Chandler and I love you and your baby too, Bessie!
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Feb 15, 2021Slothful posted a message on Realm of the Elderlings Mafia: Game Over Mafia WinPosted in: Mafia
Jun 12, 2020Slothful posted a message on Voldemort's Throne Room Mafia Signups | 20/20 PlayersWho is this xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx and how can I hope to achieve the level of cool they have?Posted in: Old Sign-ups
Feb 25, 2020Slothful posted a message on Prison Block Mafia II, Game Over: Pardoned! (Town Win)Posted in: Mafia
Nov 10, 2019/inPosted in: Old Sign-ups
I'm actually trying to move away from walls now so hmmm...
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Feb 14, 2021bessie posted a message on Realm of the Elderlings Mafia: Game Over Mafia WinI am sorry for taking so long to post this, I had intended to read the all the game posts I missed, and the chats, so that I could give some constructive feedback, but a week later and I still haven’t had a chance, and I didn’t want to delay any longer.Posted in: Mafia
Thank you Grapefruit for running the game. The flavor and roles were awesome! I think the balance was ok, it seams scum-sided in retrospect, but if town had lynched mafia early, and mafia had targeted players with too much vitality to kill, perhaps the game would have appeared town sided. I do think that you overestimated the value of neighbor chat for town, more so because wasn’t skill chats one way only? I only had skill with Bur who could have a two way chat. I think the chat mechanics and cost were fine, just that they weren’t of much real value to town. On my home site we had third-party roles in most of our games, so I generally like them.
Thanks to everyone for making me feel welcome on this site, especially Osie for inviting me and Silvercrys who was the first to welcome me, and to my awesome scum partners. My dog sends a special shout out to Sloth and Chandler, his new buddies.. I like this community and would like to play again with you.
Feb 5, 2021Azrael posted a message on Realm of the Elderlings Mafia: Game Over Mafia WinChats are useful if there are mechanics conversations you want to have away from the rest of the thread, but there's always the problem that you don't know how much to safely share with the other person and who to trust. Most behavior info should go to the thread, and that's most of the communication in any given game.Posted in: Mafia
There were some interesting tricks you could pull, but to make them really central to the gameplay, there need to be abilities that encourage use of that design space, despite the risks.
I did enjoy them here, and the setup was fine. The town lost this based on our play, decisively.
Feb 4, 2021Grapefruit21 posted a message on Realm of the Elderlings Mafia: Game Over Mafia WinSo on the actual game. I actually think most people played okay. There just was so little coordination or teamwork. We kept remarking in the dead chat how collectively the town basically had the right PoE but there was no agreement and the fall back options were always town. Despite having strong town reads throughout the game (Tammy, KJ, Bur) there just never was a town block that was working together and that more than anything I think sunk the town.Posted in: Mafia
I think the entire scum team played pretty well. Boom came into a slot that looked doomed and took it to the end game. Plus really helped revitalize the energy. Bessie was a massive moral boost in the scum chat and her wonderful walls garnered town reads for a long time. Tubba was just a survivor and fought through everything and managed to surive till day 5 despite looking like he was dead to rights on day 2. But I have to give Sloth my scum team MVP award. He dragged the team along through the pre replacement disaster when it looked like town could sweep the game and once he had reinforcements kept the effort and energy up and made it the end game with Boom. They all deserve a lot of credit and it was a really fun team to watch after we got through the replacements.
Wisp also deserves some credit. He won as a third party despite out himself early which isn't an easy thing to do. And he did all of this despite hating third parties in general. I said some unkind things in the early dead chat because I loved my mental image of the role too much and considering his putting to be almost playing against his win con but it wasn't, he won, and managed to never be under much serious pressure.
On the town side there were some crazy swings. The first was Iso bonding to Az as soon as the day start. Tying your vitality battery to the other high vitality role was just bad. Another major one was Wisp draining Cuth and delaying the Vig shot. The craziest swing though was obviously Night 4. So setting the scene there were 10 alive (6s4w) and Cuth had a vig shot he was itching to use. Scum could win that night if Cuth missed his vig shot (or it didn't kill Sloth). They decided to go for the fancy play and to try and win on the spot rather than blocking Cuth with the RB and going into a 9 person Condemn or Lose. And for a second I thought it paid off because Bessie had been doc'd by Tammy to protect her from Cuth's shot, but I'd forgotten the scum team blocked Tammy on top of shooting her.
