Lol those arent quite the same but yeah, the card is too unrealistic. Togglodyte may be believable enough, though.
By the way, master thief has been really annoying so far, and the spirit is promising. Fireslinger dealt 5 damage and 7 damage in its maiden match. Vampire outcasts was easy to turn on, but was shut down by mistmeadow skulk. Just keeping you updated.
Ok. next discussion.
What is the opinion on spirit mantle?
My friends are probably going to ignore the bird's stipulation, which seems like a cop out. Booster tutor is never going to leave my cube, I think, and frazzled editor is extremely powerful, if almost too offbeat.
I really like this little foursome we have going on here. No homo.
Hm.
By the way, I tried fume spitter before I got my Blind Creeper and Fledgling Djinn (aka before aggro was better) and he wasn't great. Now that my black looks like a bigger version of my red, perhaps Fume spitter will act more like mogg fanatic.
That was, truthfully, a very productive conversation we all had there. Ok, well, I suppose I can switch to a non-new topic again.
What are your thoughts on un cards? I've been running them and have had a great experience. I think I have frazzled editor, carnivorous death parrot, and booster tutor. Booster tutor is perhaps the most fun, and most powerful, card in black.
If he was a 2/1 then he'd be the best black creature in the cube by far. Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but a 2 power evasive creature for 1 mana is virtually unheard of in any color. Let's be real.
I'm not expecting him to deal 20. I'm not expecting vampire lacerator to deal 20 either. I want my one drop to deal some damage, and this guy guarantees it. I am reminded of the experiment that was done back in kamigawa block when it was shown that suntail hawk averages more damage than isamaru, hound of konda. The environment was different, to be fair, but the argument is similar.
The differences in the two creatures are worth noting; Tormented soul won't be stopped by a flier, and vampire lacerator ends up clocking you for 3-5 damage.
I'm certainly not saying to get rid of our 1 mana 2/2's, I'm just making a case for the validity of a 1 power, 1 mana unblockable
Having 1 toughness as opposed to two let's him die to... cunning sparkmage... cycled slice and dice... and... Not a whole lot else (Maybe the worlds worst judge unworthy). He's not really more afraid of burn than your average creature.
Furthermore, it is not often that an elephant/griffin guide gets 2 for 1'd. Players tap out, especially around the early turns.
Also
My argument for saying the creature is good with enchantments requires me to have one of the very few auras in my cube. Thus, it isn't very strong, and I was only using it as a small point. A counterargument that requires the opponent to have mana up and a kill spell at the ready for my corner case to be invalidated is then, by its very nature, another weak point. The more rungs down the ladder we go, the worse the points become. Imagine how silly I'd sound if I went and said that "i would cast apostles blessing in response".
Also, I could have just replaced elephant guide with incremental growth if I was expecting an appeal to the power of burn spells. I merely pulled the first permanent, power enhancing green spell out of thin air.
In any case, I'll take it upon myself to test him, like I'm testing master thief. I'll have my reports soon.
Right now, I have the outcasts in. Pingers wake them up, and black has a good amount of beaters to smack the opponent up a bit to make them good. I'd go and say black has an easier time triggering combat based bloodthirst than red any day. Between evasion and strong-with-a-drawback creatures, an aggressor should easily get this guy down.
Also, a 4 toughness black creature is no joke. 4 power on a lifelinker is absolutely impossible to keep up with as well. Just to put things in perspective, the only creatures that can outrace it one on one in my cube are pelakka wurm (ONLY because it gains 7), mistmeadow witch (she cheats), Benthicore/jade mage (the blockers),and artisan of kozilek. That's just... delicious.
anyways
Tormented soul
thanks for correcting me
You say conditional, I say turn 1. If it isn't answered, it will very likely decide a game. Not all creatures can say that they actually need kill spells pointed at them. Five damage? Eight damage? They have to kill it. Equipment? Elephant guide? Nothing wrong with that if you ask me. I'll be back with my reports on him when I get more testing in.
I have no input on force. Calibretto should be more useful.
Also, first day with Master thief was promising. I'll keep testing.
Oh, treason, red's creatures are terrible by comparison. this is fact. Red will never win against green or white head to head, and black's creatures often have some "grinding" advantages to them.
I think you guys may be right about goblin fireslinger. I may have just been too hyped by the prerelease. What do you think of tortured spirit then? I've always liked Inkfathom infiltrator, and this is a somewhat worse version.
As for counterspells, I guess the early game window for negate doesn't offset the all encompassing hinder. I've been upset with negate for some time, anyway.
Hinder slaps cenn's enlistment in the face... so I can't complain I guess.
Exclude always feels like a blowout, similar to soul manipulation, and I think its place is close to permanent.
