to make room for 2 KotWO i took out the singleton forge-tender and one glorious anthem (now its 3x). no complaints so far. in fact, i love that card, especially cuz the land comes into play untapped. that way i do it turn three and get plains, put in another land, then play another cenn or meadowgrain. awesome card advantage.
You meta musnt have too much red in it if youre willing to remove it MD. I love having the singleton since its something red decks likely wouldnt expect to see game 1. Ranger of Eos can fetch it for you if need be or get another figure if youre not facing red. If you draw it at worst its a one drop that gets pumped by your cenns and anthems. Its just an easy way to secure a game 1 win sometimes if youre facing a potent red deck.
I just think that 1 of MD is too good to not run it. It has no drawbacks.
I've run into lots of different types of decks which warrant the use of PtE. Its useful everywhere, knocking out a pumped figure that is bound to cause trouble, hitting a scion or a mistbind that would ultimately be the death of you, or those random decks like one that had doomgape come in and pound you for 10...its the only way you have to deal with threats except for unmake but its 1cc so its 3 times easier to use. A must!
often times, you either play something or keep your mana untapped for an unmake. But now you can do both! At the cost of giving the guy a basic land. Thats why i think it would synch well with Knight of the White Orchid but i just cant seem to find anything to take out to fit him in. Its frustrating, he's card advantage and mana fixer all in one not to mention a sturdy blocker.
Path to Exile definetly owns. Im currently trying to think of how my deck should look. I would need 4 of them (i have 3) and would run 2 Unmakes. Im thinking Knight of the White Orchid would fit well in the deck considering the ''drawbacks'' of using PtE. Plus thinning your deck and adding a land as well as a 2/2 first striker for 2 seems pretty great.
I need to remove 4 cards to make room for PtE, 2 of them would be unmake but im not sure what else. The decklist seems pretty solid so far. I'd wanna keep the forge-tender main since she's proven more than useful and therefor that means i have to keep RoE as a 2 of. Maybe cut 1 glorious and 1 other random thing?
1. Teeg is Excellent on t2/t3, but doesn't really do a lot after the opponent plays their wrath and wipes the board. The other counterspells in control (remove soul, bant charm and negate) are still useable and Jund Charm/Volcanic Fallout is still useable too. He will usually not be an answer to your problems later on in the game, where something like Spectral Procession might be.
Gaddock will prevent a *** but not cards like pyroclasm. They'll have to spot remove him with something if they hope to wrath the board or cryptic command you. Gaddock ends up being a diversion and ends up taking the heat instead of your other guys. Though i guess you still end up getting wrathed but later than you originally would. Though i've never played 5cc, it seems like one of those really hard matchups that kithkin should struggle against.
2. Which means you probably shouldn't play Spectral Procession AND Teeg. Procession is one of your better cards and one of the reasons Kithkin has been able to take off and compete effectively (also the rotation of Damnation Sulfur Elemental helped though)
Teeg won't allow you to play spectral if he's in play so those cards really don't work well together. Considering procession is so godly, evasion in a kithkin deck?! omg ownage...i'd wanna keep my spectrals active and not have them negated by a card in my deck. Glorious + spectral + ajani is pretty fierce especially if your opponent can't clear your flyers. Its been a game breaker in so many games.
Teeg also negates garruk and ajani which are 2 cards the W/G version would run. As good as teeg is, he would drastically alter the mechanics of the deck because you have to sort of build around him.
1. Play 3 Mutavaults (if you have them) and NO Unmakes. Spectral can still be played off colourless mana and FoD's 4/4ness doesn't always HAVE to come online t3 - in fact a lot of control players like watching you do that and then remove him anyway - either in response or before he hits and laugh at you wasting a turn.
I like the idea of mutavaults i just fear the possibility of having a knight of meadowgrain in hand with a vault and a plains in play on turn 2. Or a starting hand with windbrisk and vault. I'd run it as a 2 of since running more would affect the consistency of my earlier turns.
Whats cool about vault is ajani counters stay on it, its a kithkin, it gets a boost from anthem, and its a body post wrath. I'd need to find a way to stick it in without too many drawbacks.