Anyway I thought the game was a very enjoyable read with several swings in momentum. I hope you all enjoyed it! Thank you so much for playing and thanks again to Osie and DV for helping me get the game ready!
Feb 4, 2021Grapefruit21 posted a message on Realm of the Elderlings Mafia: Game Over Mafia WinPosted in: Mafia
The game was scum sided. This was due to the design team over valuing how town sided the chats would be and not properly calibrating the vitality.
So on this. I think there are multiple things people will point to. First he town roles being effectively 1 shot for the most part, second the scum pooling vitality, third the lack of information, and forth the extra killing power.
In reverse the extra killing power was overdone. The poison should not have been in the game. Just a massive mistake by me. I think Regal's (Sloth's) steal was fine but he should have started with less vitality not that it really mattered. Both together was way too much and the confusion around the extra vitality loss that killed GJ just destroyed the town.
On the lack of information this feeds back into our misread of the chats. We felt that they'd be more townsided. Which I think to some extent they almost were. Bur garnered many town reads through his chats for example. Where we got the levers wrong was with undershooting on the Wit (1 message per phase and that short of a word limit was so weak) and not learning my lesson from secret agents that people will hoard their resources if you don't give them a motivation to spend them. The other thing was that Ketricken (CC) was the flagship information role for town and it didn't go according to plan. Bee had been various iterations of investigative but got nerfed into the ground when we were trying to weaken the town, some of the iterations would have been too powerful but I went to far in knocking her down.
I actually think the scum pooling Vit was fine. Their abilities were barely vitality gated and the sharing was mostly a way to give them a large pool to use the Skill if they wanted to but keep their overall vitality low so Jinna and Chade could kill them.
Lastly in role madness games like this you either have to give scum completely absurd roles or really limit the town. It's hard to give town satisfying powerful roles in role madness while keeping the game balanced. I did not hit the right levels here and basically designed a scum team that wouldn't have been insane (minus the poison which was bad) in a game with fewer PR's and made multiple weak town roles. A theme of the design was that we wanted to reward coordination and skilled play and have less automatic power. Chade (Cuth) I think is my favorite design of the game. The ability to gain extra shots by predicting who would be condemned seemed to be both fun and a satisfying reward. It also changed behavior slightly but not so much as to skew the game. Similarly I was please with the design of Burrich (Anak). I think it was used sub-optimally but tension between wanting to bond to start Wit chats and the need to wait and pick a good target I think was a really interesting design. On the opposite end Hest (Cantrip) didn't really work or make sense and was just a mess of a role. The idea was to confirm someone was telling the truth and give them a bonus but that's just not the way trackers are generally used and 1V is so anemic as to be pointless. The design was for most of the PR's to be one shot if nothing went right for town but give them outs through good play to gain extra uses.
The lower individual power level and attempted focus on coordination just seems like it was less enjoyable for most players. I can disagree on assessments of some roles (I think Verity is strong than HR did) but overall GJ is right that his role was basically a worse VT. And that feels awful as a player. My biggest takeaway from this design is to put more weight on the individual player experience and worry a tiny bit less about overall balance because things are swingy and hard to predict.
So what would I definitely have changed?
1. Eliminate the poison.
2. Reword Jinna so the fact that the players bonded to are valid targets as well is obvious.
3. Return Bee to a shot limited investigative of some kind.
4. The Fool would gain start with 2 or 3V.
5. Tweak the Skill so that there was more of an incentive to send messages.
6. Buff the wit a little.
7. Give the scum team another vitality sink.
8. Verity. See below.
Jinna (Wisp) was intended to be a chaos agent accelerating the game. His role was supposed to have a good chance to win (close to 50% to match town/scum in a balanced world) and act as a rubberband agent between the two factions. His claiming immediately made it not that, but I was overall very happy with the role and it's place in the game. Except it was maybe a little too easy to win and lead to speculation based on Wit distribution.
And the fiasco that was the wording of having the Wit and being witted. It was overly confusing and helped lead to Wisp thinking it was nigh impossible for him to win.
I mostly stand by this design. I know not all players like 3rd party roles but I think they are worthwhile over all and despite it not playing out the way I imagined at all I think it added an interesting tension to the game. I do wish it hadn't derailed the game the way it had and focused the conversation for so many days but I'm still happy with it.
Verity (Highroller) needed another pass. It was the second most iterated role and changed drastically several times. I actually really like the underlying design but it was too punishing to use. I fell in love with the flavor aspect and overrode concerns about the posting restriction (which was initially much harsher). I was too attached to flavor and not worried enough about the play experience here.
