I'm not sure if this counts as a sleeper, but Burst Lightning is my pick. Against a LOT of creatures, it does the same job as lightning bolt, and bolt's prevalence may make 3-toughness dudes less popular anyway. Mid/late-game, you may be more than willing to pay an extra 4 mana to get one more damage than bolt. I wouldn't run this instead of bolt, but I would absolutely run 4 of both in any sort of burn deck and I woudln't be surprised to be hoping to topdeck Burst Lightning late game instead of bolt.
I also think Vampire Hexmage will surprise some people with all it can do.
And in the context/meta/environment we're in, Gatekeeper of Malakir is far better than Nekrataal or Shriekmaw could ever be. Black has more than enough super-efficient targeted removal, but Gatekeeper's edict could be very valuable at taking out prot. black creatures.
I've looked at the idea of losing Nocturnus a little bit more and the irony of mentioning Tendrils of Corruption as the motivation behind it is a little funny since for me, that was the first card that left the deck entirely. Without Nocturnus, you can no longer race the Protection that floats around and you will have no choice but to splash a color. Bloodwitch is a fine card, but all it takes is for your opponent to land some Protection and you are already losing tempo.
In my case, I opted to splash Red when I thought about it for Terminate as a more stable piece of removal and Bolts. I'm not sure it'll necessarily work as well without Nocturnus, but it's certainly worth a shot. I just wanted to bring up the irony of the idea of losing Nocturnus for Tendrils since losing Nocturnus will force you to splash a color.
My post was in response to someone who (I thought) had removed Nocturnus, but kept the deck mono-black. I agree that if we remove nocturnus, then that opens the deck to splashing a color and then tendrils should not be played. But I still think splashing red for lightning bolt is stupid. Are we that worried about great sable stag, people?
Which leads me back to...just running nocturnus. It dies to bolt but that means they probably didn't have a bolt for your nighthawk, in which case they are trouble anyway. It allows you to outrace an army of white knights, lightcasters, and great sable stags.
I feel like some of us are playtesting against a deck with 4 white knights, 4 devout lightcasters, 4 great sable stags, 4 lightning bolts, and 4 baneslayer angels. And 4 burrenton forge tenders that have been Mind Bended to "black." Until such a deck exists, I think monoblack vampire aggro is going to be fine.
edit: responding to this:
I disagree, 1 life each turn didn't really bother aggro before when they had pain lands, an even smaller amount of life loss, I think, is worth that much change in what you topdeck. Also there's bloodghast in the deck which I think is pretty important.
The "deck thinning" aspect of running fetches is incredibly negligible. Totally not worth it for that. As for bloodghast - you're saying that I can play the fetch land to resurrect bloodghast, then wait to crack the fetch until the bloodghast dies next? Wouldn't I be served nearly as well by playing a swamp (and getting to use it for mana) and then waiting to play the next swamp I draw to resurrect the ghast?
I can see the fetches as useful for shuffling post-nocturnus, but even then that assumes that I had a fetch in my hand or on the board that I hadn't cracked, just waiting to use it to shuffle to get a better nocturnus. Does that makes any sense?
Gathel - I agree that the +1 ability causes excessive shuffling. Would it just be too lame of an ability if the card went on the bottom of the library?
Moandor - currently he is already 2 turns away from ultimate if you cast the -3 ability twice.
Slaos - I thought of doing shatter for +1, but the problem then is that you can't pump him if there aren't artifacts. Outside of mirrodin block I'd say he probably just gets stuck. I like making his other ultimate a pyro effect, but then I need something for +1 that (a) isn't another redundant direct damage ability, and (b) is something that can be used repeatedly, unlike shatter.
Levissa - well, the point of the first two abilities is that they could combine to exile a permanent. Not sure what to change them for, but I kinda liked them.
If you're using Sorin in the deck, and not running lacerators, I feel like you're playing "vampire MBC" or something and not true vampire aggro. We need those one drops and sorin as a finisher is paying 6 mana for a 2-point drain. I feel like there have to be better ways of beating control or "lifegain combo" (?) in the sideboard.
