should be inferior to Legendary Creatures, especially after the Mending, but are not. This is an argument I've made in many threads in the past (Gideon vs. Ulamog, Gatewatch vs. Eldrazi, Kiora vs. Thassa, Jace, Sorin and Tamiyo vs. Avacyn, all Planeswalkers vs. Guild Leaders in War of the Spark, Nissa vs. Kefnet) and happened to make again in a thread about Kaya. People agreed with my stance that WOTC frequently kills off Legends instead of Planeswalkers to emphasize stakes, which feels cheap, but once that generalized statement was made in a Kaldheim thread that happened to have a black Planeswalker in it that I did not even specifically comment on, suddenly it became a topic of racism.

And that's why crying wolf is harming acknowledgement of genuine cases of racism. It's really juvenile.

You may have missed me making that statement so often because I did so in the Storyline threads more often, but it's been a consistent stance of mine.

Quote from Tiro of Meletis »

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How about don't get involved in politics at all, neither liberal nor conservative, and just be a card game company delivering a good fantasy product that is a fun escape for people from our modern dismal reality?

Also, I am pleased you put the bit concerning Jesus christ in quotes, because frankly, Christianity is a Arab/Jewish religion from the Middle East that clearly the West does not understand, and has clearly corrupted (erroneously utilizing it out of context to justify slavery for example) if it's being associated with homophobia, racism, or anything else hateful or divisive, considering its founding principles are love for all no matter what, forgiveness, lack of judgement etc. Jesus never even discusses homosexuality at all, presumably finding it irrelevent, and his followers are frequently alarmed throughout the entire New Testament, just from the events they recall, how he would dine with "sinners," save women from being stoned, treat them as equals (and often superiors) to men to the surprise of all, associated with people from various racial backgrounds giving no damn about societal rules (healing a Roman general's daughter despite them being the oppressors, the Samaritan woman at the well, etc.) I'll never forget when an annoying loud liberal atheist friend of mine kept trying to paint Jesus as some misogynist based on his personal experience with misogynist christians (who are therefore hypocrites) until I began referencing all the examples in which Jesus actually favors women in the Bible, including the scene between Mary and Martha, in which Mary actually has the right idea all along. Don't forget the three Marys at the foot of the cross - women are essential to Christianity with the Virgin Mary essentially occupying a goddess-like role in Catholicism (the original Christianity) - so do all Arab Christians who literally live where Jesus walked and prayed a favor and separate the flawed human western institution of religion and the church (and all their abhorrent and hypocritical sins) from the actual founder of Christianity, his message, and his actual doctrine.

"BUT TIRO SAID RACIST THINGS!" - Please also spare me from this indoctrinated mob mentality, that lynches people to compensate, repeating the same sins on new victims to somehow atone. People who are neutral want products independent of politics because we're sick of how divisive and militant people are, even when brandishing genuinely good causes. There is this tone of retribution and exclusion that makes a lot of these otherwise good virtues seem more like revenge than actual altruism, and that is the real reason it's opposed. Reasonable neutral people don't like supporting something that feels like it explicitly excludes people for social justice. Because the exclusion itself was the original issue that created the obvious disparities (which do indeed exist for racial and socio-economic groups, and not just Black Americans, but very much including them regardless) that we contend with now. If there seemed to be more attempts to address more than just the extremes, it would feel more genuine. Also, I criticized Planeswalkers in general in a Kaya thread, not her specifically, and I'll reiterate that this product appearing during Black History Month is appropriate, even if I feel not enough is being done to positively impact male development. People seem to think creating new disparities between men and women is somehow going to resolve the issue of "toxic masculinity" using force instead of proper development for young men to address the issue. Bullying or depriving men into submission is only creating new disparities instead of addressing the root cause - the healthy emotional development of young boys into good men. But I digress. I know better than to expect WOTC to fund raise anything supporting young boys - it's all about pulling the lever to the extreme other side for them, until it is inevitably too far, and then in a century or so we find ourselves yanking it to the next extreme all over again.

Anyway, my point is, conservatism is not racism, homophobia, or anything anyone is indoctrinated to believe it is. And if you're incapable of understanding what it really means for individual people, then that sounds like a good reason to keep politics out of games.

