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  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Quote from Rhand »
    Axel’s #364 makes me think we just have very opposing views on mafia. I’m still bothered by his semi-RVS and gimmick handling, but I’m going to wait and see.
    My early reads are often good though. I’m conflicted.
    I do know he becomes very strong later in the game if he’s town, so lynching him now on what is mainly a gutread is probably a bad idea.

    Quote from Nacho »
    Why is Axel choosing a semi-serious RVS target bothersome? Why is him confirming his initial read based on KCC's posts bad?

    Scum can feel awkward placing RVS votes and often look for sort of a reason behind them. Town hardly ever goes there and just has fun with the votes.
    Confirming his “read” later on is staying in the safe zone of pushing the RVS vote so he doesn’t have to move it to someone else.

    This, for the record, is Rhand's response to that Axel post I quoted (plus a tidbit on Axel from the same post.) The read on Axel here feels a little bit more like appeasing someone he knows is town (specifically the downplaying of his read as "opposing views on mafia" and "mainly a gutread") than making an excuse to hop off a partner? I'm not actually sure, maybe someone else would find this helpful.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    After that post, Axel doesn't have any "major" mentions of Rhand until after Rhand's claim yesterDay, except as a slight scumread and/or someone he needs to review.

    I do like his criticism of Rhand in posts like 3419 and after, it feels like he put in the work. The mitigating circumstance here is that it came late enough in the day and he was Rhand's counterwagon so being correct on Rhand there isn't necessarily as towny, and he strikes me as the type of person who might "put in the work" in that sense as mafia too. But generally I think Axel looks decent from his side of interactions with Rhand.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Quote from Axelrod »
    Quote from Rhand »

    Claiming a scummy role from the get-go is the townie thing to do. Scum doesn’t like locking themselves into a claim from the start. I know a few players that do things like that, but KCC doesn’t strike me as one of those, unless she is consciously changing up her game. Which is totally unnecessary because she hasn’t played that many games recently that we all know her meta.
    I like her Nacho reaction and have a total mindmeld with her question to Vaimes in #200
    Verdict: town


    The fact that he chose a semi-serious RVS target is bothersome. What is worse is that he uses KCC’s later posts to strengthen that vote. And then he calls tom’s gimmick in itself scummy.
    Verdict: scum
    All right, at the risk of being accused of derailing the game on a point of "theory," let's go here for a minute.

    "Claiming a scummy role from the get-go is the Townie thing to do." At first blush it looks like you are conflating "claiming your scummy role" and "claiming that you have a scummy-sounding role." And while the former might be a thing to do, depending, I would think that claiming the later isn't. I'm trying to imagine how I would act if I got a role PM and it was something I felt like, gee, if I claim this the Town is going to think I am scum for sure. Without speculating too much, my initial thought is that I would feel like I just had to be on my Townie game that game, and just be so super-Townie that I was above suspicion. Or, maybe, I would claim it. Depending on what it was. What I don't see myself doing is going "Hey guys, my role is super-scummy sounding, so, you know, when I claim it, don't hold that against me, kthxby."

    That's me though. I'm not locked that no reasonable person could feel otherwise. But it was worth a vote at a time when the votes are mostly worthless.

    You say that she has "locked" herself into a claim and scum don't like to do that. Except, maybe, the scum who has a scummy sounding role, yes? Wouldn't they just love to be able to claim their role and not worry about how scummy it looks? That's not a newbie-scum move, to be sure. but KCC isn't a newbie. I'm a little confused about your comments about her meta also. Do you think you know it? Or not? You say she doesn't "strike" you as the type to make a gutsy scum move in her 1st post, but where is that coming from? You also point out how she hasn't been around in a while (except for recently, when I don't think she's been scum). So, how does that even follow?

    As for me, what do you find "bothersome" about my "semi-serious" RVS target? Time was, I didn't RVS vote at all, on principle, because I thought they were pointless silly things to do. I got over that. But I think I'm still quicker than most to move past that stage.