I enjoy the consistency of mono white, though it limits you in a way, its still pretty powerful. Its impossible to get color screwed because every land you get is what you need. I dont like the direction shards and conflux are taking the metagame. White weenie and aggro decks as we know it are threatened. Even mono color is bordering the impossible. That's why i love this deck.
my logic is iffy but if we run 3 PtE and 2 unmake we could bluff lots with the PtE and only run one more removal spell than we did before. so think about
-1 unmake
+2 PtE
I like the idea of still running unmake. In some situations, you can afford to play an unmake and dont want it to be Spellstuttered. Although running less of them could mean adding mutavaults in the mix which isnt a bad idea. I have not been running them so i can hit that turn 3 spectral or unmake or whatever that requires all white. I dont want to get stuck with a colorless manland. A couple unmake and PtE would be a good balance.
You dont like running ajani? I kind of like him, although i dont have any elspeth i do like the lifegain option on him, its been useful for me in tight games with board sweeps. His vigilance skill also hurts since your opponent will face pumped blockers. In aggro matchups, its been awesome so far.
i tested my path to exiles for about 2 hours ant they worked amazingly. once my opponent saw i had them he was terrified to play anything. bluffing with one mana open is so easy and viable. evn if you dont have a playset if you get one PtE they know you have them and won't play anything big. just never tap out and you're safe. i also tested lapse of ceratinty but it wasn't ver good because it only stalls the ***. i did play one game that it stalled the wrath for a turn and saved me the game but i don't think it will end up worth it.
Now the question is, what do we take out to put some of them in the deck? I figure its an arguable MD addition. Does it replace unmake? Seems like they do the same thing but for less, although they do give tempo to your opponenent.
That one mana open situation is scary for your opponenent, gotta love that, we dont have to leave 3 open and not play anything on our turn. At worst we can even use the card on ourselves for a tempo boost.
In some situations, i would love having PTE but sometimes unmake is worth it since you dont need to fear it being countered. Thats why im hesitant to replace unmake with PtE.
Well, it would depend on which matchups Oversoul of Dusk would be able to give us a good edge compared to what Reveillark does for us.
In a way, lark can be kind of slow since you either evoke it or play it. When playing it, its a 4/3 flying beater, anything else but faeries should be able to block it. In all other matchups, lark is gonna get pumpage from either glorious or ajani. So really, if your opponent doesnt target it its effect wont happen but you get 4 dmg each turn with it. Although, i would say both of those cards wont resolve against faeries and thus against 5cc either. Im having a hard time against faeries although i dont have any elsepth or stillmoons so maybe that cuts it close.
Where would oversoul come in? I can see its potential but if im not mistaken, isnt it a card that gives us a better matchup against stuff we already have a fairly easy time with? I dunno how you get oversoul to resolve against 5cc, frankly they'll use removal on your boosters like cenn and they'll avoid counterting your anthems since they'll use spot removal on your creatures or clear the board. So once you try to get in something big like cloudgoat or oversoul it'll get countered. Unless theres something im missing, i dont see how oversoul helps here.
Yeah, I definitely hear ya on that. The Borderguard is one of those guys that just seems a lil bit more lame each time I try him. I stupidly had him MD for awhile and he was almost always a pretty lame for his cost. I do like that he kinda sorta allows you to overextend a bit, but bleh half the time he was coming out as a 2/2 anyway.
And indeed the *** just seems like the best answer to any other aggro deck.
Again though, what were people's thought on Mirrorweave? Is it just a win more thing? Sometimes I've played it, and it was indeed a win more scenario, other times it was the perfect combat trick that turned my 3 unblocked spirit tokens into 7/7 Wilt Leaf Lieges. What did you all think about it?
Also, why Ajani over Elspeth? I can't help but think that Elspeth could be even hotter turning Meadowgrains into 5/5 flying lifelinkers, or churning out 1/1 soldiers that could possibly be even bigger with Anthem and Liege if you're running a liege.
