But, ehh, I can understand that uncertainty you express about the claim.
Why do you think she would want to use her abilities in a townie-looking way from the get go, if mafia, instead of what Silver was saying about not softing and just blocking/disrupting whoever?
I guess where I’m going with that is it feels a little bit misrepresentative of her claim to say that, and to say that while not really committing to a read on her.
A role-blocker doesn't have to be detrimental to Town. Even though scum tend to get better use out of it, it's really kind of a push when it stops scum and Townie abilities equally. But her's doesn't? It stops the Town ability but not the scum one?
Yeah, I see that. What I’m saying is a normal roleblocker stops all mafia abilities if used on mafia, and all town abilities if used on town. Her claim stops some mafia abilities if used on mafia and all town abilities if used on town. So I feel like if she’s town, it has equal potential to be detrimental to town, and less potential but still some potential to be detrimental to mafia - which isn’t really “actively” detrimental imo.
And also, Axel, do you think that antitownness makes KCC mafia, or town with a scummy sounding ability, or do you have more ambivalent thoughts? Talk to me about your ideas there. If she’s mafia how do you view her soft and claim?
KCC, given what you talked about re: people possibly defending me, how does that change your read on my slot?
Oh, okay. That makes sense, Silver.
No linger being able to act on consensus town is a detriment, I agree, but there are always gonna be villagers in the POE she could still act on, right?
Axel, why do you characterize that ability as actively detrimental to town? I feel like RB is always detrimental to town if it targets town PRs, no matter whether it has that added effect of blocking the NK or not.
Alright, finally fully caught up! Autautomerging this post so I don't run afoul of forum multiposting rules:
I think KJ's flexibility on the topic of my slot in 958 also feels towny. As tom points out, the read itself doesn't totally mesh with the wagon comp and I suppose he could have been TRing me to grab cred, but that seems a bit on-the-nose when that post is about gaining cred/town points for being right on me in a hypothetical. I'm not swayed by KJ's Rhand case, though. The things he says are unnatural or tonally off read fine to me.
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Not sure what to make of Wisp's seemingly resigning in post 1014. I feel like the sentiment is kind of towny, and so is his getting other reads out after that. I feel like a mafia there might just take the excuse to just "give up" and drop out of the thread?
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I want to say the tenor of KCC's question to dk in 1019 is not likely w/w. "assuming the self is mafia to someone who you know knows this and the answer to your question feels revealing" or something like that. Also KCC flipping from townreading to scumreading dk recently, I haven't looked deeply into their other interactions.
Does this make sense?
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I guess the thrust of my pushback against the KCC train is the idea that seeming indifference to solving, indifference to being pushed on, and low-impact/relevance or piecemeal approaches can still come from town. The scumread on her (and also the one on dk?) seems to mostly be general and approach-based, I usually have a harder time grasping this type than something more micro, and her posts all scan fine from a micro standpoint to me. She's noted little things, such as agreeing with KJ/Rhand v/v and clearing Grapefruit, that seem towny in the micro because they make her appear kind of agendaless. But I guess the floaty, one-liner-responses type of wolf doesn't usually need to (or want to) push some agenda strongly. (I think these people are all probably? TMIed town if she is a wolf.)
Dumb read: without context I think 1118-1122 are >rand not w/w, also >rand for grape to be the wolf there if it's w/v
With context now, I still agree with this.
I have liked Grapefruit's observations and remember nebulous good things about Sloth before him , but it's not a super strong read.
@Grapefruit, can you talk about why you townread fulcrum?
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I like the fact of Nacho's read on dk existing.
re: the point about his second entrance, though, I think some aspects of his focus at least are understandable. He doesn't really mention Gemma before that post so I think him asking Nacho why he isn't concerned about Gemma buddying him as a possibility would make sense.
Actually, I'm inclined to say asking a question to a townread about someone who they townread and you have no read on might be more likely to take the form of "why do you townread this person?" instead of "why aren't you concerned about them possibly buddying you?" While I could see town posting the latter still, it's still casting doubt on someone who's probably a villager - though maybe that just speaks to how I personally would phrase the question.
