I don't really think I'm getting much more out of a dk ISO, in a vacuum, outside of him seeming as reasonable, measured, low-impact as he did while I was catching up.
It's worth noting that KCC's vague townread on him ("kind of liking" his posts in ISO) doesn't actually go anywhere material after being mentioned. So I don't think that makes that w/w motivated necessarily. She continues to shade him, and of course votes him.
From dk's side of things these mildly make me think not partners:
I should have posted a V/LA earlier in the week. We hosted Thanksgiving dinner last night, so I've got a bunch of cleanup to do today and then I'm hosting my annual bourbon tasting party tonight. I should have free time on Sunday so I'll actually dig into everything that has happened since vezok's claim then.
Unvote
Vote KCC
Looks like Mindreaver is gonna be replaced, so I'm going to park my vote here for now. I think it's very likely that exactly one of the rush votes after I posted my case on vezok came from scum, and KCC's is the most dubious when coupled with earlier play.
I have thought Killjoy was scum the last two games I played with him (I think) and been wrong both times. I am not getting a scummy feeling from him this game yet.
So, are you getting better, Killjoy, or is this scum you?
KJ has been taking steps to improve his town game since Modern, and it's been working well
This is town kj
I'm not sure I can properly articulate it, but this just feels weird. Modern wasn't that long ago, and I do acknowledge that KCC was scum in the micro where they offed Killjoy N1, but... this post still has a buddying vibe.
Also, I've now got an annoying tingle in the back of my mind that this might be scum!KCC warning teammate Axelrod off a bad lynch. I think I need to review Axelrod's needling of her and see if I think it's all for appearances.
Why single out a partner to vote into contention over any of the other options, like just making a PTAP and not moving his vote?
And the second post just feels a little too TMIy/revealing if they are partners - like, he could have made some throwaway comment or just not singled out anything from her ISO. He had another post where he called KCC/me w/v, is he just that kind of wolf?
Now, I am ******* tired, but a few thoughts based on this fresh revelation (and some other things):
Keldeo and Axelrod go up up up in towncred with this flip. More Keldeo than Axelrod, but Keldeo was the only person that KCC pushed in any significant way and I'm fairly confident that she wouldn't do that "haha I have a scummy role" and then proceed to push no one but her partner. Wrt Axelrod, I think if he was scum then the day probably would have turned out differently than "bus partner for 70% of the day then when she's actually get lynched wring my hands and do nothing".
Vaimes and DK both lose a bit of stock. With DK, don't know who pointed it out, but KCC not jumping on him is a very odd move if she's scum here - unless they're partners. Vaimes is one that I'm more conflicted about because I know there's bias there (still hate his push on me, surprise, surprise), but him dismissing the cases on both KCC and DK and using that as a reason to ignore the wagons is terrible.
That was me, so I understand the thrust of the read on dk. But if KCC and dk are partners, what are the other wolves doing? Just twiddling their thumbs letting two wolves get run up as the wagons for the day?
I know there are people pushing against both as wagons - like Vaimes, as you mention. But the prominent presence of both wagons for what seems like a good amount of the day makes me hmm.
I don't remember who townread him off "Silver fanning the flames on Mindreaver = sneaky no trust" or maybe I'm just making that up? But he also had Mindreaver as scummy so I'm not sure how that fits together. Like, he said that Silver was suspicious for avoiding responsibility for lynching Mindreaver by saying "we should get this over with" with the "we", but if he thinks Mind is scummy, I don't understand why avoiding responsibility for the lynch is a bad thing - it's only a bad thing after Mindreaver flips town.
That was me, sort of, it's more to do with being used to people thinking my tone is weird and his whole progression on me felt like he was doing that and using my handling of the mindreaver wagon to justify why he thought I felt weird.
I was gonna say I think you're projecting this idea that town who scumread you think your tone is weird onto the actual read he made, but his elaboration on it later was actually pretty founded on your wording and it "sounding wrong". I obviously can't speak to your meta, though, and the fact that the substance of his read on you doesn't really match with his read on my slot still bothers me.
idk I mean, I vibe with the idea of the not w/w read Nacho made on Axel/KCC, which is in his favor too. But also, I don't really feel like solving for aligns/antialigns before a flip just because days are so long
Actually just had a brainwave and I think KCC's role makes a lot of sense from a design perspective as town in a game with masons. It's a lot of (theoretical) town power concentrated in a role that doesn't use night actions at all. It obviously depends on what else there is so it's not conclusive but it does make sense.
Grapefruit, could you reword this second sentence? I'm having trouble parsing it.
And yes I know KCC isn't really close to hammer but without automatic vote counts I don't want to risk it.
Writing out how I feel about this mostly for my own benefit - I trust Nacho more than I trust Kitty in general, Kitty's claimed role is honestly pretty powerful as a wolf, but I also have trouble wrapping my head around why Nacho would choose to do this if he is a wolf and she is a villager. Like, KCC has been losing a little bit of traction recently, but I feel like she is definitely mislynchable without going this far - he could've just chosen to hammer home his cases, push KCC's claim as wolf-indicative, etc. and just pretend to eat crow next phase. But with what he's done, after she flips, he's just dying within the next cycle. And he'd be one of the most engaged wolves in any team, why not have anyone else on the team CC her.