Mirrorweave is a cool card. It can do a lot of tricks like winning you the game when your opponent doesn't see it coming. Still, it just doesn't seem like it fits in an optimal build. There's always something better to fit in than a couple mirrorweaves. I can see it being run at casual-esque fnm. Although i've always been one to believe its a win more card. Maybe it can help me win games i should win but lose due to play errors
I'll prolly try them sometime just for the hell of it.
I do occasionally find the Mutavaults getting in the way of Meadowgrains and Processions.
Definitely another good point about Forge Tender, I always forget that. I'll definitely find room for 1 of him.
I admit the SB is a bit thrown together as I stupidly usually don't put all that much thought into the SB. I might end up cutting the Borderguards as even against Wrath effects, they usually only end up dropping 1-2 guys.
I'm kinda sold on the SB Wraths though. I kept finding that in the mirror, the opponents SB Wraths were exactly what would lose me the game. It's just that perfect out against other aggro decks if they get a bit too far ahead. What didn't you like about Wrath?
Either way, much thanks for the input.
I like the idea of *** in the sideboard. It gives you a chance to wipe the board clean if your opponent gets ahead which can happen. Its not always easy to stabilize and *** seems like a good option, 2-3 in SB maybe
Borderguard is a kind of post Wrath of God card. It gives you a couple kithkin tokens after a board sweep which is annoying. Though *** would warrant more of a place in the SB than the borderguard would. Unless theres some scenario im not seeing. Its just that if the board gets sweeped, i dont think it will spam many tokens, enough to really make its addition relevant.
*** is relevant in the mirror but against other aggro decks as well. So it can be fairly useful. I recall a few situations where id have wanted one...
First, what's good to side in against faeries and for what purpose?
Second, is stillmoon cavalier a must in my kithkin deck? Where does it come in handy? What matchups?
This is my current decklist. Its done pretty well so far, haven't really had a chance to playtest much. The sideboard is a good start but its lacking tech. Those 4 ofs just seemed like they wanna meet the 15 card requirement.
Comments/critiques on my decklist would be appreciated.
Not too many merfolk players here, not to many players in general. I've only really seen a real merfolk mirror at regionals, which i totally didnt expect to face. First game was against mono U merfolk that ended up top8. Then every game after that, i didnt play against merfolk but i was beside people that played it. It was surprising.
Ended up 31st.
Didnt really consider much against the mirror since i figured it would be determined by skills and id prolly lose
I didn't realize that MotM was this harmful to the deck. What can I do about him? Despite knowing that it is a bad matchup, I feel pretty confident against RDW after boarding Burrenton Forge-Tenders. I was also so surprised that Sower of Temptation was the MVP this day. The card has never helped me in any other matches at any other time competitively (seriously, I'm not exaggerating). It has always been removed or countered. Also I should mention that this RDW player didn't play any Pyroclasm, Firespout, or Sulfurous Blast which was odd to me. Overall I was 5-1 and 11-5.
Consign to dream has been put forward as a means to remove threats like magus, gaddock, colossus etc...
It seems like a good option to deal with threats you couldnt counter as well as gain tempo by forcing the guy to redraw what he already had.
Ive used it in my SB but ive never gotten to use it much. That was the card i wanted to use against RDW and magus but no one really plays those anymore here.
As for the 'lark, I often end up picking up a lord and an adept for just a little bit more card advantage. I rarely evoke it, as it's often better as just a threat in its own right, but obviously that decision hangs on the board position at the time. There's also always the (albeit unlikely) opportunity to crypcom bouncing your 'lark at the same time as countering a spell. I've still only done this twice in competitive games but both occasions resulted in my opponent scooping.
I had lark in my side at nationals and using cryptic to bounce lark was game breaking. The best was when i tried countering a scion and bouncing the lark...the guy had to throw out a slaughter pact on the lark. One less annoying creature removal and my real goal was really to bring back the lark. So in the end, i came out on top of that exchange. Also won the match and the game.
Now im running lark in main. I took out the Snags in favour of lark and sower. I really like the dynamic of lark maindeck. You can afford to chump block at critical times because you know you can recoup what you've lost, giving your opponent a false sense of security.
Cryptic Command is MVP and is hardly replaceable at the competitive lvl. You could run runesnag or remove soul in its place.