Ah, so you're one of those people that equates Black History Month with reverse racism.

Where did I explicitly say that?

This concept of "you are what I am indoctrinated to perceive you to be" and this judgment of people based on thoughts someone is inferred to have is what unravels the liberal platform for me. It's a dangerous precedent that people don't realize is actually very regressive and primal, literally a witch trial. Liberals justify it because they believe it's justice for a good cause (opposing racism) even thought fundamentally, it is rooted in the same twisted hatred from which racism itself is derived, applied to new victims.

"Being mean to racists is just as bad as being racist" is another yikes take.

There's a difference between someone who is actually racist, and people you're inferring to be for the convenience of justifying lust for violence. Trail of mob-inferred thoughts is a witch hunt.

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There were no bigoted comments then, only ignorant people bending over backwards to find a way to interpret legitimate criticism as bigotry, which is a weak method of dismissing people some are incapable of debating.

This specifically doesn't bother me since it's Black History month, although it's becoming painfully obvious lately that MTG wants to be political, and decidedly liberal. Which is ironically making it feel unwelcome, because if most people are like me, people want media and products independent of something inherently conflicting like politics.

WotC wants to be "liberal" because if they were "conservative" there wouldn't be gay/lesbian/trans characters because those are "sins against Jesus Christ our savior". There wouldn't be black characters because blacks are only poor thugs who glorify drugs and hookers.

How about don't get involved in politics at all, neither liberal nor conservative, and just be a card game company delivering a good fantasy product that is a fun escape for people from our modern dismal reality?

Also, I am pleased you put the bit concerning Jesus christ in quotes, because frankly, Christianity is a Arab/Jewish religion from the Middle East that clearly the West does not understand, and has clearly corrupted (erroneously utilizing it out of context to justify slavery for example) if it's being associated with homophobia, racism, or anything else hateful or divisive, considering its founding principles are love for all no matter what, forgiveness, lack of judgement etc. Jesus never even discusses homosexuality at all, presumably finding it irrelevent, and his followers are frequently alarmed throughout the entire New Testament, just from the events they recall, how he would dine with "sinners," save women from being stoned, treat them as equals (and often superiors) to men to the surprise of all, associated with people from various racial backgrounds giving no damn about societal rules (healing a Roman general's daughter despite them being the oppressors, the Samaritan woman at the well, etc.) I'll never forget when an annoying loud liberal atheist friend of mine kept trying to paint Jesus as some misogynist based on his personal experience with misogynist christians (who are therefore hypocrites) until I began referencing all the examples in which Jesus actually favors women in the Bible, including the scene between Mary and Martha, in which Mary actually has the right idea all along. Don't forget the three Marys at the foot of the cross - women are essential to Christianity with the Virgin Mary essentially occupying a goddess-like role in Catholicism (the original Christianity) - so do all Arab Christians who literally live where Jesus walked and prayed a favor and separate the flawed human western institution of religion and the church (and all their abhorrent and hypocritical sins) from the actual founder of Christianity, his message, and his actual doctrine.

"BUT TIRO SAID RACIST THINGS!" - Please also spare me from this indoctrinated mob mentality, that lynches people to compensate, repeating the same sins on new victims to somehow atone. People who are neutral want products independent of politics because we're sick of how divisive and militant people are, even when brandishing genuinely good causes. There is this tone of retribution and exclusion that makes a lot of these otherwise good virtues seem more like revenge than actual altruism, and that is the real reason it's opposed. Reasonable neutral people don't like supporting something that feels like it explicitly excludes people for social justice. Because the exclusion itself was the original issue that created the obvious disparities (which do indeed exist for racial and socio-economic groups, and not just Black Americans, but very much including them regardless) that we contend with now. If there seemed to be more attempts to address more than just the extremes, it would feel more genuine. Also, I criticized Planeswalkers in general in a Kaya thread, not her specifically, and I'll reiterate that this product appearing during Black History Month is appropriate, even if I feel not enough is being done to positively impact male development. People seem to think creating new disparities between men and women is somehow going to resolve the issue of "toxic masculinity" using force instead of proper development for young men to address the issue. Bullying or depriving men into submission is only creating new disparities instead of addressing the root cause - the healthy emotional development of young boys into good men. But I digress. I know better than to expect WOTC to fund raise anything supporting young boys - it's all about pulling the lever to the extreme other side for them, until it is inevitably too far, and then in a century or so we find ourselves yanking it to the next extreme all over again.

