silver, why do you think it's possible Asta's a wolf and made up receiving a message when he didn't actually get anything? To me, that just seems like a needless fake claim to cut down on doubt on dkings when he'd have had something fine going.
Do you think me and Rhand are w/w? KCC and Rhand? Like, from an interactions perspective.
Also, just out of curiosity, which games of mine did you read?
Wouldn't say he's "so" town, he's my lowest townread and solidly null by behavior
It really just comes down to his role, we aren't enough investigative power and his role isn't strong enough to be a wolf investigative; it doesn't seem "correct" that they only get actionable info during Summer (particularly since dkingsland isn't watchable since he activates outside of night actions) and if I'm the strongest investigative we have, lol we're pretty screwed on that front
If we get to the massclaim and like, Killjoy claims investigative or something I'll reconsider but as of right now...
Ok. What if I said you're underestimating the strength of my role, for reasons I don't want to talk about rn.
I agree with silver here - in terms of investigation, I think there's definitely something more than your claim and Silver's apparently weak role, although that may be explained by this hidden stuff. (Gemma may have had a weaker info role, as well.) I also thought Axel's claim was towny for that reason, but I'm not like, wowed by his posting.
Maybe this was already discussed and I forgot about it, but what utility do you think Axel's role would have as mafia? Also, what are your thoughts on me toDay?
@Axel, just something I've been wondering and probably irrelevant, you said you were "Moth, Fairy Town Watcher." Do you know what the "fairy" means?
I do not know what it means. I assumed it was a character of some type. Given "Oberon" and "Titania", I just assume that a lot, if not all of us, are "Fairys." I would be slightly interested if Oberon and Titania were not also listed as "Fairy" in their role PMs. But then I'm slightly paranoid that Fairly could be a "type" that matters in some way, maybe for someone's abilities, and anyone else claiming to be one could be negatively impacted in some way?
Well, my flavor name is a fairy and I'm not a Fairy, and Asta or dkings didn't say they were Fairies either. I don't think there's any conclusion that can be drawn from this, though. Maybe it's just there to clarify that Moth is Moth, the fairy, and not moth, the insect.
I would appreciate your thoughts on Rhand, yeah. Also maybe on Proph, outside of his role, if you could.
I hope your insomnia improves soon, by the way - that sounds rough.
And I mean, maybe the answer is just "he's a dreaming god and they do weird stuff lol," because if Wisp actually knows what his abilities do, I think he is doing a pretty good job of pretending to not have any clue.
The sequence of KCC scumreading Wisp is very... fluid. It feels organic. It feels like she believes in it. And if you're mafia KCC in this situation, why would you push on town Last, who's not dying today, and who's the top poster? So KCC feels natural, agendaless, as well. And her tone feels genuine.
There's a note of discord here, because I feel like there's this sort of gap she's not filling, in how some of her reads interact with each other, or between different observations. She says Proph should mechanically be mafia, but everything still makes sense if he's town, and she doesn't get why he'd target Axel - which are fine observations by themselves, and there's nothing wrong with hedging, but she never joins the observations or comes down on one side, if that makes sense. I don't know how she feels on Proph in the end. She had thoughts about Nacho yesterday and Last today, and thoughts about her wagon, but didn't really put them together.
I'd also forgotten how clean her day 1 wagon was. Not like clean wagons haven't lunched villagers before, I guess.
I'll probably need to go back at some point and reread her day 1 stuff with the counterclaim, and maybe look into that Watchmen game. I at least think she isn't wolves with Proph, and maybe Proph's more likely to be mafia.
If all of the abilities are dramatically game altering, I think Tranquility is probably just that, a Day of peace, with no effect. That makes the most sense to me. Which, if he's scum, would have to mean either
1) He is actually completely in the dark about what the abilities do, but that seems kinda weird on scum or
2) He does know more or all of the effect, but needs to pick one every Night, and just wanted to get that blank one out of the way first. But I don't think that really makes sense as scum play either or
3) He actually didn't get a N0 ability and false claimed it knowing his future abilities would alter the Title, or similarly, a Tranquility ability was actually chosen automatically N0, because breaking D1 is probably bad game design?
The more I'm thinking about it... We could have had D1 96 hour kingmaker? Or D1 unanimous lynch? And we just all got lucky he picked an ability that didn't do anything, at least not anything noticable?
This bugs me, and I can't think of a good resolution to it.
If Wisp knows more about what his abilities do, he'd probably know that they were anti-town in some capacity, so I don't get why he would claim when he did, with no provocation or questioning. I also think that if he were mafia and knew more about his abilities, he would probably not have chosen Tranquility on night 0. Plus, from a variety of posts he's made since claiming, I just don't think that he knows what his abilities do.
But if he didn't know what his abilities did... then I guess we could have had a kingmaker, or increased majority, or something on day 1? That seems really weird. Maybe whatever he chose first silently had no effect, or something, but then why not just have his role be n1+? I don't have an answer. Maybe we did all just get lucky.