    I did want to hear KCC's thoughts about why she made that post. You think that's strange? I suppose, maybe, if you really feel her play was the correct "townie" thing to do. But broaden your horizons a bit. Assuming you didn't have that opinion about her opening post - how would her follow up have reassured you? Would it have? I thought it didn't answer the question at all, except, in the most unhelpful way. Like, she is saying (now) that she hopes that by claiming her role is scummy it will help to avoid a mis-lynch? I just don't think that's so. If she is going to avoid a mis-lynch, it's going to be by playing like a Townie. Scum-day chat also does make a scum-claim like that marginally more likely.

    None of that makes her scum either, but it's still early. I do not get the "town" read for all of her three posts.
    This was the original post that I thought was not w/w between Axel and Rhand - both Rhand's initial read of Axel feeling casual and Axel quoting Rhand's words felt like throwing them back in his face. The latter part is less applicable now that it seems that's a stylistic thing, but the overall read still feels right to me.

    I more strongly don't think Rhand/Axel/KCC are w/w/w based on this post. The bulk of this post is Axel trying to get Rhand to stop townreading KCC / arguing that Rhand's reasons to townread KCC are bad, specifically instead of picking at other reads in Rhand's #300. Positionally, abstractly, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    I do get the point (I think it was silver who said this?) that wolf fulcrum wouldn't have that much to lose by clearing KJ, so I guess it's more of a setup gaming thing, where Vaimes confirmed she had the ability and it doesn't make that much sense on a wolf to me.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    I mean I know I know my own alignment haha, I’m going to do that sit down and analyze people more deeply thing on Saturday because I don’t have time today for more than mobile pop-ins.

    Proph, what do you mean by putting you under the gun? I’m not really the type to bust out a wallpost case or idk, treat someone as outed when I’m not sure, and I’ve had trouble finding confident wolfreads this game. It probably makes me a worse player to not have that confidence, but it’s not really how I think about the game.

    Also, DV confirmed that Preparation for Winter (my summer ability) would probably not be able to be tracked or blocked, depending On the wording of the ability.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    “What do you expect me to find from doing this?”

    I mean what gain do you expect to get from continuing to case me? You have made it very clear that you scumread me and think I should die today. I’m not asking you to find someone else to lynch, I’m always dying today anyway, what I’m asking you is just to get a head start on considering it. It’s fine if if you want to revisit overnight, I guess.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Sorry for snapping. I don’t mean to be combative.

    Axel, your point that I didn’t push Proph and that is suspicious doesn’t make sense, either. Consider the world you are in: I am mafia, Rhand is mafia, Proph is (?). If Proph is town, I should have pushed him harder so that Rhand or I wouldn’t have been in that situation, no? And if Proph is mafia, why make that post saying that people should consolidate onto me/Rhand/Proph at all? I am not someone who will yell at people to lynch my pet read or something.

    If you (general you) are town I’d appreciate if you could consider a world where I’m town, and read Rhand in that context.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Like are you all implying I’m not actually the roleblocker and just decided to insert myself into the disruptive dichotomy here for ??? reasons. I’m not the day killer unless you think Silver is lying or you can come up with a reason a vig shot wouldn’t target someone.

    Me taking an action you personally don’t understand does not mean I’m mafia.

    I understand this means nothing if you’re all that convinced, I’m kind of just typing this out of a sense of pride I guess. Just don’t hammer me, please.

    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    I didn’t want to claim or soft day 1??

    Like what would have made you townread my reaction to KCC’a claim? Saying “hey guys I’m a roleblocker too, what do you think of KCC’a role?” Should I just full claim SOD1 from now on?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    And the interaction stuff about me, I think is from dkings mostly. I was wrong about Rhand/preferred Proph most of yesterday, and he townread Mindreaver and asked me softball questions and I think dkings thinks his push was still partnery.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Oh, KCC asked me about the "non-factional" modifier... Yeah, it made me a bit more accepting of that aspect of the claim as not actually more likely to be scum aligned because hello, my own ability. I think I argued that point to tom(?) about that part of the role not being unrealistic, and I don't think I pressed KCC about that part of the claim when others were.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Sorry for not being able to be here, I've been a bit overwhelmed with other things.

    I will definitely be here starting Saturday afternoon (about 36 hours from now) to finish the ISOing and Rhand interaction stuff I wanted to do.

