Magic has a lot less griffins than angels, and very few of them have been rares.
Angels, on the other hand, are white's flagship creature. If wizards decides to make a big white rare flyer, especially if they're thinking about making it costed for constructed, then chances are it's going to be an angel.
Griffins aren't particularly overcosted, they just haven't printed a lot of them, and most of them have been commons, which tend to have their costs tilted for limited more than constructed.
Of the griffins we do have, a few of them have worked out really well for limited, and so we keep seeing them get reprinted.
Cloudpost decks consistently beat blue decks, and in my testing many of them can completely ignore all sorts of hate. Countermagic only does so much, as eventually they'll just cast an emrakul and completely win. Soft counters are especially bad, as once they get enough mana, they can pay for spells such as Mana Leak or Spell Pierce.
Even blood moon only does so much v. the base green versions, as they have GSZ, All is Dust, and cheap acceleration that only uses one green mana.
What are good maindeck or sideboard cards that will work well in base-blue control decks against cloudpost decks?
Alot of HG, elves, living end, different varients of storm. There were roughly 28-34 players the last few tournaments. Not many straight aggro decks as I remember. Mainly combo, combo and more combo.
Sounds like combo's winning because nobody's playing control. Why not play something that tries to have good combo matchups?
I've played the deck extensively in real life against players that I can vouch for. Then I've had them play it against me. It was like +/- 75% on zoo,WW, and similar strategies. Against elves it is about 50/50 and depends solely on starting hand. To have greater than a 50% chance on it I would have to make a deck with nothing but hate cards, and get rolled by every other deck in the format because none of the hate cards translate well into other matches.
Traditionally, combo would beat aggro. It appears that this is the case here as well. I'm not surprised. Were you playing any combo hate in your lists? White weenie lists have traditionally been very niche decks, often at their best when they have cards that function as hate for the meta (kataki, ethersworn canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Wilt Leaf Liege, Silver Knight) while still beating down.
I'd bet a good blue control deck would have a much better time. That's certainly what my (albeit limited) testing has shown. Currently I'm working on a blue-red control list with maindeck blood moons, to try and combat 12-post. I'm betting that hypergenesis will have a ridiculously hard time winning against it, if it doesn't draw a godhand.
What kind of decks are your test group using against it? How many tournaments have you run where it dominated the top8?
Give me results, not a public opinion poll. I'm willing to bet money that if people sat down and had a few tournaments, within two months, hypergenesis would not be in the top 3 performing decks, less time if the tournament scene really caught on.
Whats valid is that they were at ends on what to pick. The ONLY reason they chose mirridin/8th over rav/9th was for the modern borders. Forsythe even said it was arbitrary to them.
As for a great card pool look how many staples are banned. Look how many aren't. We are not losing two blocks, but a few cards in core set, and few other cards. The rest of the cards going are arbitrary to the meta, because they are all underpowered limited trash.
