I've actually asked two different judges their oppinion on this ruling.
One agreed that the ruling was ambiguous, but is considering my understanding to be wrong.
The other one stated that I was wrong, but somehow to admit the ruling was unclear. I discovered later that this Judge is entitled to provide [O] rulings, so I guess the final word would be that I'm wrong. I'm still hoping for an answer from the rules manager on this topic, since I still think there's something fishy with this rule.
I guess there's no point to keep this topic going, unless an official answer is provided.
Similarly to how a spell with multiple targets will still resolve and do as much as it can even if one of the targets is gone you still have the +1. If you think about it as one ability it tries to give first strike but it can't so it moves on and gives just +1/+1.
I'm sorry, but is this claim backed up by any actual rule? Cause I've just quoted a rule that actually says the opposite. Perhaps there is another rule I'm missing, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading, and I'm fine discussing that! But I'm not inclined to blindly follow claims that aren't back-up by any rule.
For the record, if instead of Stromkirk Captain, the effect was produced by an instant/sorcery/ability resolving, I would agree with you. Cause this case is handled by:
If a resolving spell or ability creates a continuous effect that would add the specified ability to such an object, that part of that continuous effect does not apply; however, other parts of that continuous effect will still apply, and that resolving spell or ability can still create other continuous effects.
But my case is different, since my continous effect if created by a static ability, not a spell/ability resolving.
Just to make it clear, I'm not contesting the fact that Stromkirk Captain effect is (or should be) applied in different layers.
However, the rulings of C.R. 113.11 says:
Continuous effects created by static abilities that would add the specified ability won’t apply to that object.
It doesn't state that only the parts of the effect that apply in this layer aren't applied. It states that "Continuous effect (...) won't apply to that object."
Since the Gaining First Strike and Getting +1/+1 are parts of a single continuous effect (despite them being applied it different layers), it means, from what I understand, that the whole effect shouldn't be applied (so no +1/+1).
Alternatively, if you believe that C.R. 113.11's last sentence could be read as "Continuous effects won't apply to that object if they're created by static abilities that would add the specified ability", then that is an ambiguity in that rule.
That's exactly my understanding of the rule (which I find highly surprising), and this is why I'm coming here to see if anyone has a definite answer for this.
Well worded as it is, Stromkirk Captain does look like a unique continuous effect (being applied in serveral different layers as you mention, I agree, but a single continous effect as a whole nonetheless).
So your understanding is that, for the purpose of C.R. 113.11, you have to split Stromkirk Captain continuous effect in two different parts?
While I would agree if the continuous effect was created by resolving a spell or an ability:
If a resolving spell or ability creates a continuous effect that would add the specified ability to such an object, that part of that continuous effect does not apply; however, other parts of that continuous effect will still apply, and that resolving spell or ability can still create other continuous effects.
my understanding of the rule for static abilities is different from yours.
The rule states that:
Continuous effects created by static abilities that would add the specified ability won’t apply to that object.
So, in this case, since the whole effect is "Gain First Strike and Get +1/+1", and since the rule don't allow us to only apply part of the continuous effect for static abilities (like they would do for a spell/ability resolving), my understanding is that none of my Vampires would get +1/+1.
My opponent has an Archetype of Courage and I have a Stromkirk Captain on the battlefield. Is it correct to assume that none of my vampires will get first strike nor +1/+1 (according to rule 113.11)?
113.11. Effects can stop an object from having a specified ability. These effects say that the object “can’t have” that ability. If the object has that ability, it loses it. It’s also impossible for an effect to add that ability to the object. If a resolving spell or ability creates a continuous effect that would add the specified ability to such an object, that part of that continuous effect does not apply; however, other parts of that continuous effect will still apply, and that resolving spell or ability can still create other continuous effects. Continuous effects created by static abilities that would add the specified ability won’t apply to that object.