This role was divisive all throughout the design. I absolutely loved the flavor of the quest, transform, slumber mechanic and I do think that some players (myself included) would enjoy the altered posting restriction and the ever growing chat network. But it wasn't for everyone and a social game like this needs to be designed with the median player in mind. The balance wasn't there at all for this role as it was designed on top of the problems of enjoyment for the median player.
I think it's okay to put 1 role into a game that's going to be of niche interest but two is too much and between Jinna and Verity there were two here.
Spoilers for the novel and how it ties to the role below.Verity in the books is the King in waiting to a kingdom on the brink, they are suffering raids from a viking like force that is somehow turning their victims into empathy lacking shells of people that will kill their own children for the clothes they are wearing, his father is infirm, his brother is a spoiled brat unconcerned with the raiders, and half of the kingdom prefers his brother to him. Verity is stretching himself thin using the Skill to impart false vision into the captians of the raiding ships so they run aground and crash their vessels. But it's taking a toll on him physically and isn't sustainable. So Verity departs with a some of his best men for the Mountain Kingdom to seek out the mystical Elderlings and ask them for help. What he finds is a garden of dragon statues and a quarry of magical rock that seems react to the Skill, absorb memories, but also replay whoever put their memories them when you touch it. So he pours his own life and memory into the rock making a dragon of his own eventually pouring his entire life into it, awakening his stone dragon temporarily and driving back the raiders completely.
So with that in mind I fell in love the idea of a quest (losing vitality) losing your memories and going to sleep unless awakened (the slumber), and losing your mind to the Skill (the expanding chats). What I couldn't nail down was the pay off.
So the pay off for transforming needed to be more impactful if all of those restrictions were going to be in place. And we cycled through a bunch of different ones. Osie posted a couple in the discord that were wisely abandoned (though one went on to become Tintaglia's Awakening). I also cycled through a public cop check, a vig, and a desperado. None of them really fit in with the rest of the game but the strongman enabler wasn't a good fit (really that should have been Fitz! Kicking myself over the missed opportunity there despite liking his role too). DV and Osie were great here shooting down some truly horrendous designs and really pressing me to make sure this was what I wanted. And it was but it wasn't fun for HR and I'm sorry about that.
Also he was a giant stone dragon! Definitely should have changed the transform to be hard to kill after the fact even though well the spoilers.
Feb 4, 2021Rhand posted a message on Realm of the Elderlings Mafia: Game Over Mafia WinAt least the sexiest player wonPosted in: Mafia
Feb 2, 2021I would add to the cons of MC the fact that they themselves might have to move, and therefore going there could result in us having to move a 2nd time. The smaller playerbase con would also be that we would still be struggling to fill games most likely.Posted in: Mafia
Feb 1, 2021My understanding of the state of a Mafia Universe integration is as follows:Posted in: Mafia
They will set up a new subforum called "long phase games" where one cycle is 5/2 minimum
The queue for that subforum will be managed by one of us, and games we currently have queued will be placed into the queue in whatever order we wish and will run first
We may be permitted to place someone from the Mafia Council on the MU moderation team
The "council" as such will be dissolved/have no official power as far as that subforum is concerned; the queue manager position will be subordinate to the regular MU hierarchy just like the others are
This was almost three years ago now and I haven't spoken directly to anyone in the MU administration team about it recently though
Separately, there is a Partner Communities subforum where we can run things basically however we want and keep the council, etc. if we want to do that unrelated to the Long Phase subforum.
The big problem with that is games there aren't advertised and sign ups spread only by word of mouth, but it would also allow us to keep things basically as they are with a smaller community, etc.
Feb 1, 2021Also, I think a necessary step before we leave would be to identify any and all past veterans who may drop back in, and send them all PMs so they know how to find us. That way, even if the sub is eventually closed and archived after our material is ported, we have continuity.Posted in: Mafia
Jan 31, 2021Posted in: MafiaQuote from Slothful »I don't get the eaten up argument, honestly. Specially if we get like a small subsection (which was my understanding?).
But I've played at MC, and loud eye-hurty themes aside, it's pretty neat.
My concern with MC (and maybe someone else can talk here) is that I worry we'll end up having this same discussion there in a few months. Aren't they having the same issues filling up games/getting people?
Sort-of. In a sense. It's not quite the same, and I have offers and requests for games there still quite often. We can also likely do some recruiting that was harder to do before if we have long phase games.
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