Them being w/w would require one of his most prominent pushes to have been a buddy... of course, if he's going for the hard bus with this, here, that's not out of the question (just in the abstract, without looking at how they've interacted.) But this scenario isn't something I'd really consider unless and until he's alive late.
And if Nacho's a villager, he's saying KCC's really likely to be a wolf based on his role.
Could people talk to me about Axelrod? I think he's a bit of a blind spot to me. Taking a quick look at his posts -
He feels a bit like he's struggling to get a grip on the thread and has posted a good amount about how he doesn't have a ton of time and needs more hard info and stuff to work with. I think this is probably NAI unless he's known for being demotivated as one alignment?
I don't remember who townread him off "Silver fanning the flames on Mindreaver = sneaky no trust" or maybe I'm just making that up? But he also had Mindreaver as scummy so I'm not sure how that fits together. Like, he said that Silver was suspicious for avoiding responsibility for lynching Mindreaver by saying "we should get this over with" with the "we", but if he thinks Mind is scummy, I don't understand why avoiding responsibility for the lynch is a bad thing - it's only a bad thing after Mindreaver flips town.
Also noting the fact that he had dk in his town tier with little elaboration but hasn't really looked at the current dk wagon or tried to convince people on him. I can definitely understand if he's had time issues and hasn't been able to focus on that in the thread.
--
Axel, could you talk a bit more about why you saw dk as "fine" and gave him a townread in #948? Does that still apply, do you have any opinion of the cases against him if you've looked at them?
Mmm so without having reread the cases on her, I don't really want to kill KCC? I guess I've been building to this for a while so it's a bit founded in devil's advocateness, and I don't have a good alternative atm, but, like. If she flips town, it'd feel a bit like a shrug, I personally wouldn't really get anything out of it in that I already think this case is more likely. And I think the most suspect person on her wagon right now is dk, everyone else there as of the latest VC I feel pretty good about. If she flips mafia we actually learn a good amount from her spew I'd think... but I'm still not convinced that she will.
I mean, maybe it's WIFOMy to read as much into the soft/claim stuff as I've been wanting to. There's nothing super impressive about her posting. I guess the posts where she talked about how she felt on people moving off me and pushing her demonstrated a decent amount of facility speaking about a world that isn't true, but that's not that difficult.
vezok, would really like to know more about your reasons for wolfreading KCC. Is it mostly meta / her not being like how she's been when you've played with town her? I guess I should take a look at her past games.
KCC, I don't 100% understand why you'd want to holster the blocking ability. If town, you should want to block mafia, right? And since this is a role heavy game, blocking any mafia will probably end up having a pro-town effect of preventing some action even if you can't block the kill.
fulcrum, I understand what you're saying about this inconsistency in grape's read on you. Do you think what you've pointed out from him is mafia indicative more than other suspects? Like if he's w and you're v I understand why he'd want to represent that type of read, to keep from clearing you and to discredit you, but I don't really see how his progression on you is unrealistic or impossible for if you're v/v (like, sentiment of "this person has a scary wolfgame, but she's probably a townlean if I disregard that, but I'm not gonna clear her"). I know you said you wanted to wagon there, I guess I'm asking you if you could elaborate on where this observation leads you.
Grape, sorry, your most recent post confuses me. Do you wanna wagon DK or tom more?
Also this is completely unrelated to anything, but can I ask why you're grapefruit21 on Mafia Universe and Grapefruit21 here?
Think my main issue is that I've read the cases against dk and KCC, and I just don't really vibe with them. They're mostly highlighting things that I don't find to be scummy for the individuals in question. I don't even want to lunch Keldeo that much, but if those three are the only options, then I'd prefer to kill Keldeo just because of all the fuss Mind caused.
I'll reread the cases, but the first time I went over Nacho's/Gemma's posts about KCC slash dk, it didn't really do anything for me.
Okay. I can get just not seeing the cases, but do you have any thoughts on KCC and dk's posts yourself?
We still have time before EOD. Where would you want to go if you could unilaterally decide like 2-3 wagons to be in contention?
Mm, I think that’s a good summation of where I am, fulcrum. I don’t know enough to try to setup meta this either.
Forgive me if you’ve answered these recently, I can’t iso right now - where are you at on me? And I remember you said you felt a little adrift and wanted a suspect, that might have been longer ago than it’d seem to me but have any of the cases presented since then swayed you strongly?
I'll be around close to the deadline, but probably not that much tomorrow.
It's worth noting that KCC's vague townread on him ("kind of liking" his posts in ISO) doesn't actually go anywhere material after being mentioned. So I don't think that makes that w/w motivated necessarily. She continues to shade him, and of course votes him.
From dk's side of things these mildly make me think not partners:
Why single out a partner to vote into contention over any of the other options, like just making a PTAP and not moving his vote?