As stated, before applying any of the effects, only Conspiracy is dependent on another effect (Opalescence). This means, that as per 613.7b, Conspiracy has to wait until after Opalescence has been applied. The independent effects are still applied in time stamp order. So if Opalescence has an older time stamp than Dralnu's Crusade, it is applied first, which makes Dralnu's Crusade dependent on Conspiracy (if Goblin was chosen), making the Crusade wait until after Conspiracy has been applied (613.7c). If the Crusade has an older time stamp than Opalescence, it is applied first as usual within the time stamp system, because dependency does not yet cause changes in the order.
That is my take on applying these rules.
I've actually realised that I made a mistake in my question. I indeed meant that Crusade has the oldest timestamp, not the latest one. My apologies for the confusion here.
So thanks Rezzahan for your answer, it confirms my understanding of the rules here.
I do agree that your answer is what the logical outcome should be. However I can't find how rules are backing this up. More specifically, I can't find anything that backs up the "chains" of dependencies.
The relevant rules I found are:
613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
613.7c After each effect is applied, the order of remaining effects is reevaluated and may change if an effect that has not yet been applied becomes dependent on or independent of one or more other effects that have not yet been applied.
The game only define what two different effects being in a "dependency relation" means, but never mentions that any other non-applied effect should be taken into account when doing so.
An effect is said to “depend on” another if (...) applying the other would change (...) what it applies to
.
So once again, my conclusion is, before applying any of these three effects:
Conspiracy depends on Opalescence
Opalescence is independent
Dralnu's Crusade is independent
Hence the conclusion in my previous post. I have the feeling that this doesn't make sense, but can't find any rule to prove it.
Well, your answer clearly gives a different outcome from the one I'm expecting.
Do you mind explaining me where I'm actually wrong?
My main point is that when you have to decide whether to apply Opalescence, Conspiracy or Dralnu's Crusade first, the game rules don't consider Dralnu's Crusade to be dependent on the other 2.
Here's the rule regarding dependency:
An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
I think we all agree that Conspiracy don't change the text nor the existence of Dralnu's effect, and that it doesn't change what it does. What may apply here is the "what it applies to" part.
At this time, since Opalescence isn't applied yet, applying Conspiracy first won't change what Dralnu's Crusade applies to (since before Conspiracy, there was no Golbins on the battlefield, and after Conspiracy, there is still no Goblins in play - remember that Opalescence effect still hasn't applied, so there's no creatures to be turned into Goblin by Conspiracy yet).
Therefore, my conclusion is that Dralnu's Crusade, in that case, don't depend on Conspiracy. Therefore timestamp should be used to decide wether Opalescence or Dralnu's Crusade should apply first.
If I have an Opalescence, a Conspiracy (set to Goblin), and a Dralnu's Crusade on the battlefield (and nothing else). Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp.
I am wondering in which order their effects are applied in Layer 4.
My understanding is:
Conspiracy depends on Opalescence (for obvious reasons)
Opalescence doesn't depend on anything (for obvious reasons as well)
Dralnu's Crusade doesn't depend on anything at this point (applying either Opalescence or Conspiracy won't change its text or modify its existence, neither what what it does, or what it applies to -Opalescence doesn't turn enchantments into Goblins, and Conspiracy doesn't turn anything into Goblin yet, since there is no creature on the board at this time-).
Therefore Conspiracy is applied last, and then timestamp order is used for Dralnu's Crusade & Opalescence. Since Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp, the effects are applied in the following order:
Dralnu's Crusade, Opalescence, and then Conspiracy.
Which means that none of these enchantments is a Goblin or a Zombie, is this correct?
I've actually asked two different judges their oppinion on this ruling.
One agreed that the ruling was ambiguous, but is considering my understanding to be wrong.
The other one stated that I was wrong, but somehow to admit the ruling was unclear. I discovered later that this Judge is entitled to provide [O] rulings, so I guess the final word would be that I'm wrong. I'm still hoping for an answer from the rules manager on this topic, since I still think there's something fishy with this rule.