    I might just focus on putting out a legacy rather than more self-defense because enough people I think are town seem to be stuck on me being mafia and idek who we could even get the lynch onto besides me. But the last time I was in this situation of getting tunneled and did the legacy thing, people ended up lynching the guy I was defending, so dot dot dot

    Quick responses/stuff based on skimming:

    - fulcrum, can you talk me through why KCC's posts seem towny to you? This question comes with no judgment either way on their content since I haven't read them closely.

    - I think I've made it clear that I didn't and don't think a roleblock + no kill on night 1 in role madness is meaningful. Because there are so many alternate possibilities I thought about it and concluded that it shouldn't notably heighten my suspicion of someone - that's why I didn't mention fulcrum being more suspicious to me (because she wasn't) or claim my action. The change from "Keldeo is scummy for not claiming the roleblock" to "Keldeo is scummy for not softing the roleblock" seems like goalpost moving without really understanding my motivations and setup assumptions/beliefs, which are obviously different from y'all's because I come from a different mafia background.

    - re: n2 target, I had my target set to fulcrum nearly all day and don't remember why exactly I changed to dk. As far as I can remember, it had to do with lingering paranoia about dk not having the same number of actions as me (which in hindsight is pretty lol), someone talking about how dk had no other actions, and that made some puzzle pieces click to me about the mafia possibly switching up the killer if they didn't know how the kill was stopped, plus trying to confirm as many passive abilities to be passive as I could. I softed this target the next day as "I had a moment of doubt overNight about dk, but I feel better on him now that Asta confirmed his bodyguard" or something, I can look up the actual post later

    - I also don't actually know if my summer ability can be tracked/blocked - I didn't get a response from DV when I asked a few weeks ago and didn't really want to be impolite by pressing it, but I'll ask again now. The idea that I have this super powerful unblockable untraceable roleblock and then decided to waste it on two passive ability users is kinda silly to me, but I get that you guys are concerned that I could have lied about my targets or something. I did soft my dk target (see above) but not very strongly.

    - I don't understand the Killjoy / Axel / Vaimes ability copying thing, but I'll take it at face value and assume that his claim will explain things. I'm fine with that claim coming later.

    - I am pretty sure Asta is just town here, I don't really think KCC's objection holds water because even assuming that she's town and has that similar thing, the bus drive is active but having a double vote is passive. Like it would be weirder for me if Asta had a separate ability that allowed him to use a passive ability, which seems to be what KCC is suggesting. And I guess that one ability tom had is not exactly the same, but it seems to be another thing that "can be activated in [season]" without a second ability.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Hi! I've only skimmed since I was last here, and I am too tired now to go through thoroughly and respond to everything, sorry. I don't know if I'll be able to be around tonight either, so I'll try to answer questions and finish looking at people by Tuesday or Wednesday. ^^"

    Anyway, again, don't hammer please. Let me get my thoughts out about people and defend myself and see if I can change your minds, and even if you don't think you're changing your mind, then do it to let other people get their thoughts out and get the most out of that Friends chat thing.


    Vezok is confirmed mason.

    Killjoy's not mafia, according to fulcrum and Vaimes. I'm not entirely sure why fulcrum would take this line if Killjoy were not her partner (i.e. if he were 3p, all she would know was that he was not mafia). I don't really think he's fulcrum's partner, either. KJ and fulcrum had this multi-post conversation early on about Killjoy being suspicious of Gemma withholding meta on Nacho, where Killjoy presented his suspicion to fulcrum asking for feedback, and fulcrum sort of leveraged a theory about what Gemma was doing to dismiss it, despite Killjoy continuing to ask her about it. I feel like that conversation would have looked different if they were partners, which is about the vaguest way I can put it but that's how I feel. Also I think Rhand and KJ's early interactions are not w/w.

    Sure there's the tinfoil theory of KJ/Vaimes/fulcrum being like a third party cult faction or something, but it's a bit too out there for me to want to entertain right now. Also, I wanted to note that fulcrum softed a positive result on KJ yesterDay, so it can't have been something she made up toDay.


    I talked about this in broad terms earlier, but Rhand's approach to Vaimes's claim on day 2 seems pretty not partners-y. He's really consistently critical, when he'd have room not to be. (2362, 2602) Vaimes's posts back at him are also fairly incredulous - e.g. 2589. The fun part here is Rhand playing coy about how his role and Vaimes's role couldn't coexist as town, when actually the similarity was pretty tenuous. To me, that feels a lot more likely to be something he'd do to a townie while avoiding responsibility for his push until he had to claim, than something he'd do to a buddy. It's crossed my mind that Rhand could have manufactured the push to get them cred but I feel like Vaimes was in a pretty decent position given fulcrum defending him (pre-him giving her an item, even), so there would really be no need to do that.