@Nacho, just to clarify, you think that if dk is mafia he's TMIing Vaimes town early on? I know you had Vaimes as lower tier-town earlier, so I guess I'm just asking whether a potential dk mafia flip would solidify your read.
Also, could you talk about why you placed Vaimes there?
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Vaimes, looking forward to your ideas on why not to kill dk and KCC!
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Roughly ordered townreads:
Vezok
Gemma
Nacho (general solviness and decent posts, don't think The Fear will be going away anytime soon but don't want to go for him today), Silver, KJ, Asta, Wisp (congruence with town tone and approach imo - caveat is that I only have secondhand, old experience with wolf him)
Will be replaced, not interested in killing today: Jackrito/shadowlancerx
I should sleep. Will work on the bottom tier tomorrow, it's irritatingly large because I don't know where to go within it but also irritatingly small because I feel like I might also be clearing too many people.
I get the feeling of the "energy" KCC mentions above, but I think the desire to get the slot out of the game or subbed is a natural reaction when a player hasn't posted in a lot of days, and I don't think there was that much resistance to my slot's lynch? iirc multiple people seemed okay with hammering.
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
K I'm back! Gonna do stuff now. Got a few pages to read harder.
Welcome, Jackarito and Grape.
@dkingsland: First, do you believe Vezok's claim? You made a big old post in 801 about her, but following her claim on your post back there was a noticeable lack of comment on that. You moved your vote, sure but given the conviction in that read I was expecting a little more. Second question for you here is a two-parter: If you believe the claim, who are the scum pushing him when he claimed, and if you don't believe it, do you think the wagon is pure?
Vezok: If you indeed have a mason partner, they should not claim yet. That role will be much more useful with fewer people alive.
Axel: So you have a reason to scumread him, cool. So you apparently are scumreading him enough for legit want to lynch him.
You didn't actually answer the rest of my question though. Why is [basically inactive player with bravado with no follow through] better than [players who are here and with enough poking you could make a decently strong case against] to lynch? Why are you satisfied with such a weak-ass case?
Vaimes: re: fulcrum's point about defending: Her point is not wholly without merit, Vaimes. Your resistance to it isn't entirely uncalled for either, but her point is mostly correct, I'd say. The only correction I'd make is to say that "removing someone from the lynch list isn't only ignoring, but is also defending." I'm not a huge fan of your reaction to this accusation, nor her vote.
Also while I'm actively scumreading Rhand, I do agree with the focus on LHF. On that point, what do you think about Axel? He's been very vocal about how scummy Mind is. Do you think he's trying to attack the low hanging fruit?
Talk to me about tom as well. He keeps kinda defaulting to voting Mind. Now I think he's voting you. Is he scum?
Same with KCC actually. She's recently made a mini-post about Mind that has him as scum. Is she attacking the low-hanging Mind too?
Discuss those three reads for me.
Silver: Why are you voting Mindreaver, then saying you don't want (a lynching amount of) more votes on him in the next few days? Wouldn't not voting, but declaring he was scum or something achieve that goal a little more?
Fulcrum: On your reads list, you have tom as town(ish). Can you give examples as to why?
God, 915 dropped my read on Asta a bit. Specifically his reads are like, opposite mine quite a few times. Not sure whats up there.
935 possibly feels sincere though. I'll dwell on that.
Rhand: Why does that post (941) make Vaimes look good unless Grape is scum with him?
Gemma: Maybe by 'best poster' he's referring to the poster he's printed out and hung above his bed. It's the only explanation I can find for me being up there as well.
Even though some of the questions in this post of KJ's are kind of leading (specifically the questions to Vaimes are structured a bit like "You said you dislike x, y person did x, are they scum to you?"), I think the way they're formulated is towny. He's not using the question as a proxy to shade y person - he seems to be trying to understand and track the progression of the person he's asking in these questions, and the construction of such a question is probey in that it inherent requires him to notice other people doing x.
I can't tell if grape is defending DK because they're wolves together or if grape is just legit uncertain. I can't say I agree with grape reading axel, fulcrum, and tom as scum right now-- they seem like generally odd choices, but maybe grape saw something I didn't. Axel is back and posting again, so I might better pick up a town/scum read in a little bit when I get back.