Hinder was so often just cancel, I dropped it for some more interaction. I've been pushing for more of an archetype driven cube, so I have a lot of odd choices (like Signal pest or the Honden of Burning Rage cycle.) With that in mind, I need to make space for cards like Vedalken mastermind. That's why i was looking for space to make. In the end, I also took out Foresee.
Ok. so counterspells are probably covered.
Master theif is going to have a moment in my cube, but I can't say I don't think it'll come out. I'll let you know. Good argument, tReason. I don't care about who's right, I just want the best logic to win out.
As usual, anyone can revisit a topic if they have anything interesting to say.
In the meantime.
Stormblood berserkers and Goblin Fireslinger. I cut out a big hunk of my high end (hearthcage giant and flame wave) so I will soon be seeing them in. Both were absolute nuts yesterday, and obviously love each other. Thoughts?
I run
Daze (which pops in and out at times)
Force Spike
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Memory lapse
Condescend
Negate
Remand
Essence scatter
Exclude
Forbid
I don't own Force of will and I don't like Arcane Denial.
Memory lapse is one of the best in my cube because, as I've mentioned many times, I have aggressive blue cards. Memory lapse makes catching up pretty impossible sometimes.
Calibretto, I understand your point. I run manic vandal, but only because I still don't have a keldon vandals. I upped my artifact count to make sure the hate was useful, but cut Skullclamp and hammer because they were, quite honestly, winning every game. Now I don't need to flood my cube with cards like that.
Ok, to show that I'm actually open to relevant, useful, not m12 discussion, what ratio of blue cards to counterspells do you recommend. Right now I'm running 12/62 but I'm thinking of cutting one (negate or convolute) for a creature.
Using my into the roil or riftwing cloudskate on a functional artifact doesn't solve many problems. I don't know how you can praise Manic vandal and then dismiss Master thief in the same breath. I know that one of them is temporary, but that wasn't the point that you had made. It was like you judged one on using it for yourself and the other on getting rid of the enemy resource when in reality, they both have similar functionality. Master thief does his job in a different but worse way, but he's a blue guy that deals with artifacts, and that is completely new.
Shrines don't have 3 mana up for safe keeping until well after you can drop the thief. If they do, then they aren't playing cards. Even if they have the mana, it isn't any different than playing an artifact removal spell since theyll blow it early (and you have a 2/2). The card needs to be seen as a marginal artifact removal spell in a color that traditionally can't deal with artifacts First, and as a card that steals you a useful permanent Second. That is its value, as I see it. I'll be testing soon enough.
why wouldn't the morningstar be a good steal? I'm not arguing your point, I just want you to back it up with a reason.
tReason, saying that there are not a lot of things to be said about commons and uncommons is pretty... I don't know what word to use... offensive? I don't mean any malice behind that but like I just demonstrated there Is a lot that can be said if you dig into the topic beyond what a regular Joe would see. I made the thread with the Sole intention of having that in mind. I'm the kind of person who does that, and expects to be met with a similar brand of reasoning skill by whomever I'm talking to. I want intelligent debates that are more than just "I don't think it's good enough". Like before, when we brought up Crimson Mage, it was said that most red creatures have haste so crimson mage wouldn't make the cut, but it was completely overlooked that not only do less than half of red creatures in the cube have haste, but that other colors would want the support as well.
Numbers. Comparisons. Real experience with the cards beyond a playtest or two. That is what I was looking for when I made this thread. I am not going to throw a tantrum every time somebody mentions how Reap and Sow is secretly a blowout against Blue/black or something, of course not. I'm not some ridiculous forum Nazi. I just care about the standards I am trying to set. Namely (and I'm sorry for repeating myself again) that this is a thread about having In Depth analysis concerning pauper cards. Since we have a lot if new cards to cover, I would prefer that the conversation temporarily stays centered around new cards. However, if an interesting argument can be found elsewhere in magic (like say... cutting loxadon warhammer because it wins 95% of games where it gets to live) then I'm ok with that. I'm merely trying to prevent this thread from becoming the usual "i think this card is good" "nice find!" small talk that dominates the general cube boards.
So long as we can keep the spirit of the in depth card discussions, I suppose we can. I really want to get through these cards, though.
As for the thief, I found a good number of targets. Behemoths sledge, grafted wargear, porcelain legionnaire, lightning greaves or swiftfoot boots (sick life), crystal ball, palladium myr, thundering tanadon, icy manipulator, isochron scepter, bonesplitter, vulshock morningstar, darksteel sentinel, the red and white shrines, and crystal shard.
Yeah. I'm testing it. If it is too dead then I'll drop it.