I'm surprised people are talking about not running nocturnus, I just can't see why you wouldn't run him, still. Is tendrils really a better "4-drop" with all the other removal you have? Hmmm...maybe. Facing off against another black aggro deck (which I expect to be common) will devolve into a nocturnus/bloodwitch fight; whoever lands theirs first and most often will win. Not having nocturnus is a disadvantage but you can also kill their nocturnus instant-speed with your tendrils.
*Against burn, tendrils is better, assuming they still have creatures to cast it on after you've disfigured/doom bladed/gatekeeper'd them all.
Honestly, I haven't been running nocturnus for the last 3 days of testing. Never works out as well as you'd think. I'm running 3x black knight and 3x malakir bloodwitch because white removal is so prevalent, the lifegain is relevant, and first strike is awesome in this format. I'm actually down to two bloodghasts, since they've been underperforming. 1 in the sb to bring in against control. i run 3x disfigure 4x gatekeeper and 4x tendrils for removal. doesn't screw me over against the widely prevalent black aggro creatures like doom blade. tendrils and gatekeeper can keep a lid on baneslayer as well as the pro white vamp. 2 sorin malkov ends games. i run 24 land including 4 fetchlands. testing has been going extremely well, with the only problems coming from jund aggro (blightning, bloodbraid elf, putrid leech, maelstrom pulse, 3/1 trample haste, fast ****).
My two cents.
and on another note, the nighthawk is amazing. huge help against aggro and control both. one of the mvps (and seriously, people should consider testing without the nocturnus, i've tested and the matchup is in the favour of my current decklist).
I think running no doom blade main may end up being an interesting option if black decks become super prevalent. Would you put doom blades in the sb, or are they just unnecessary?
What I don't really understand is not running nocturnus. While I think the deck can certainly win without it, is there ever something you'd rather play with 4 mana? I can't fathom it. The dude can end games after just being dropped into play. Sure he is removal bait but I can't see how that alone is a reason not to play him.
I also don't think you need Sorin, that dude is waaaaay too slow to be an adequate finisher. The bloodwitch is more than enough. I think Sorin is extremely cool but not particularly good. The "10 life" ability better not be relevant by the time you play him; if it is, your deck is doing something horribly wrong.
ElricJC - against control, I think more duress (if 4 aren't in main already) and sadistic sacraments are better choices than hippie. For main deck, both die to lightning bolt but if they don't have a bolt the nighthawk is going to be a huge pain for aggro. Nighthawk is also much better topdecked in mid/late game. I just don't anticipate a lot of slow decks that keep cards in their hand, so this doesn't feel like the right time for specters.
I think black knight is a better choice in the 2-drop slot than hexmage, but hexmage may have a place in the sb against planeswalkers or something.
Guul Draz shouldn't be competing with Nighthawk, but it should be involved in our 1-drop discussion. I like lacerator, I'm partial to duress, but I would want more aggro one-drops (guul draz) tested against ascension.
Fade_to_black - in your curve numbers, are your gatekeepers counted as 3-drops or 2-drops? Mind posting your decklist again? I haven't seen one from ayone in a while.
I wish players would decide on universal language for talking about counterspell variants.
Soft counter = Unless the spell's controller pays X (Mana Leak)
Conditional = Creature/Noncreature/Other type (Negate)
Hard, unconditional = Cancel
This is correct. When this targets a spell, it COUNTERS the spell and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. But it can't target all types of spells, hence it is conditional.
This card: I would have actually like it if it was "Counter target spell. If a creature spell was countered this way..." instead of its current, conditional version. Oh well! It's not horrible at least...but it doesn't save you any mana off of remove soul + grizzly bear. Would have been nicer at 1UU.
This finalizes it - monoblack vampires will be an absolute beast in Zendikar block constructed. Nocturnus will be missed, but this bloodwitch works just dandy as a finisher. I'm sure we can find something to replace sign in blood, too.
As for standard vampires...is she better than consume spirit as a finisher? She seems like one of the hardest to kill creatures in standard, and a perfect foil to baneslayer.
The Sphinx is a better finisher in a true control deck, but you will find it impossible to build such a deck. Control which does not use its main- and combatphase is simply not viable anymore. All succesful control decks in pre-Zendikar standard were in fact controlaggro (or even aggrocontrol) decks which went on offense fast: Faeries, 5cc, UW-Baneslayer or -Reveillark...
You cannot win by denying your opponent everything and late in the game dropping a finisher like the sphinx. Threats have become too fast, powerful and resilient for that, and reactive control too weak.