I guess there's no point to keep this topic going, unless an official answer is provided.
Thanks everyone!
I'm sorry, but is this claim backed up by any actual rule? Cause I've just quoted a rule that actually says the opposite. Perhaps there is another rule I'm missing, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading, and I'm fine discussing that! But I'm not inclined to blindly follow claims that aren't back-up by any rule.
For the record, if instead of Stromkirk Captain, the effect was produced by an instant/sorcery/ability resolving, I would agree with you. Cause this case is handled by:
But my case is different, since my continous effect if created by a static ability, not a spell/ability resolving.
However, the rulings of C.R. 113.11 says:
It doesn't state that only the parts of the effect that apply in this layer aren't applied. It states that "Continuous effect (...) won't apply to that object."
Since the Gaining First Strike and Getting +1/+1 are parts of a single continuous effect (despite them being applied it different layers), it means, from what I understand, that the whole effect shouldn't be applied (so no +1/+1).
That's exactly my understanding of the rule (which I find highly surprising), and this is why I'm coming here to see if anyone has a definite answer for this.
So your understanding is that, for the purpose of C.R. 113.11, you have to split Stromkirk Captain continuous effect in two different parts?
While I would agree if the continuous effect was created by resolving a spell or an ability:
my understanding of the rule for static abilities is different from yours.
The rule states that:
So, in this case, since the whole effect is "Gain First Strike and Get +1/+1", and since the rule don't allow us to only apply part of the continuous effect for static abilities (like they would do for a spell/ability resolving), my understanding is that none of my Vampires would get +1/+1.
My opponent has an Archetype of Courage and I have a Stromkirk Captain on the battlefield. Is it correct to assume that none of my vampires will get first strike nor +1/+1 (according to rule 113.11)?
I've actually realised that I made a mistake in my question. I indeed meant that Crusade has the oldest timestamp, not the latest one. My apologies for the confusion here.
So thanks Rezzahan for your answer, it confirms my understanding of the rules here.
The relevant rules I found are:
The game only define what two different effects being in a "dependency relation" means, but never mentions that any other non-applied effect should be taken into account when doing so. .
So once again, my conclusion is, before applying any of these three effects:
Hence the conclusion in my previous post. I have the feeling that this doesn't make sense, but can't find any rule to prove it.
Do you mind explaining me where I'm actually wrong?
My main point is that when you have to decide whether to apply Opalescence, Conspiracy or Dralnu's Crusade first, the game rules don't consider Dralnu's Crusade to be dependent on the other 2.
Here's the rule regarding dependency:
I think we all agree that Conspiracy don't change the text nor the existence of Dralnu's effect, and that it doesn't change what it does. What may apply here is the "what it applies to" part.
At this time, since Opalescence isn't applied yet, applying Conspiracy first won't change what Dralnu's Crusade applies to (since before Conspiracy, there was no Golbins on the battlefield, and after Conspiracy, there is still no Goblins in play - remember that Opalescence effect still hasn't applied, so there's no creatures to be turned into Goblin by Conspiracy yet).
Therefore, my conclusion is that Dralnu's Crusade, in that case, don't depend on Conspiracy. Therefore timestamp should be used to decide wether Opalescence or Dralnu's Crusade should apply first.
If I have an Opalescence, a Conspiracy (set to Goblin), and a Dralnu's Crusade on the battlefield (and nothing else). Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp.
I am wondering in which order their effects are applied in Layer 4.
My understanding is:
Therefore Conspiracy is applied last, and then timestamp order is used for Dralnu's Crusade & Opalescence. Since Dralnu's Crusade has the latest timestamp, the effects are applied in the following order:
Dralnu's Crusade, Opalescence, and then Conspiracy.
Which means that none of these enchantments is a Goblin or a Zombie, is this correct?
(this example is inspired by the following article: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/layer-system-2009-11-05)