I actually don't want this thread to be the home base for all peasant discussion, to be honest. I wanted to evaluate new cards, in depth, here. At least not for now, when we have a dozen new cards to look over. I really like the focused "1 or 2 card at a time" format.
Frost breath - looks better and better for me. U/G is common in my cube. I'm sure my blastoderm will love me for it.
Phantasmal dragon - Definite no. green has 11 ways to kill it in my cube right now. Green. I know It's a dead conversation but that fact just hit me.
I haven't had sleep in here in forever. I should give it another shot, now that my U/x strategies attack more. In the past, it mostly was like a holy day, used only when backpedaling.
So, here is an interesting one. Master thief? It deals with the card that has won more games in my cube than any other: Loxadon warhammer.
I think the comparison to jushi apprentice is valid. Having 4 mana for a card just doesn't happen very often. The effect is tempting but I suddenly agree.
I wasn't running frantic search in mine to begin with, but I could choose between nevermaker and Quicksilver geyser. Probably nevermaker.
I'll try the dragon... maybe not. it'll be dead too often, sadly
By the way, master thief has been really annoying so far, and the spirit is promising. Fireslinger dealt 5 damage and 7 damage in its maiden match. Vampire outcasts was easy to turn on, but was shut down by mistmeadow skulk. Just keeping you updated.
Ok. next discussion.
What is the opinion on spirit mantle?
Hm.
By the way, I tried fume spitter before I got my Blind Creeper and Fledgling Djinn (aka before aggro was better) and he wasn't great. Now that my black looks like a bigger version of my red, perhaps Fume spitter will act more like mogg fanatic.
That was, truthfully, a very productive conversation we all had there. Ok, well, I suppose I can switch to a non-new topic again.
What are your thoughts on un cards? I've been running them and have had a great experience. I think I have frazzled editor, carnivorous death parrot, and booster tutor. Booster tutor is perhaps the most fun, and most powerful, card in black.
Cheatyface is a little too unrealistic for me.
I'm not expecting him to deal 20. I'm not expecting vampire lacerator to deal 20 either. I want my one drop to deal some damage, and this guy guarantees it. I am reminded of the experiment that was done back in kamigawa block when it was shown that suntail hawk averages more damage than isamaru, hound of konda. The environment was different, to be fair, but the argument is similar.
The differences in the two creatures are worth noting; Tormented soul won't be stopped by a flier, and vampire lacerator ends up clocking you for 3-5 damage.
I'm certainly not saying to get rid of our 1 mana 2/2's, I'm just making a case for the validity of a 1 power, 1 mana unblockable
Having 1 toughness as opposed to two let's him die to... cunning sparkmage... cycled slice and dice... and... Not a whole lot else (Maybe the worlds worst judge unworthy). He's not really more afraid of burn than your average creature.
Furthermore, it is not often that an elephant/griffin guide gets 2 for 1'd. Players tap out, especially around the early turns.
Also
My argument for saying the creature is good with enchantments requires me to have one of the very few auras in my cube. Thus, it isn't very strong, and I was only using it as a small point. A counterargument that requires the opponent to have mana up and a kill spell at the ready for my corner case to be invalidated is then, by its very nature, another weak point. The more rungs down the ladder we go, the worse the points become. Imagine how silly I'd sound if I went and said that "i would cast apostles blessing in response".
Also, I could have just replaced elephant guide with incremental growth if I was expecting an appeal to the power of burn spells. I merely pulled the first permanent, power enhancing green spell out of thin air.
In any case, I'll take it upon myself to test him, like I'm testing master thief. I'll have my reports soon.
Also, a 4 toughness black creature is no joke. 4 power on a lifelinker is absolutely impossible to keep up with as well. Just to put things in perspective, the only creatures that can outrace it one on one in my cube are pelakka wurm (ONLY because it gains 7), mistmeadow witch (she cheats), Benthicore/jade mage (the blockers),and artisan of kozilek. That's just... delicious.
anyways
Tormented soul
thanks for correcting me
You say conditional, I say turn 1. If it isn't answered, it will very likely decide a game. Not all creatures can say that they actually need kill spells pointed at them. Five damage? Eight damage? They have to kill it. Equipment? Elephant guide? Nothing wrong with that if you ask me. I'll be back with my reports on him when I get more testing in.
I have no input on force. Calibretto should be more useful.
Also, first day with Master thief was promising. I'll keep testing.
Well then don't play blue and be happy that your other colors are stacked. People will complain about anything...
Oh, treason, red's creatures are terrible by comparison. this is fact. Red will never win against green or white head to head, and black's creatures often have some "grinding" advantages to them.