After a quick scan over what would be lost if we shifted, I found over 50 playables (not even going that deep into what MIGHT be playable, just what I've seen played/was good in old extended/have played myself to good results)
Playable cards:
Blinkmoth Nexus (Tempered steel)
Arcbound Worker (Tempered steel)
Arcbound Ravager (Tempered steel)
Cranial Plating (Tempered steel)
Boseiju, who Shelters All(combo decks)
Chalice of the Void(12post, some control decks, good in sideboards)
City of Brass (not just a hypergenesis card)
Aether Vial (Many decks)
Cloudpost (12post)
Condescend (Tron, 12post, control)
Darksteel Citadel (Tempered steel, decks with trinket mage)
Death Cloud (BG decks with loam and smallpox)
Engineered Explosives
Eternal Witness
Flames of the Blood Hand
Ghostly Prison
Gifts Ungiven
Glimpse of Nature
Isamaru, Hound of Konda (White Weenie)
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (merfolk)
Lava Spike
Magma Jet
Minamo, School at Water's Edge (decks with Vendilion Clique)
Miren, the Moaning Well (Decks with Vedalken Shackles)
Molten Rain
Plow Under
Sakura-Tribe Elder (lark, scapeshift, Ugx control)
Staff of Domination (12post)
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Thirst for Knowledge
Vedalken Shackles
Wrench Mind
Combo playables:
Mesmeric Orb (dredge)
Channel the Suns
Desperate Ritual
Fecundity
Ideas Unbound
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (Extra redundancy in splinter twin decks)
Peer Through Depths
Serum Powder
Through The Breach
Sideboard cards:
Annul
Boil
Choke
Damping Matrix (kills stoneforge+equips, splinter twin, and more)
Defense grid
Ensnaring Bridge
Flashfires
Kataki, War's Wage
Persecute
Pulse of the Fields (teachings)
Threads of Disloyalty
Moving the cutoff would get rid of a lot of interesting room to build, especially in the way of Tempered Steel options, blue control options, anti-blue sideboard cards, red aggro, and the entire 12-post manabase. Note that I'm not even listing cards that are probably good enough but haven't shown up in any lists I've seen.
Hypergenesis doesn't have any digging, it mulligans terribly, and it has a hard time playing protection. Sure, the deck is powerful, but I think that there should be a few before we start calling for the card's banning.
Build up some evidence so we can actually see how the deck does in a few top8s, and then, maybe, it might be time for banning. We'll see.
Some people seem to think the deck is beatable. Others seem to think the deck is waaaay too good.
How about, as a way of figuring out who is right, we have a tournament or two (full bracket, not just single elimination) and see how hypergenesis does?
But what deck can afford to play Chalice for one? It shuts down everyone's one-drops, not just the opponent's.
I play chalice in my Uwr control sideboard. It shuts down 6 cards in my 75, and usually against the decks that I want chalice against, once chalice resolves I don't care. Heck, against hypergenesis I'm boarding out my spell snares anyway. The only deck that I'd like a chalice against but don't bring it in because it stops my spells is Zoo, and that's only because Knight of the Reliquary is too hard to answer without Path.
In my testing v. Hypergenesis, playing blue control, I have lost one match 1-2, won one match 2-0, and won two others 2-1. The die roll is important, but losing the die roll doesn't make the game unwinnable by any means. Chalice, spell burst, rune snag, ensnaring bridge, Vendilion Clique, spell pierce, blood moon, Jace, path, remand... there are so many good cards that do wonders v. Hypergen.
Arguing that the deck is broken because people need to sideboard for it doesn't really say a whole lot. This can be said about a lot of decks. It's not like game 1 is unwinnable, it's just that after sideboarding, hypergenesis is easier to deal with. The same can be said for a lot of decks.
Show and Tell
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Angels, on the other hand, are white's flagship creature. If wizards decides to make a big white rare flyer, especially if they're thinking about making it costed for constructed, then chances are it's going to be an angel.
Griffins aren't particularly overcosted, they just haven't printed a lot of them, and most of them have been commons, which tend to have their costs tilted for limited more than constructed.
Of the griffins we do have, a few of them have worked out really well for limited, and so we keep seeing them get reprinted.
Twin's not going anywhere. I'm sure there's a replacement for preordain.
Even blood moon only does so much v. the base green versions, as they have GSZ, All is Dust, and cheap acceleration that only uses one green mana.
What are good maindeck or sideboard cards that will work well in base-blue control decks against cloudpost decks?
Cards I've considered:
Blood Moon
Ensnaring Bridge
Sounds like combo's winning because nobody's playing control. Why not play something that tries to have good combo matchups?
Traditionally, combo would beat aggro. It appears that this is the case here as well. I'm not surprised. Were you playing any combo hate in your lists? White weenie lists have traditionally been very niche decks, often at their best when they have cards that function as hate for the meta (kataki, ethersworn canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Wilt Leaf Liege, Silver Knight) while still beating down.