Vaimes(3) - fulcrum, tom, Wisp
KittyCupCake(2) - Nachomamma8, Gemma
vezokpiraka(2) - dkingsland967, Keldeo
Dkingsland967(1) - Asta
Rhand(1) - Killjoy
Not Voting(3) - Grapefruit21, Jackrito, Rhand, Axel
And the second post just feels a little too TMIy/revealing if they are partners - like, he could have made some throwaway comment or just not singled out anything from her ISO. He had another post where he called KCC/me w/v, is he just that kind of wolf?
That was me, so I understand the thrust of the read on dk. But if KCC and dk are partners, what are the other wolves doing? Just twiddling their thumbs letting two wolves get run up as the wagons for the day?
I know there are people pushing against both as wagons - like Vaimes, as you mention. But the prominent presence of both wagons for what seems like a good amount of the day makes me hmm.
idk I mean, I vibe with the idea of the not w/w read Nacho made on Axel/KCC, which is in his favor too. But also, I don't really feel like solving for aligns/antialigns before a flip just because days are so long
Grapefruit, could you reword this second sentence? I'm having trouble parsing it.
Writing out how I feel about this mostly for my own benefit - I trust Nacho more than I trust Kitty in general, Kitty's claimed role is honestly pretty powerful as a wolf, but I also have trouble wrapping my head around why Nacho would choose to do this if he is a wolf and she is a villager. Like, KCC has been losing a little bit of traction recently, but I feel like she is definitely mislynchable without going this far - he could've just chosen to hammer home his cases, push KCC's claim as wolf-indicative, etc. and just pretend to eat crow next phase. But with what he's done, after she flips, he's just dying within the next cycle. And he'd be one of the most engaged wolves in any team, why not have anyone else on the team CC her.
Them being w/w would require one of his most prominent pushes to have been a buddy... of course, if he's going for the hard bus with this, here, that's not out of the question (just in the abstract, without looking at how they've interacted.) But this scenario isn't something I'd really consider unless and until he's alive late.
And if Nacho's a villager, he's saying KCC's really likely to be a wolf based on his role.
No hammer please, after I leave tonight I don't think I can be back until a couple hours before EOD.
Maybe a bit cautionless but I trust Nacho more than Kitty even though I didn't really wanna lynch Kitty.
Vote KittyCupCake
Nacho, how sure are you on this? Like, no doubt, absolutely zero chance you're both town? Because that tips a good chunk of my worldview on its head.
Not sure what this means, could you elaborate on this?
Happy early birthday to your daughter!
He feels a bit like he's struggling to get a grip on the thread and has posted a good amount about how he doesn't have a ton of time and needs more hard info and stuff to work with. I think this is probably NAI unless he's known for being demotivated as one alignment?
I don't remember who townread him off "Silver fanning the flames on Mindreaver = sneaky no trust" or maybe I'm just making that up? But he also had Mindreaver as scummy so I'm not sure how that fits together. Like, he said that Silver was suspicious for avoiding responsibility for lynching Mindreaver by saying "we should get this over with" with the "we", but if he thinks Mind is scummy, I don't understand why avoiding responsibility for the lynch is a bad thing - it's only a bad thing after Mindreaver flips town.
Also noting the fact that he had dk in his town tier with little elaboration but hasn't really looked at the current dk wagon or tried to convince people on him. I can definitely understand if he's had time issues and hasn't been able to focus on that in the thread.
--
Axel, could you talk a bit more about why you saw dk as "fine" and gave him a townread in #948? Does that still apply, do you have any opinion of the cases against him if you've looked at them?
I mean, maybe it's WIFOMy to read as much into the soft/claim stuff as I've been wanting to. There's nothing super impressive about her posting. I guess the posts where she talked about how she felt on people moving off me and pushing her demonstrated a decent amount of facility speaking about a world that isn't true, but that's not that difficult.
vezok, would really like to know more about your reasons for wolfreading KCC. Is it mostly meta / her not being like how she's been when you've played with town her? I guess I should take a look at her past games.
dk, do you have any thoughts on the claim / her elaboration beyond this?
fulcrum, I understand what you're saying about this inconsistency in grape's read on you. Do you think what you've pointed out from him is mafia indicative more than other suspects? Like if he's w and you're v I understand why he'd want to represent that type of read, to keep from clearing you and to discredit you, but I don't really see how his progression on you is unrealistic or impossible for if you're v/v (like, sentiment of "this person has a scary wolfgame, but she's probably a townlean if I disregard that, but I'm not gonna clear her"). I know you said you wanted to wagon there, I guess I'm asking you if you could elaborate on where this observation leads you.
Grape, sorry, your most recent post confuses me. Do you wanna wagon DK or tom more?
Okay. I can get just not seeing the cases, but do you have any thoughts on KCC and dk's posts yourself?
We still have time before EOD. Where would you want to go if you could unilaterally decide like 2-3 wagons to be in contention?
Forgive me if you’ve answered these recently, I can’t iso right now - where are you at on me? And I remember you said you felt a little adrift and wanted a suspect, that might have been longer ago than it’d seem to me but have any of the cases presented since then swayed you strongly?