When LORD of atlantis rotates, so does this deck.
Unless alara gives us a adequate replacement for a UU merfolk that makes your fish unblockable...
Eventide didnt give us anything palpable...
You meta musnt have too much red in it if youre willing to remove it MD. I love having the singleton since its something red decks likely wouldnt expect to see game 1. Ranger of Eos can fetch it for you if need be or get another figure if youre not facing red. If you draw it at worst its a one drop that gets pumped by your cenns and anthems. Its just an easy way to secure a game 1 win sometimes if youre facing a potent red deck.
I just think that 1 of MD is too good to not run it. It has no drawbacks.
often times, you either play something or keep your mana untapped for an unmake. But now you can do both! At the cost of giving the guy a basic land. Thats why i think it would synch well with Knight of the White Orchid but i just cant seem to find anything to take out to fit him in. Its frustrating, he's card advantage and mana fixer all in one not to mention a sturdy blocker.
Theres just no room for it in my build.
4 Windbrisk Heights
16 Plains
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Wizened Cenn
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Cloudgoat Ranger
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Spectral Procession
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Glorious Anthem
4 Mark of Asylum
3 Moonglove Exract
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Wispmare
2 Martial Coup
I need to remove 4 cards to make room for PtE, 2 of them would be unmake but im not sure what else. The decklist seems pretty solid so far. I'd wanna keep the forge-tender main since she's proven more than useful and therefor that means i have to keep RoE as a 2 of. Maybe cut 1 glorious and 1 other random thing?
Gaddock will prevent a *** but not cards like pyroclasm. They'll have to spot remove him with something if they hope to wrath the board or cryptic command you. Gaddock ends up being a diversion and ends up taking the heat instead of your other guys. Though i guess you still end up getting wrathed but later than you originally would. Though i've never played 5cc, it seems like one of those really hard matchups that kithkin should struggle against.
Teeg won't allow you to play spectral if he's in play so those cards really don't work well together. Considering procession is so godly, evasion in a kithkin deck?! omg ownage...i'd wanna keep my spectrals active and not have them negated by a card in my deck. Glorious + spectral + ajani is pretty fierce especially if your opponent can't clear your flyers. Its been a game breaker in so many games.
Teeg also negates garruk and ajani which are 2 cards the W/G version would run. As good as teeg is, he would drastically alter the mechanics of the deck because you have to sort of build around him.
I like the idea of mutavaults i just fear the possibility of having a knight of meadowgrain in hand with a vault and a plains in play on turn 2. Or a starting hand with windbrisk and vault. I'd run it as a 2 of since running more would affect the consistency of my earlier turns.
Whats cool about vault is ajani counters stay on it, its a kithkin, it gets a boost from anthem, and its a body post wrath. I'd need to find a way to stick it in without too many drawbacks.
I enjoy the consistency of mono white, though it limits you in a way, its still pretty powerful. Its impossible to get color screwed because every land you get is what you need. I dont like the direction shards and conflux are taking the metagame. White weenie and aggro decks as we know it are threatened. Even mono color is bordering the impossible. That's why i love this deck.
Actually, green has a good card pool, Garruk might be useful to kithkin overrun and you would even be able to use gaddock and scattershot archer.
Though consistancy of mono white is always good too
I like the idea of still running unmake. In some situations, you can afford to play an unmake and dont want it to be Spellstuttered. Although running less of them could mean adding mutavaults in the mix which isnt a bad idea. I have not been running them so i can hit that turn 3 spectral or unmake or whatever that requires all white. I dont want to get stuck with a colorless manland. A couple unmake and PtE would be a good balance.
You dont like running ajani? I kind of like him, although i dont have any elspeth i do like the lifegain option on him, its been useful for me in tight games with board sweeps. His vigilance skill also hurts since your opponent will face pumped blockers. In aggro matchups, its been awesome so far.
Now the question is, what do we take out to put some of them in the deck? I figure its an arguable MD addition. Does it replace unmake? Seems like they do the same thing but for less, although they do give tempo to your opponenent.