When you get to 6 mana to play the Sphinx, you will find that (if you're still alive at all) you need to turn around the game with her NOW, and she just cannot do that. She is not even superior to the threats which controlaggro plays (Baneslayer Angel, Cruel Ultimatum, Siege-Gang Commander, Rampaging Baloths, whatever), so when you tap out for her, chances are, your opponent will play something even more impressive. And you WON'T be able to drag out the game long enough that you can drop her with sufficient counterbackup. You probably couldn't even if Counterspell was still available, due to the efficiency of creatures and the resilience of threats - just look at the rare lands from Zendikar! - but you certainly will not be able to do so with the inferior counterspells from today's standard. Control IS dead and has been dead since the time of Dralnu. What people nowadays call "control" is controlaggro at best, and that's a strategy that turns around games fast. Since Mistbind Clique and Reveillark rotate out, that means your best choices to do that are probably Baneslayer Angel and Cruel Ultimatum. Not the Sphinx.
I think you're probably right. The Sphinx is like a super godly power card from an older era that is since past.
Ultimatum is a much better turn-the-game-around card, as you say. Not sold on the Baneslayer for that purpose either (just so vulnerable) but she at least turns the game around if she gets to attack once.
Perhaps the sphinx would work best in a green/blue control-aggro hybrid that could get her out fairly quickly with mana dudes....
I like this! A lot! The Parallax Tide play is rather horrifying but I agree with Whoever, let's blame Tide for that.
Of course anything that can add 2 mana in a tap risks being overpowered or somehow abuseable, but considering the relative "weakness" of enchantments compared to other spell types, this feels like it could actually be reasonable. I like "Enchanted Garden" better as a name but that's just me.
This thread didn't get much attention but I made a big change to the last 'walker (and it's been 2 weeks) so is a bump ok? Here is another walker:
Levissa Syren :4mana::symu::symu:
Planeswalker - Levissa
Loyalty 4
+2: Exile the top three cards of target player's library.
-3: Put target non-Planeswalker permanent second from top on its owner's library.
-8: For the rest of the game, whenever an opponent would draw a card, you may draw a card. Whenever you discard a card, each opponent must discard a card.
^she's a siren planeswalker...she whirlpools dudes away, erases people's brains, and that last ability is some sort of mind stealing/conduit thing. Not sure about her balancing, I didn't put too much thought into the loyalty costs of her abilities.
Am I the only one who thinks the sphinx might be a better finisher than baneslayer for blue/x control (if such a deck even exists)? The worth of baneslayer as a finisher for that kind of deck would seem to be determined by the quality of protection (whether from counterspells or white instants) you can give her. The Sphinx doesn't worry about that stuff as much...or maybe I'm just crazy.
Would that really be overextending? Technically, your opponent's getting a 2-for-1 since you didn't lose card advantage when you cascaded into a 2 toughness creature. If you think its overextending, then that's more BBE's fault than the cobra's.
If might be only a 2-for-1, but you are probably going to lose under the situation I described. I guess that's a risk whenever a ramp strategy is used to pump out lots of threats. You're right that BBE overextension (or whatever you want to call it) is the reason for this. But nearly every cobra trick discussed seems to devolve to "it helps get BBE out a turn sooner." Incidentally, BBE is one of the only ways to really recover from the hurt caused by a wrath/fallout on your weenie board. I guess what I'm saying is that BBE is really, really good. But we already knew that.
Guys, let's take a step back here: are you really going to use your lotus cobra to power out a baneslayer angel? That just seems....goofy. I think lotus cobra's best use is in an aggro/BBE deck that essentially uses it as a 2/1 birds that doesn't actually tap to give you its mana. That is, a 2/1 birds that is going to die faster because it is crashing into the attack but also one that is going to do more damage and occasionally power out a ridiculous play thanks to a fetch.
But cobra/fetch/harrow/baneslayer.dec is just dumb.
Monowhite Soldier should be seing alot of play, so yes i think monowithe will live one after kithkin. As for duress i think it should stay a sideboard card. Is there really something maindeck you want to hit that bad to take 4 slots of this deck? I dont think so. It will only slow you down.