Anyway, my point is, conservatism is not racism, homophobia, or anything anyone is indoctrinated to believe it is. And if you're incapable of understanding what it really means for individual people, then that sounds like a good reason to keep politics out of games.

Ah, so you're one of those people that equates Black History Month with reverse racism.

Where did I explicitly say that?

This concept of "you are what I am indoctrinated to perceive you to be" and this judgment of people based on thoughts someone is inferred to have is what unravels the liberal platform for me. It's a dangerous precedent that people don't realize is actually very regressive and primal, literally a witch trial. Liberals justify it because they believe it's justice for a good cause (opposing racism) even thought fundamentally, it is rooted in the same twisted hatred from which racism itself is derived, applied to new victims.

Quote from Tiro of Meletis »

Quote from LilianaxChandra »

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Quote from Decadent_Creed »

As usual people have to act foolish and reveal their prejudices and racial hate whenever a member of a minority group is featured on a Magic card. Remember when Kaya got a Magic card in Kaldheim and that was somehow taken as an invitation to say bigoted things? Just keep it to yourself, guys

There were no bigoted comments then, only ignorant people bending over backwards to find a way to interpret legitimate criticism as bigotry, which is a weak method of dismissing people some are incapable of debating.

This specifically doesn't bother me since it's Black History month, although it's becoming painfully obvious lately that MTG wants to be political, and decidedly liberal. Which is ironically making it feel unwelcome, because if most people are like me, people want media and products independent of something inherently conflicting like politics.

WotC wants to be "liberal" because if they were "conservative" there wouldn't be gay/lesbian/trans characters because those are "sins against Jesus Christ our savior". There wouldn't be black characters because blacks are only poor thugs who glorify drugs and hookers.

How about don't get involved in politics at all, neither liberal nor conservative, and just be a card game company delivering a good fantasy product that is a fun escape for people from our modern dismal reality?

Also, I am pleased you put the bit concerning Jesus christ in quotes, because frankly, Christianity is a Arab/Jewish religion from the Middle East that clearly the West does not understand, and has clearly corrupted (erroneously utilizing it out of context to justify slavery for example) if it's being associated with homophobia, racism, or anything else hateful or divisive, considering its founding principles are love for all no matter what, forgiveness, lack of judgement etc. Jesus never even discusses homosexuality at all, presumably finding it irrelevent, and his followers are frequently alarmed throughout the entire New Testament, just from the events they recall, how he would dine with "sinners," save women from being stoned, treat them as equals (and often superiors) to men to the surprise of all, associated with people from various racial backgrounds giving no damn about societal rules (healing a Roman general's daughter despite them being the oppressors, the Samaritan woman at the well, etc.) I'll never forget when an annoying loud liberal atheist friend of mine kept trying to paint Jesus as some misogynist based on his personal experience with misogynist christians (who are therefore hypocrites) until I began referencing all the examples in which Jesus actually favors women in the Bible, including the scene between Mary and Martha, in which Mary actually has the right idea all along. Don't forget the three Marys at the foot of the cross - women are essential to Christianity with the Virgin Mary essentially occupying a goddess-like role in Catholicism (the original Christianity) - so do all Arab Christians who literally live where Jesus walked and prayed a favor and separate the flawed human western institution of religion and the church (and all their abhorrent and hypocritical sins) from the actual founder of Christianity, his message, and his actual doctrine.