I think you guys may be right about goblin fireslinger. I may have just been too hyped by the prerelease. What do you think of tortured spirit then? I've always liked Inkfathom infiltrator, and this is a somewhat worse version.
As for counterspells, I guess the early game window for negate doesn't offset the all encompassing hinder. I've been upset with negate for some time, anyway.
Hinder slaps cenn's enlistment in the face... so I can't complain I guess.
Exclude always feels like a blowout, similar to soul manipulation, and I think its place is close to permanent.
Ok. so counterspells are probably covered.
Master theif is going to have a moment in my cube, but I can't say I don't think it'll come out. I'll let you know. Good argument, tReason. I don't care about who's right, I just want the best logic to win out.
As usual, anyone can revisit a topic if they have anything interesting to say.
In the meantime.
Stormblood berserkers and Goblin Fireslinger. I cut out a big hunk of my high end (hearthcage giant and flame wave) so I will soon be seeing them in. Both were absolute nuts yesterday, and obviously love each other. Thoughts?
Daze (which pops in and out at times)
Force Spike
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Memory lapse
Condescend
Negate
Remand
Essence scatter
Exclude
Forbid
I don't own Force of will and I don't like Arcane Denial.
Memory lapse is one of the best in my cube because, as I've mentioned many times, I have aggressive blue cards. Memory lapse makes catching up pretty impossible sometimes.
Ok, to show that I'm actually open to relevant, useful, not m12 discussion, what ratio of blue cards to counterspells do you recommend. Right now I'm running 12/62 but I'm thinking of cutting one (negate or convolute) for a creature.
Shrines don't have 3 mana up for safe keeping until well after you can drop the thief. If they do, then they aren't playing cards. Even if they have the mana, it isn't any different than playing an artifact removal spell since theyll blow it early (and you have a 2/2). The card needs to be seen as a marginal artifact removal spell in a color that traditionally can't deal with artifacts First, and as a card that steals you a useful permanent Second. That is its value, as I see it. I'll be testing soon enough.
why wouldn't the morningstar be a good steal? I'm not arguing your point, I just want you to back it up with a reason.
tReason, saying that there are not a lot of things to be said about commons and uncommons is pretty... I don't know what word to use... offensive? I don't mean any malice behind that but like I just demonstrated there Is a lot that can be said if you dig into the topic beyond what a regular Joe would see. I made the thread with the Sole intention of having that in mind. I'm the kind of person who does that, and expects to be met with a similar brand of reasoning skill by whomever I'm talking to. I want intelligent debates that are more than just "I don't think it's good enough". Like before, when we brought up Crimson Mage, it was said that most red creatures have haste so crimson mage wouldn't make the cut, but it was completely overlooked that not only do less than half of red creatures in the cube have haste, but that other colors would want the support as well.
Numbers. Comparisons. Real experience with the cards beyond a playtest or two. That is what I was looking for when I made this thread. I am not going to throw a tantrum every time somebody mentions how Reap and Sow is secretly a blowout against Blue/black or something, of course not. I'm not some ridiculous forum Nazi. I just care about the standards I am trying to set. Namely (and I'm sorry for repeating myself again) that this is a thread about having In Depth analysis concerning pauper cards. Since we have a lot if new cards to cover, I would prefer that the conversation temporarily stays centered around new cards. However, if an interesting argument can be found elsewhere in magic (like say... cutting loxadon warhammer because it wins 95% of games where it gets to live) then I'm ok with that. I'm merely trying to prevent this thread from becoming the usual "i think this card is good" "nice find!" small talk that dominates the general cube boards.
Thanks for reading.
As for the thief, I found a good number of targets. Behemoths sledge, grafted wargear, porcelain legionnaire, lightning greaves or swiftfoot boots (sick life), crystal ball, palladium myr, thundering tanadon, icy manipulator, isochron scepter, bonesplitter, vulshock morningstar, darksteel sentinel, the red and white shrines, and crystal shard.
Yeah. I'm testing it. If it is too dead then I'll drop it.
Frost breath - looks better and better for me. U/G is common in my cube. I'm sure my blastoderm will love me for it.
Phantasmal dragon - Definite no. green has 11 ways to kill it in my cube right now. Green. I know It's a dead conversation but that fact just hit me.
I haven't had sleep in here in forever. I should give it another shot, now that my U/x strategies attack more. In the past, it mostly was like a holy day, used only when backpedaling.
So, here is an interesting one. Master thief? It deals with the card that has won more games in my cube than any other: Loxadon warhammer.
I wasn't running frantic search in mine to begin with, but I could choose between nevermaker and Quicksilver geyser. Probably nevermaker.
I'll try the dragon... maybe not. it'll be dead too often, sadly