I think duress is a fine turn one play when you don't have a lacerator. The deck should have some one-drop other than the lacerator, whether it be the ascension or duress or something else.
Monowhite soldier seems outclassed by black, red, and/or green aggro to me right now. Regardless, even running the full black-hate suite I think this deck can get around it, for the reasons I discussed above.
I've done alot of testing with and against Baneslayer Angel. In my opinion, this card is way overhyped. I think one time some cast the angel turn four with a mana dork. This ended with me pathing the Baneslayer. I ended up winning that game with my squirrel deck. I just don't see Baneslayer as a must have. I think this card will settle at 3 dollars maybe 5 at the most.
This is why we can't argue about removal.
But we CAN talk about what happens when your cobra shenanigans overextend you into a fallout or DoJ. Cobra -> bloodbraid -> cascade into another hasty attacker just loses when your opponent casts fallout.
The cobra is very strong. But I don't think he was talking about a "it dies to removal" argument, he was talking about "it encourages you to overextend into a trap" argument.
I also think Vampire Hexmage will surprise some people with all it can do.
And in the context/meta/environment we're in, Gatekeeper of Malakir is far better than Nekrataal or Shriekmaw could ever be. Black has more than enough super-efficient targeted removal, but Gatekeeper's edict could be very valuable at taking out prot. black creatures.
My post was in response to someone who (I thought) had removed Nocturnus, but kept the deck mono-black. I agree that if we remove nocturnus, then that opens the deck to splashing a color and then tendrils should not be played. But I still think splashing red for lightning bolt is stupid. Are we that worried about great sable stag, people?
Which leads me back to...just running nocturnus. It dies to bolt but that means they probably didn't have a bolt for your nighthawk, in which case they are trouble anyway. It allows you to outrace an army of white knights, lightcasters, and great sable stags.
I feel like some of us are playtesting against a deck with 4 white knights, 4 devout lightcasters, 4 great sable stags, 4 lightning bolts, and 4 baneslayer angels. And 4 burrenton forge tenders that have been Mind Bended to "black." Until such a deck exists, I think monoblack vampire aggro is going to be fine.
edit: responding to this:
The "deck thinning" aspect of running fetches is incredibly negligible. Totally not worth it for that. As for bloodghast - you're saying that I can play the fetch land to resurrect bloodghast, then wait to crack the fetch until the bloodghast dies next? Wouldn't I be served nearly as well by playing a swamp (and getting to use it for mana) and then waiting to play the next swamp I draw to resurrect the ghast?
I can see the fetches as useful for shuffling post-nocturnus, but even then that assumes that I had a fetch in my hand or on the board that I hadn't cracked, just waiting to use it to shuffle to get a better nocturnus. Does that makes any sense?
Gathel - I agree that the +1 ability causes excessive shuffling. Would it just be too lame of an ability if the card went on the bottom of the library?
Moandor - currently he is already 2 turns away from ultimate if you cast the -3 ability twice.
Slaos - I thought of doing shatter for +1, but the problem then is that you can't pump him if there aren't artifacts. Outside of mirrodin block I'd say he probably just gets stuck. I like making his other ultimate a pyro effect, but then I need something for +1 that (a) isn't another redundant direct damage ability, and (b) is something that can be used repeatedly, unlike shatter.
Levissa - well, the point of the first two abilities is that they could combine to exile a permanent. Not sure what to change them for, but I kinda liked them.
I'm surprised people are talking about not running nocturnus, I just can't see why you wouldn't run him, still. Is tendrils really a better "4-drop" with all the other removal you have? Hmmm...maybe. Facing off against another black aggro deck (which I expect to be common) will devolve into a nocturnus/bloodwitch fight; whoever lands theirs first and most often will win. Not having nocturnus is a disadvantage but you can also kill their nocturnus instant-speed with your tendrils.
*Against burn, tendrils is better, assuming they still have creatures to cast it on after you've disfigured/doom bladed/gatekeeper'd them all.
I think running no doom blade main may end up being an interesting option if black decks become super prevalent. Would you put doom blades in the sb, or are they just unnecessary?
What I don't really understand is not running nocturnus. While I think the deck can certainly win without it, is there ever something you'd rather play with 4 mana? I can't fathom it. The dude can end games after just being dropped into play. Sure he is removal bait but I can't see how that alone is a reason not to play him.