    Asta hasn't done anything strong one way or the other, but I don't think his role is mafia. I doubt Rhand picked out something bad about his partner Asta and gave him a lean scum instead of leaving him at another null in his post 300. I kind of doubt Rhand calls out Asta voting twice in a tone that seems like he was surprised by it, if he's partners with him. I kiiind of doubt partner Asta behaves like he did toward Rhand yesterday, his double vote kept the wagon going.

    Vaimes confirmed fulcrum's ability, and like I said, I don't really see Fulcrum clearing a non-partner like that, or being partners with specifically KJ. There's also the not w/w with Rhand stuff I noted on like D2 (2958), which I ~still believe in.

    If we're flipping me today, get dkings to reevaluate and stuff after. Maaaybe look at him if he's alive in like late endgame, because I don't have enough wolves, the mod confirmation thing is weird, I get more of a sense of agenda from dkings than from Asta, Rhand pushing for a third wagon EOD1 maybe makes some amount of sense if dkings/KCC is w/w. Bodyguard probably isn't mafia, though? And dkings said some things that would be really on the nose if dkings/KCC/Rhand/.. was the team (2474). Also, dkings has probably locked himself into pushing KCC after me given what he's said about Rhand? So I'd probably even-more-mostly-clear him if KCC flips w at some point.

    I haven't finished looking at these people:

    1. Silvercrys3467
    2. Lastwhisper
    3. Prophylaxis
    10. Axelrod

    I haven't finished looking at KCC/Rhand stuff either, but she's the person I'd like to kill most out of the people I got a chance to look at. Rhand had da strong townread on her for most of the game, which isn't bad in itself but specifically I feel as though Rhand would have flipped on her at some point if he could push her as a mislynch, which has definitely been plausible, but he kept going on a strong townread of her from her first posts, meta reasons, and her voting Nacho with him day 1. You can look at Rhand walking back his early meta-ish townread of Mindreaver as an example of him opening up a mislynch opportunity as the thread attitudes shifted. dot dot dot

    Vote KittyCupCake
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    I'm confused. Obviously if I had red checked fulcrum or something that was more compelling, I'd have claimed and voted and pressured her, but I don't think a roleblock on a night with no kill is tantamount to a red check at all in a role madness game. It's like a track, a result doesn't give you something you should base a push in imo. There are so many other reasons for the kill to have been stopped.

    Like, if I had claimed the roleblock, what would we have gotten out of it? Regardless of her alignment, I think fulcrum would have just said she didn't carry the kill so there must've been some other thing that stopped the kill. That doesn't get us anywhere if other protectives/disruptives don't want to claim, and just outs my role unnecessarily.

    And now I feel like fulcrum is probably v because Vaimes is vouching for an ability that seems much more beneficial on town than mafia (I don't really understand the utility of it as a weak rolecop, it's pretty roundabout and uninformative), and I don't think Vaimes is w with Rhand. Also she tracked me, which seems okay? (this is also true of Silver, where he's been pointing to stuff that increases chances for me and Proph to be town, and I feel like he might just cruise control into lunching the POE given his pretty decent position in the threadstate.) But then I'm not sure where the n1 kill went unless like, KJ is doctor or something. It makes me wonder whether it's possible the daykill is like a factional option to make it day instead of night, which also solves the "stapled to a role" thing? The sun flavor thing is an interesting peek but I don't think it fits anyone's flavor *but* Gemma's.

    Actually V/LA until Sundayish now. Please give me the weekend at least to read Rhand.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Ever Changing Seasons Mafia - April Tempests love Scum Remnants Mafia Victory
    Quote from fulcrum »
    Could you have just not targeted?
    I could've, but that's throwing away my chance to do anything. I was thinking of it this way: If you/dkings are town, blocking you definitely does nothing, which is miles better than potentially blocking a cop or doctor or something. If you/dkings mafia, it has a chance to maybe do something, like block the kill or an active ability you were lying about.
    Posted in: Mafia
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