FWIW I'm not scum reading Fulcrum, just repeatedly saying I fully believe she'd be able to fool me. If I ignore my repsect/fear of her scum game I'd have her as a squishy town lean.
Anyway:
Silver is town enough for today for all the reasons stated earlier and his vote count digging today.
Last is town for a a few reasons but most strongly a linguistic tell.
Vez is town for the mason claim.
KJ is town for the Rhand saga.
Asta is town for being an agengdaless presence. He could be coached into it but it would require stellar play from him and one of Tom, Nacho, or Fulcrum as a buddy. Maybe Gemma, Axel, Rhand, or DK could pull it off but I think it probably would have to be one of those first 3.
Gemma, DK, Vaimes, Nacho, and Fulcrum are players I'm not interested toDay at all. They've given enough that they either impress me as generally townie without a defining moment or have a moment that gives me doubts they're scum but no overall impression. Vaimes is the closest falling out of that group mostly by peer pressure and self doubt.
That leaves me with Jackrito!slot, KCC, Rhand, Keldeo, Axel, and tom as my pool for toDay. Going to a quick dive on each of those except tom and JacklancerX an see if anything sticks out.
Oh yeah, Grapefruit, what did you like about silver's votecount digging? None of it really came across as something that would be overly difficult to fake as mafia.
At the moment I'm looking at KCC again to remember what I didn't like about her play. But in the course of doing that I have had a tiny insight on Fulcrum so I'm stopping and posting that. Which is this post:
I'm kind of actually angry about the tom thing, and that's not a healthy response, so I'm going to give myself a break from this for a bit. Ping me if you need me (there are pings, right?).
And my tiny insight is that I don't think this post ever comes from scum, regardless of whether Tom is scum or not. The sentiment being expressed here is too genuine. He's really upset about Tom atm and I don't think that's fake.
If Fulcrum were scum, and Tom was Town, then, he'd either be thinking (1) Tom's got a posting restriction - which is not something to get angry about, or (2) Tom's goofing - which, if you are scum, is not something to get angry about but something to be happy about because his goofing is clearly turning some people off and not helping the Town basically at all.
If Fulcrum was scum with Tom, then they'd be talking about it in the day-chat presumably. And again, there would be no reason for Fulcrum to be upset about it, except in the very, very corner case where he's strongly disagreeing with Tom's (presumably) faking a post restriction and Tom's ignoring his wishes and doing it anyway. In which case the sentiment expressed above - that he's angry with Tom - could be true, but not for the reasons we think.
That's it. Maybe I'm being snowed by an extremely meta/clever post, but I don't think so.
Hey Axel, could you talk a bit more about KCC, particularly her content? You said you were looking for what you didn't like about her earlier, but all you posted was this point on fulcrum and a bit about your earlier post on her leaving V/LA.
Probably about time to say the Vaimes vote was a reaction test/for the belief that Vaimes is more polarized under pressure/honestly partly just because I wanted to. But he ended up, like... just posting his final conclusions in response and being like "yeah that's what I think, that's a wrap," which I feel like he would do regardless of alignment, and which makes sense either way because I didn't really have a reason for him to poke at or anything. I don't actually SR him for anything and I'm meh on killing him if it's usually true that he can clear himself later on if town? as long as we stick to that because just not wanting to pull the trigger right now for possible later value can result in the sentiment carrying on, even when unjustified, by inertia.
Unvote
I don't know where to put my vote though, I don't really feel great about wanting to kill anyone.
wrt KCC, on the one hand I see the argument against her, but on the other hand it's not damning to me and/or I keep talking myself out of it. Like, I'm not really, strongly convinced by the case, I feel like I can see both sides. She was sort of just meandering along and that and kind of TRing probably her biggest alternative dk feels... more agendaless than not. But when I go back and look at her posts it's not really anything that I'd see as difficult to fake as mmafia, there is nothing I've seen that makes her a strong townread to me.
The fact that I can see both sides probably makes her a better option than someone I'm townreading?