And completely separately from mechanics, I think Wisp has been towny. It's for kind of squishy reasons, which feels bad, but I've correctly townread him in the past for squishy reasons. His realizations and emotional reactions to things, like the 10 to lynch thing, feel congruent with town him. I feel like some of his pushes haven't gone anywhere, but he feels kind of agendaless in that as well, and I don't doubt his conviction. His read on me was, hm, iirc he townread me when he didn't have to, which did not feel opportunistic in a way I might expect of him as mafia. You could label that as TMI but it didn't... really feel like that, or feel like he's TMIing KCC.
I don't think Wisp saying that he talked about KCC a lot is a lie. He did mention his feelings on her throughout the game, and I think he was referring to that rather than the specific scumread or not-townread on her.
I feel like a part of your scumread on him, KCC, is that you feel that town would not get frustrated or irritated by your questioning, right? But I think it's natural for some people to become frustrated when people push them or ask for reasoning, no matter their alignment. I think Wisp saw "I have no reason to townread you," which he mentioned multiple times, as a fine answer to your question about why he thought you were a good shot, so your continued probing into it was irritating. And now, re: the TMI thing, it's like you're putting something forward and saying "this is wolfy," and reading him as asking "but why are you doing this, I don't understand why you are making this argument?" aka not understanding the possibility that you could be mafia, but I am reading his responses as saying "but why is that wolfy at all, I don't understand the argument itself?" If that makes sense.
I don't know if this is actually what is going on, but it makes sense to me as an interpretation of the situation in the context of me thinking Wisp is town, so uh. Yeah.
KCC, could you refresh me on why you think Rhand is town?
Hm, fulcrum, I don't get your take on Rhand. Could you expand on it for me? If you think Vaimes is town, and not just not-mafia, what do you think of Rhand's insistence that his ability is too similar to Vaimes'?
I'm sorry, I'm phone posting so I can't check myself, but are there are any orbs currently out tgat could be used to check Proph's claim Tonight?
No, the only orb that's out is the blue orb shadow gave to Vezok. If Proph gives someone a blue orb and that person targets Vezok, that would protect Vezok from a kill. But even if Proph's telling the truth, if that plan is public, the mafia will probably just kill someone besides Vezok, and we get nothing.
It's possible to have silver check it toNight because his roles are probably investigative?
I feel like everyone who should be pushing scum rn is just lamenting about a lack of strong reads instead, and there has to be scum satisfied with the gamestate in there, using the thread feeling as an excuse to do nothing.
I agree with this in theory, but who do you think this applies to here? I don't think Axel has really done much that isn't related to his action last night, but he seems busy in general. I feel like a lot of the people who have been semi-absent today have something mechanical going for them (masons, dk/Asta, etc.)
Anyway I don't think it's testable unless the orbs are given before other actions, in which case he could give an orb toDay and then give a yellow one after the lunch flips us into Fall?
Oh, did not think about action order. The orb giving makes most sense as Miscellaneous to me, so he'd have to give a yellow orb to someone Today who has an Inspect-type action, then give an orange orb Tonight to that person's target, in order for this testing situation to work.
I guess the role name giving could be a roundabout type of info-gathering that also benefits scum, which is a bit inconvenient. But all of the ability names seem to be pretty vague on what they actually do, so I feel like its main use is probably pro-town-ish as fulcrum said.
Holy crap I just realized tom might've died from his lightning rod ability, it was Spring last night wasn't it?
And it was Day activated, maybe he crumbed his target?
As I understand it, I don't think he could have activated it. It's a spring day ability, and it was only spring during the day on day 1 before Nacho changed the season, and now. It's possible that tom targeted before the season changed on day 1, but that doesn't tell us anything as useful because no one died night 1.
silver, I don't think I worded my question to you about fulcrum very well. Could you point to some posts from her that make you think so?
I feel like Proph's orb ***** is super testble. Can't he give one of the orbs that causes to targetter reveal their ability name when they hit another orb to someone Today, and then have that person target Vezok to confirm both their's and proph's ability.
Yeah, I agree it's pretty testable. I think Vezok has the wrong color of orb for that, though - maybe Asta would be a better target since he's supposedly unable to die. Do you think if Proph's telling the truth about what the orbs do, he's town?
Not Voting(4) - dkingsland967, Grapefruit21, Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Rhand, I know we can't force you to if you don't want to or anything, and this is kind of selfish because I'm curious what you can do and why you're so convinced Vaimes can't be town with you, but I think you should claim so that we have all the information in the Vaimes/you situation.
fulcrum - do you think the behavior and claim-related reasons you cited about Vaimes being town are more like "town Vaimes" or "not mafia-with-a-team (i.e. town, or possibly neutral) Vaimes"? I know there's no real reason to speculate on the existence of a third party, but your posts about it laid out the distinction as more of a dichotomy. Same question to Proph, I guess.
Do you think me and Rhand are w/w? KCC and Rhand? Like, from an interactions perspective.
Also, just out of curiosity, which games of mine did you read?
Maybe this was already discussed and I forgot about it, but what utility do you think Axel's role would have as mafia? Also, what are your thoughts on me toDay?