That one mana open situation is scary for your opponenent, gotta love that, we dont have to leave 3 open and not play anything on our turn. At worst we can even use the card on ourselves for a tempo boost.
In some situations, i would love having PTE but sometimes unmake is worth it since you dont need to fear it being countered. Thats why im hesitant to replace unmake with PtE.
In a way, lark can be kind of slow since you either evoke it or play it. When playing it, its a 4/3 flying beater, anything else but faeries should be able to block it. In all other matchups, lark is gonna get pumpage from either glorious or ajani. So really, if your opponent doesnt target it its effect wont happen but you get 4 dmg each turn with it. Although, i would say both of those cards wont resolve against faeries and thus against 5cc either. Im having a hard time against faeries although i dont have any elsepth or stillmoons so maybe that cuts it close.
Where would oversoul come in? I can see its potential but if im not mistaken, isnt it a card that gives us a better matchup against stuff we already have a fairly easy time with? I dunno how you get oversoul to resolve against 5cc, frankly they'll use removal on your boosters like cenn and they'll avoid counterting your anthems since they'll use spot removal on your creatures or clear the board. So once you try to get in something big like cloudgoat or oversoul it'll get countered. Unless theres something im missing, i dont see how oversoul helps here.
Mirrorweave is a cool card. It can do a lot of tricks like winning you the game when your opponent doesn't see it coming. Still, it just doesn't seem like it fits in an optimal build. There's always something better to fit in than a couple mirrorweaves. I can see it being run at casual-esque fnm. Although i've always been one to believe its a win more card. Maybe it can help me win games i should win but lose due to play errors
I'll prolly try them sometime just for the hell of it.
I like the idea of *** in the sideboard. It gives you a chance to wipe the board clean if your opponent gets ahead which can happen. Its not always easy to stabilize and *** seems like a good option, 2-3 in SB maybe
Borderguard is a kind of post Wrath of God card. It gives you a couple kithkin tokens after a board sweep which is annoying. Though *** would warrant more of a place in the SB than the borderguard would. Unless theres some scenario im not seeing. Its just that if the board gets sweeped, i dont think it will spam many tokens, enough to really make its addition relevant.
*** is relevant in the mirror but against other aggro decks as well. So it can be fairly useful. I recall a few situations where id have wanted one...
First, what's good to side in against faeries and for what purpose?
Second, is stillmoon cavalier a must in my kithkin deck? Where does it come in handy? What matchups?
4 knight of meadowgrain
4 wizened cenn
3 cloudgoat ranger
1 burrenton forge-tender
4 figure of destiny
2 ranger of eos
4 unmake
4 glorious anthem
2 ajani goldmane
4 windbrisk heights
4 rustic clachan
16 plains
1 ajani
3 burrenton forge-tender
3 reveillark
4 moonglove extract
4 wispmare
This is my current decklist. Its done pretty well so far, haven't really had a chance to playtest much. The sideboard is a good start but its lacking tech. Those 4 ofs just seemed like they wanna meet the 15 card requirement.
Comments/critiques on my decklist would be appreciated.
Ended up 31st.
Didnt really consider much against the mirror since i figured it would be determined by skills and id prolly lose
Consign to dream has been put forward as a means to remove threats like magus, gaddock, colossus etc...
It seems like a good option to deal with threats you couldnt counter as well as gain tempo by forcing the guy to redraw what he already had.
Ive used it in my SB but ive never gotten to use it much. That was the card i wanted to use against RDW and magus but no one really plays those anymore here.
I had lark in my side at nationals and using cryptic to bounce lark was game breaking. The best was when i tried countering a scion and bouncing the lark...the guy had to throw out a slaughter pact on the lark. One less annoying creature removal and my real goal was really to bring back the lark. So in the end, i came out on top of that exchange. Also won the match and the game.
Now im running lark in main. I took out the Snags in favour of lark and sower. I really like the dynamic of lark maindeck. You can afford to chump block at critical times because you know you can recoup what you've lost, giving your opponent a false sense of security.
Unless alara gives us a adequate replacement for a UU merfolk that makes your fish unblockable...
Eventide didnt give us anything palpable...
Foreseeing fish extinction?