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
Sorry, I'm not following this part, could you rephrase or expand on it? I don't really see how the first part is treating my slot with kid gloves, because he is definitely critical of Mind's posts there - not explicitly, but the questions he asks are definitely critical and give me the sense that he's building to a scumread on him, and the later suspicion seems to be following from that. Is the fact that he isn't explicitly SRing Mind in the first post what you're getting at here?
I guess if he thought Mind's Hogan gif was over-the-top in a scummy way, the sort of throwaway/joke response he originally had doesn't make as much sense.
dk's posts all sort of washed over me as "sure okay, this is reasonable," I should probably give them a closer look.
Gemma I phrased that poorly, I knew that KCC was responding to the push. I wanted to know what KCC thought of the push as an entity above and beyond something to just defend against (these are not the right words but maybe this still makes sense?) and what she thought of Nacho in relation to his push, given the way she was defending herself while not really seeming to delve into his possible motivations or anything beyond addressing its content, as he said. I'm still not too sure how she got to where she is on Nacho but from "Nacho still seems okay" it seems like his push didn't move the needle all that much.
I think I'm straight-up too tired to finish catchup right now, sorry. I have a good chunk of time tomorrow night to be here.
Why do you think she would want to use her abilities in a townie-looking way from the get go, if mafia, instead of what Silver was saying about not softing and just blocking/disrupting whoever?
Yeah, I see that. What I’m saying is a normal roleblocker stops all mafia abilities if used on mafia, and all town abilities if used on town. Her claim stops some mafia abilities if used on mafia and all town abilities if used on town. So I feel like if she’s town, it has equal potential to be detrimental to town, and less potential but still some potential to be detrimental to mafia - which isn’t really “actively” detrimental imo.
KCC, given what you talked about re: people possibly defending me, how does that change your read on my slot?
No linger being able to act on consensus town is a detriment, I agree, but there are always gonna be villagers in the POE she could still act on, right?
Axel, why do you characterize that ability as actively detrimental to town? I feel like RB is always detrimental to town if it targets town PRs, no matter whether it has that added effect of blocking the NK or not.
Silver, I follow the start of that post, but what exactly does it mean/how would it play out for KCC to “plan on not getting rolecopped”?
I think KJ's flexibility on the topic of my slot in 958 also feels towny. As tom points out, the read itself doesn't totally mesh with the wagon comp and I suppose he could have been TRing me to grab cred, but that seems a bit on-the-nose when that post is about gaining cred/town points for being right on me in a hypothetical. I'm not swayed by KJ's Rhand case, though. The things he says are unnatural or tonally off read fine to me.
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Not sure what to make of Wisp's seemingly resigning in post 1014. I feel like the sentiment is kind of towny, and so is his getting other reads out after that. I feel like a mafia there might just take the excuse to just "give up" and drop out of the thread?
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I want to say the tenor of KCC's question to dk in 1019 is not likely w/w. "assuming the self is mafia to someone who you know knows this and the answer to your question feels revealing" or something like that. Also KCC flipping from townreading to scumreading dk recently, I haven't looked deeply into their other interactions.
Does this make sense?
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I guess the thrust of my pushback against the KCC train is the idea that seeming indifference to solving, indifference to being pushed on, and low-impact/relevance or piecemeal approaches can still come from town. The scumread on her (and also the one on dk?) seems to mostly be general and approach-based, I usually have a harder time grasping this type than something more micro, and her posts all scan fine from a micro standpoint to me. She's noted little things, such as agreeing with KJ/Rhand v/v and clearing Grapefruit, that seem towny in the micro because they make her appear kind of agendaless. But I guess the floaty, one-liner-responses type of wolf doesn't usually need to (or want to) push some agenda strongly. (I think these people are all probably? TMIed town if she is a wolf.)
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With context now, I still agree with this.
I have liked Grapefruit's observations and remember nebulous good things about Sloth before him , but it's not a super strong read.
@Grapefruit, can you talk about why you townread fulcrum?
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I like the fact of Nacho's read on dk existing.
re: the point about his second entrance, though, I think some aspects of his focus at least are understandable. He doesn't really mention Gemma before that post so I think him asking Nacho why he isn't concerned about Gemma buddying him as a possibility would make sense.