I would appreciate your thoughts on Rhand, yeah. Also maybe on Proph, outside of his role, if you could.
I hope your insomnia improves soon, by the way - that sounds rough.
The sequence of KCC scumreading Wisp is very... fluid. It feels organic. It feels like she believes in it. And if you're mafia KCC in this situation, why would you push on town Last, who's not dying today, and who's the top poster? So KCC feels natural, agendaless, as well. And her tone feels genuine.
There's a note of discord here, because I feel like there's this sort of gap she's not filling, in how some of her reads interact with each other, or between different observations. She says Proph should mechanically be mafia, but everything still makes sense if he's town, and she doesn't get why he'd target Axel - which are fine observations by themselves, and there's nothing wrong with hedging, but she never joins the observations or comes down on one side, if that makes sense. I don't know how she feels on Proph in the end. She had thoughts about Nacho yesterday and Last today, and thoughts about her wagon, but didn't really put them together.
I'd also forgotten how clean her day 1 wagon was. Not like clean wagons haven't lunched villagers before, I guess.
I'll probably need to go back at some point and reread her day 1 stuff with the counterclaim, and maybe look into that Watchmen game. I at least think she isn't wolves with Proph, and maybe Proph's more likely to be mafia.
This bugs me, and I can't think of a good resolution to it.
If Wisp knows more about what his abilities do, he'd probably know that they were anti-town in some capacity, so I don't get why he would claim when he did, with no provocation or questioning. I also think that if he were mafia and knew more about his abilities, he would probably not have chosen Tranquility on night 0. Plus, from a variety of posts he's made since claiming, I just don't think that he knows what his abilities do.
But if he didn't know what his abilities did... then I guess we could have had a kingmaker, or increased majority, or something on day 1? That seems really weird. Maybe whatever he chose first silently had no effect, or something, but then why not just have his role be n1+? I don't have an answer. Maybe we did all just get lucky.
And completely separately from mechanics, I think Wisp has been towny. It's for kind of squishy reasons, which feels bad, but I've correctly townread him in the past for squishy reasons. His realizations and emotional reactions to things, like the 10 to lynch thing, feel congruent with town him. I feel like some of his pushes haven't gone anywhere, but he feels kind of agendaless in that as well, and I don't doubt his conviction. His read on me was, hm, iirc he townread me when he didn't have to, which did not feel opportunistic in a way I might expect of him as mafia. You could label that as TMI but it didn't... really feel like that, or feel like he's TMIing KCC.
I don't think Wisp saying that he talked about KCC a lot is a lie. He did mention his feelings on her throughout the game, and I think he was referring to that rather than the specific scumread or not-townread on her.
I feel like a part of your scumread on him, KCC, is that you feel that town would not get frustrated or irritated by your questioning, right? But I think it's natural for some people to become frustrated when people push them or ask for reasoning, no matter their alignment. I think Wisp saw "I have no reason to townread you," which he mentioned multiple times, as a fine answer to your question about why he thought you were a good shot, so your continued probing into it was irritating. And now, re: the TMI thing, it's like you're putting something forward and saying "this is wolfy," and reading him as asking "but why are you doing this, I don't understand why you are making this argument?" aka not understanding the possibility that you could be mafia, but I am reading his responses as saying "but why is that wolfy at all, I don't understand the argument itself?" If that makes sense.
I don't know if this is actually what is going on, but it makes sense to me as an interpretation of the situation in the context of me thinking Wisp is town, so uh. Yeah.
KCC, could you refresh me on why you think Rhand is town?
It's possible to have silver check it toNight because his roles are probably investigative?
I guess the role name giving could be a roundabout type of info-gathering that also benefits scum, which is a bit inconvenient. But all of the ability names seem to be pretty vague on what they actually do, so I feel like its main use is probably pro-town-ish as fulcrum said.
silver, I don't think I worded my question to you about fulcrum very well. Could you point to some posts from her that make you think so?
Yeah, I agree it's pretty testable. I think Vezok has the wrong color of orb for that, though - maybe Asta would be a better target since he's supposedly unable to die. Do you think if Proph's telling the truth about what the orbs do, he's town?
Rhand (6) - Vezokpiraka, Silvercrys, Prophylaxis, Killjoy, Asta, Asta
Prophylaxis (2) - Keldeo, lastwhisper
Axelrod (2) - Vaimes, fulcrum
Keldeo (1) – Rhand
Not Voting(4) - dkingsland967, Grapefruit21, Axelrod, KittyCupCake
Rhand, I know we can't force you to if you don't want to or anything, and this is kind of selfish because I'm curious what you can do and why you're so convinced Vaimes can't be town with you, but I think you should claim so that we have all the information in the Vaimes/you situation.
fulcrum - do you think the behavior and claim-related reasons you cited about Vaimes being town are more like "town Vaimes" or "not mafia-with-a-team (i.e. town, or possibly neutral) Vaimes"? I know there's no real reason to speculate on the existence of a third party, but your posts about it laid out the distinction as more of a dichotomy. Same question to Proph, I guess.