I'd bet a good blue control deck would have a much better time. That's certainly what my (albeit limited) testing has shown. Currently I'm working on a blue-red control list with maindeck blood moons, to try and combat 12-post. I'm betting that hypergenesis will have a ridiculously hard time winning against it, if it doesn't draw a godhand.
Give me results, not a public opinion poll. I'm willing to bet money that if people sat down and had a few tournaments, within two months, hypergenesis would not be in the top 3 performing decks, less time if the tournament scene really caught on.
After a quick scan over what would be lost if we shifted, I found over 50 playables (not even going that deep into what MIGHT be playable, just what I've seen played/was good in old extended/have played myself to good results)
Blinkmoth Nexus (Tempered steel)
Arcbound Worker (Tempered steel)
Arcbound Ravager (Tempered steel)
Cranial Plating (Tempered steel)
Boseiju, who Shelters All(combo decks)
Chalice of the Void(12post, some control decks, good in sideboards)
City of Brass (not just a hypergenesis card)
Aether Vial (Many decks)
Cloudpost (12post)
Condescend (Tron, 12post, control)
Darksteel Citadel (Tempered steel, decks with trinket mage)
Death Cloud (BG decks with loam and smallpox)
Engineered Explosives
Eternal Witness
Flames of the Blood Hand
Ghostly Prison
Gifts Ungiven
Glimpse of Nature
Isamaru, Hound of Konda (White Weenie)
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (merfolk)
Lava Spike
Magma Jet
Minamo, School at Water's Edge (decks with Vendilion Clique)
Miren, the Moaning Well (Decks with Vedalken Shackles)
Molten Rain
Plow Under
Sakura-Tribe Elder (lark, scapeshift, Ugx control)
Staff of Domination (12post)
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Thirst for Knowledge
Vedalken Shackles
Wrench Mind
Combo playables:
Mesmeric Orb (dredge)
Channel the Suns
Desperate Ritual
Fecundity
Ideas Unbound
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (Extra redundancy in splinter twin decks)
Peer Through Depths
Serum Powder
Through The Breach
Sideboard cards:
Annul
Boil
Choke
Damping Matrix (kills stoneforge+equips, splinter twin, and more)
Defense grid
Ensnaring Bridge
Flashfires
Kataki, War's Wage
Persecute
Pulse of the Fields (teachings)
Threads of Disloyalty
Moving the cutoff would get rid of a lot of interesting room to build, especially in the way of Tempered Steel options, blue control options, anti-blue sideboard cards, red aggro, and the entire 12-post manabase. Note that I'm not even listing cards that are probably good enough but haven't shown up in any lists I've seen.
Prove it. Show me the numbers, some results, anything.
Build up some evidence so we can actually see how the deck does in a few top8s, and then, maybe, it might be time for banning. We'll see.
How about, as a way of figuring out who is right, we have a tournament or two (full bracket, not just single elimination) and see how hypergenesis does?
I play chalice in my Uwr control sideboard. It shuts down 6 cards in my 75, and usually against the decks that I want chalice against, once chalice resolves I don't care. Heck, against hypergenesis I'm boarding out my spell snares anyway. The only deck that I'd like a chalice against but don't bring it in because it stops my spells is Zoo, and that's only because Knight of the Reliquary is too hard to answer without Path.
In my testing v. Hypergenesis, playing blue control, I have lost one match 1-2, won one match 2-0, and won two others 2-1. The die roll is important, but losing the die roll doesn't make the game unwinnable by any means. Chalice, spell burst, rune snag, ensnaring bridge, Vendilion Clique, spell pierce, blood moon, Jace, path, remand... there are so many good cards that do wonders v. Hypergen.
Arguing that the deck is broken because people need to sideboard for it doesn't really say a whole lot. This can be said about a lot of decks. It's not like game 1 is unwinnable, it's just that after sideboarding, hypergenesis is easier to deal with. The same can be said for a lot of decks.
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