"BUT TIRO SAID RACIST THINGS!" - Please also spare me from this indoctrinated mob mentality, that lynches people to compensate, repeating the same sins on new victims to somehow atone. People who are neutral want products independent of politics because we're sick of how divisive and militant people are, even when brandishing genuinely good causes. There is this tone of retribution and exclusion that makes a lot of these otherwise good virtues seem more like revenge than actual altruism, and that is the real reason it's opposed. Reasonable neutral people don't like supporting something that feels like it explicitly excludes people for social justice. Because the exclusion itself was the original issue that created the obvious disparities (which do indeed exist for racial and socio-economic groups, and not just Black Americans, but very much including them regardless) that we contend with now. If there seemed to be more attempts to address more than just the extremes, it would feel more genuine. Also, I criticized Planeswalkers in general in a Kaya thread, not her specifically, and I'll reiterate that this product appearing during Black History Month is appropriate, even if I feel not enough is being done to positively impact male development. People seem to think creating new disparities between men and women is somehow going to resolve the issue of "toxic masculinity" using force instead of proper development for young men to address the issue. Bullying or depriving men into submission is only creating new disparities instead of addressing the root cause - the healthy emotional development of young boys into good men. But I digress. I know better than to expect WOTC to fund raise anything supporting young boys - it's all about pulling the lever to the extreme other side for them, until it is inevitably too far, and then in a century or so we find ourselves yanking it to the next extreme all over again.

Anyway, my point is, conservatism is not racism, homophobia, or anything anyone is indoctrinated to believe it is. And if you're incapable of understanding what it really means for individual people, then that sounds like a good reason to keep politics out of games.

Quote from SpeedGrapher »

Listen, we've had this conversation already about other products Wizards has released. Everyone on this website is an extreme liberal. Two generations are brainwashed extreme liberals. If you argue against extreme liberalism you will be shouted down. You will be hunted to the point of losing your job or worse. There are all kinds of news stories like that and it's disgusting.
You have to understand the rational arguments are over. Just enjoy the societal collapse. Arguing against the ideology behind this product is a massive waste of time.
In the context of a product available for purchase that you disagree with there is only one solution of not buying the product.
Solution: Don't buy the product.

Quote from Tiro of Meletis »

Has WOTC ever done anything for men? Young men? Men of color, even? Just curious. There's all this criticism of "toxic masculinity" but no attempts to cultivate healthy male development. More men are in prisons, dying in wars, expected to pay the bill on dates, have their abuse and emotional turmoils dismissed and told to "man up" and here we are.

That said, I like the art for Ponder, especially featuring known legends, and I'm not going to knock something for charity during an appropriate month. I can understand some frustration with how one-sided WOTC has been, but look no further than White in EDH to understand why. They get wrapped up sometimes in linear thinking. Basri is our only Arabic character so... there's more on the racial spectrum guys. But again, it's Black History Month.

Quote from WarMachinePrime »

None of you will change my mind, it is set. You won't do it so don't bother. Stop trying to force your views onto me. I'm not doing that to any of you, just stating my own opinion of which I am entitled to. We agree to disagree and move on. This will be my last post on this subject. Lets see if the rest of you can let it go, I bet not.

Quote from leslak »

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Quote from leslak »

Was Martin Luther King, Jr against gay people because he was religious and a conservative?

He was religious, that's undisputed, but what kind of whacked out history have you read that makes you think he was a conservative?

Another “i m american thus conservative equals republican party” guy? Go read about conservatism (not american conservatism) and read his speachs etc.

Quote from JuiceBOX »

Kaya is my favorite MTG character atm, and I am loving that Teferi is back. it is really nice having people of color represented in MTG.

I just wish there was not the showboating to go with all of it, and that things like this could be done in silence and everyone who makes the game and plays the game not bat an eye about it.

Man what a world that would be.

Quote from Werewolf_Rawr »

So much woke in Magic: the Gathering where escapism should be at it's peak. Glad to see so many woke people on this forum too. Glad y'all have a place to remind everyone how with it you are. Product is 100% pandering. Could've released this at any time - but it wasn't, it was done now. And that's why it's off. It has nothing to do with the product itself and some of you can't see that. That being said, this is nothing to be surprised about from WOTC.

Quote from mikeyG »

Wait, WotC is doing a great thing for Black girls, and your first thought was "what about me?" Yikes.

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Was Shalai suppose to be black?

Quote from Dusque »

I love products like this because they get all the right people super upset lol.

Quote from LilianaxChandra »

This is the old question "Why isn't there a White History Month?" rephrased. There are tons of products that target or glorify men in Magic's history. It's called "Virtually every set".