Actually, I'm inclined to say asking a question to a townread about someone who they townread and you have no read on might be more likely to take the form of "why do you townread this person?" instead of "why aren't you concerned about them possibly buddying you?" While I could see town posting the latter still, it's still casting doubt on someone who's probably a villager - though maybe that just speaks to how I personally would phrase the question.
@Nacho, just to clarify, you think that if dk is mafia he's TMIing Vaimes town early on? I know you had Vaimes as lower tier-town earlier, so I guess I'm just asking whether a potential dk mafia flip would solidify your read.
Also, could you talk about why you placed Vaimes there?
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Vaimes, looking forward to your ideas on why not to kill dk and KCC!
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Roughly ordered townreads:
Vezok
Gemma
Nacho (general solviness and decent posts, don't think The Fear will be going away anytime soon but don't want to go for him today), Silver, KJ, Asta, Wisp (congruence with town tone and approach imo - caveat is that I only have secondhand, old experience with wolf him)
Will be replaced, not interested in killing today: Jackrito/shadowlancerx
Other people, alphabetical: Axelrod, dkingsland967, fulcrum, Grapefruit21/Slothful, KittyCupCake, Rhand, tomsloger, Vaimes
I should sleep. Will work on the bottom tier tomorrow, it's irritatingly large because I don't know where to go within it but also irritatingly small because I feel like I might also be clearing too many people.
KCC, could you look back and talk about who specifically you think was pushing the attitude to "set aside Mind's content, and give him a chance to come back", and who you think are the scum who made you pop up as a wagon? Because I do see Nacho's point there that while those ideas mesh in theory, you seem to be townreading the people who in that situation would be mafia (protecting their partner, my slot).
Even though some of the questions in this post of KJ's are kind of leading (specifically the questions to Vaimes are structured a bit like "You said you dislike x, y person did x, are they scum to you?"), I think the way they're formulated is towny. He's not using the question as a proxy to shade y person - he seems to be trying to understand and track the progression of the person he's asking in these questions, and the construction of such a question is probey in that it inherent requires him to notice other people doing x.
Hey Axel, could you talk a bit more about KCC, particularly her content? You said you were looking for what you didn't like about her earlier, but all you posted was this point on fulcrum and a bit about your earlier post on her leaving V/LA.
Probably about time to say the Vaimes vote was a reaction test/for the belief that Vaimes is more polarized under pressure/honestly partly just because I wanted to. But he ended up, like... just posting his final conclusions in response and being like "yeah that's what I think, that's a wrap," which I feel like he would do regardless of alignment, and which makes sense either way because I didn't really have a reason for him to poke at or anything. I don't actually SR him for anything and I'm meh on killing him if it's usually true that he can clear himself later on if town? as long as we stick to that because just not wanting to pull the trigger right now for possible later value can result in the sentiment carrying on, even when unjustified, by inertia.
Unvote
I don't know where to put my vote though, I don't really feel great about wanting to kill anyone.
wrt KCC, on the one hand I see the argument against her, but on the other hand it's not damning to me and/or I keep talking myself out of it. Like, I'm not really, strongly convinced by the case, I feel like I can see both sides. She was sort of just meandering along and that and kind of TRing probably her biggest alternative dk feels... more agendaless than not. But when I go back and look at her posts it's not really anything that I'd see as difficult to fake as mmafia, there is nothing I've seen that makes her a strong townread to me.
The fact that I can see both sides probably makes her a better option than someone I'm townreading?
Sorry, I'm not following this part, could you rephrase or expand on it? I don't really see how the first part is treating my slot with kid gloves, because he is definitely critical of Mind's posts there - not explicitly, but the questions he asks are definitely critical and give me the sense that he's building to a scumread on him, and the later suspicion seems to be following from that. Is the fact that he isn't explicitly SRing Mind in the first post what you're getting at here?
I guess if he thought Mind's Hogan gif was over-the-top in a scummy way, the sort of throwaway/joke response he originally had doesn't make as much sense.
dk's posts all sort of washed over me as "sure okay, this is reasonable," I should probably give them a closer look.
I think I'm straight-up too tired to finish catchup right now, sorry. I have a good chunk of time tomorrow night to be here.