I also don't think you need Sorin, that dude is waaaaay too slow to be an adequate finisher. The bloodwitch is more than enough. I think Sorin is extremely cool but not particularly good. The "10 life" ability better not be relevant by the time you play him; if it is, your deck is doing something horribly wrong.
ElricJC - against control, I think more duress (if 4 aren't in main already) and sadistic sacraments are better choices than hippie. For main deck, both die to lightning bolt but if they don't have a bolt the nighthawk is going to be a huge pain for aggro. Nighthawk is also much better topdecked in mid/late game. I just don't anticipate a lot of slow decks that keep cards in their hand, so this doesn't feel like the right time for specters.
I think black knight is a better choice in the 2-drop slot than hexmage, but hexmage may have a place in the sb against planeswalkers or something.
Fade_to_black - in your curve numbers, are your gatekeepers counted as 3-drops or 2-drops? Mind posting your decklist again? I haven't seen one from ayone in a while.
This is correct. When this targets a spell, it COUNTERS the spell and there is nothing your opponent can do about it. But it can't target all types of spells, hence it is conditional.
This card: I would have actually like it if it was "Counter target spell. If a creature spell was countered this way..." instead of its current, conditional version. Oh well! It's not horrible at least...but it doesn't save you any mana off of remove soul + grizzly bear. Would have been nicer at 1UU.
As for standard vampires...is she better than consume spirit as a finisher? She seems like one of the hardest to kill creatures in standard, and a perfect foil to baneslayer.
I think you're probably right. The Sphinx is like a super godly power card from an older era that is since past.
Ultimatum is a much better turn-the-game-around card, as you say. Not sold on the Baneslayer for that purpose either (just so vulnerable) but she at least turns the game around if she gets to attack once.
Perhaps the sphinx would work best in a green/blue control-aggro hybrid that could get her out fairly quickly with mana dudes....
Of course anything that can add 2 mana in a tap risks being overpowered or somehow abuseable, but considering the relative "weakness" of enchantments compared to other spell types, this feels like it could actually be reasonable. I like "Enchanted Garden" better as a name but that's just me.
Levissa Syren :4mana::symu::symu:
Planeswalker - Levissa
Loyalty 4
+2: Exile the top three cards of target player's library.
-3: Put target non-Planeswalker permanent second from top on its owner's library.
-8: For the rest of the game, whenever an opponent would draw a card, you may draw a card. Whenever you discard a card, each opponent must discard a card.
^she's a siren planeswalker...she whirlpools dudes away, erases people's brains, and that last ability is some sort of mind stealing/conduit thing. Not sure about her balancing, I didn't put too much thought into the loyalty costs of her abilities.
If might be only a 2-for-1, but you are probably going to lose under the situation I described. I guess that's a risk whenever a ramp strategy is used to pump out lots of threats. You're right that BBE overextension (or whatever you want to call it) is the reason for this. But nearly every cobra trick discussed seems to devolve to "it helps get BBE out a turn sooner." Incidentally, BBE is one of the only ways to really recover from the hurt caused by a wrath/fallout on your weenie board. I guess what I'm saying is that BBE is really, really good. But we already knew that.
Guys, let's take a step back here: are you really going to use your lotus cobra to power out a baneslayer angel? That just seems....goofy. I think lotus cobra's best use is in an aggro/BBE deck that essentially uses it as a 2/1 birds that doesn't actually tap to give you its mana. That is, a 2/1 birds that is going to die faster because it is crashing into the attack but also one that is going to do more damage and occasionally power out a ridiculous play thanks to a fetch.
But cobra/fetch/harrow/baneslayer.dec is just dumb.
I think duress is a fine turn one play when you don't have a lacerator. The deck should have some one-drop other than the lacerator, whether it be the ascension or duress or something else.
Monowhite soldier seems outclassed by black, red, and/or green aggro to me right now. Regardless, even running the full black-hate suite I think this deck can get around it, for the reasons I discussed above.
But we CAN talk about what happens when your cobra shenanigans overextend you into a fallout or DoJ. Cobra -> bloodbraid -> cascade into another hasty attacker just loses when your opponent casts fallout.
The cobra is very strong. But I don't think he was talking about a "it dies to removal" argument, he was talking about "it encourages you to overextend into a trap" argument.