Long time follower of the thread, I'm thinking of making a version of this deck to have fun with at FNM. I like the idea of getting to play a splash color instead of just red, and so far I'm leaning towards green. Having our own Tarmogoyf seems great when we run so many card types, and having access to actual good ramp (sorry Coldsteel Heart) in the form of Sakura-Tribe Elder / Courser of Kruphix sounds good. I'm also not a huge fan of Blood Moon, so I'd like to run other kinds of lands disruption like Molten Rain, and green has Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, which sounds good.
This list is still very much in flux, but I'd like to hear any feedback on things I should consider, or results other people have had splashing a color, especially green.
Just some idea I was throwing around in my head yesterday; figured I'd write it down here to see if anyone else had some good input. Main focus is on using Courser of Kruphix and variousscry/shuffle abilities to manipulate the top of your library. Deck is probably bad, but maybe not.
Huh, there is a thread for this! I've been running Esper Delver on MTGO for a couple weeks now and it seems great, about as strong as Grixis I would say. Path to Exile and Lingering Souls are both really strong right now. Plus you get to play a bunch of fastlands, which helps a lot against all the Lightning Bolt decks, especially when you're bouncing and replaying lands with Deprive.
Definitely recommend to anyone looking for a new take on Delver in Modern; here's my list at the moment:
I was toying with an enchantment deck a while ago, and ended up splashing black for better removal. Also Kruphix's Insight is good. Here's how my list was looking for reference; good luck.
Interesting to see the most recent Channel Fireball video (Top 8 Ramp Sorceries) jokingly hint at Summer Bloom being ban worthy. At this point, I can't tell if it is a running joke or not, but I've come to realize that banning Bloom (or any one card from the myriad or fast, linear decks) isn't the recipe for a healthier format. There are too many offenders of the turn-4 rule. What is needed is better roadblocks for linear strategies.
Of the cards currently banned, I think the best options are Sword of the Meek and Sensei's Divining Top. SotM provides a maindeck way to produce chump blockers / gain life in the early game and transitions into a nice win condition in the mid to late game. SDT gives control a way to combat all the aggro decks going wide earlier than Supreme Verdict. It's possible SDT is too powerful for Modern, but to be honest, I think the format has grown up a lot since it's inception, and would be able to handle SDT very well.
I was thinking, if WotC is okay with Lanturn Control being a deck, then that flies in the face of the reasoning used to ban Sensei's Divining Top. It would be one thing if Top (in conjunction with Counterbalance) was considered too strong, but I don't think that would be the case. Abrupt Decay is very popular in Modern, and with Affinity already being perennial public enemy number one, people are prepared for artifacts. I think that would prohibit Jace, the Mind Sculptor even further, but I think Jace is too powerful for Modern anyway.
Also, I've seen more and more high profile players complaining about Bloom Titan, and I really think it is at least 50% to receive a ban before the pro tour, at this point.
Finally getting around to picking up my own set of 'Goyfs, and I wanted to try and build a BG deck but I've found myself gravitating back towards tempo, so I think this is a happy medium. I did play Grixis Delver for a while, so I'm looking forward to giving this a try. Here is my current list, and any feedback is appreciated.
That's not really true though. The problem with Summer Bloom is that you must have the lands in your hand to make it work. Yes, it works with 1 land and an Amulet, but your argument was without Amulet. In order to get to 5 mana on Turn 2 (6 mana on turn 3) is to do the following:
Play Non-Bounce land turn 1
Play Non-Bounce Land Turn 2 - Cast Summer Bloom
Play bounce land (bounce a land)
Play bounce land (bounce the other land)
Play land
There are ways to do it n Turn 1 with Simian Spirit Guide, but just the above requires that your starting 8 cards (after drawing Turn 2) have 5 (somewhat) specific cards in it to work.
If Summer Bloom was such a problem, more decks would be playing it. It isn't a problem because while this deck can take advantage of it, the deck is built around that interaction.
It's true you need lands in hand or an Amulet, but that just proves my point at it being more versatile. For other fast mana spells, you need the whole combo in hand right then. For Summer Bloom you need to have a couple extra lands or an amulet, and you don't even need a win-con that turn. You can just generate an obscene amount of permanent mana.
And saying that bloom must not be a problem because other decks aren't playing it is another fallacy. How many decks played Birthing Pod? Blazing Shoal? Hypergenesis? Seething Song? As you can see, just because a card is only played by one deck, doesn't mean it isn't Too good in that deck.
I'm not saying bloom is for sure going to be banned, or even that I'm 100% convinced that it needs to be. However, it certainly seems to tick off a lot of boxes for me that would justify it being cut.
So after watching Sam Pardee's recent set on Amulet Bloom, I just can't help but think the deck needs to be toned down. I'm not sure what the current popular opinion is on what, if anything, needs to get the axe, but if I were to guess I'd go with Summer Bloom. It is just such a major offender, even without an Amulet of Vigor in play. And comparing it to other "fast mana" cards that are already banned doesn't really explain just how powerful it is to have access to 6++ land-based mana way before turn 4.
I would guess Summer Bloom gets banned this next cycle if it continues to be as popular as it is now.
His opponents were so bad in those matchups. You cannot bring it up. He had a Turn 2 win with 32 dmg with Titan but that happend 1 out of 40 matches and this is if not Summer Bloom gets Spell Snared.
If it does, you are so screwed...
*Looks at decks played in sig* Hmm... lol
His opponents might not have played perfectly, but neither did he. And I shouldn't even have to mention how big of a logically fallacy it is to say something is bad when it is countered.
The point is, if you compare Summer Bloom to other cards that are banned (Seething Song, Rite of Flame) it is very often stronger, because you don't even need the full combo before you can use it. You can just dump 5 or 6 mana on the board turn 2, and now you are Way ahead of you opponent and can usually leverage that advantage into a win over the following turn(s).
So after watching Sam Pardee's recent set on Amulet Bloom, I just can't help but think the deck needs to be toned down. I'm not sure what the current popular opinion is on what, if anything, needs to get the axe, but if I were to guess I'd go with Summer Bloom. It is just such a major offender, even without an Amulet of Vigor in play. And comparing it to other "fast mana" cards that are already banned doesn't really explain just how powerful it is to have access to 6++ land-based mana way before turn 4.
I would guess Summer Bloom gets banned this next cycle if it continues to be as popular as it is now.
I am not sure why you are taking such a condescending tone when you are stating what he clearly already said. He said the version without snapcaster and delve guys may belong in a different thread because the deck being discussed here is more midrange. Then you accuse him of not knowing the deck because the version with snapcaster and delve fatties is more midrange...
Also, it does not seem that unreasonable to give it a different thread considering there are three twin threads in tier 1 and multiple UW control threads depending on titan or traditional control.
I think you missread what was written, either by him or me. He said that Snapcaster + delve creatures is more midrange, and that Dark Confidant is more tempo. I think this is wrong.
Also, the reason there are multiple Twin threads is because there are multiple color and card combinations putting up actual results. There is no reason to make another thread for some theoretical Dark Confidant + Disrupting Shoal fuelled "tempo" deck in any other place than Deck Creation in order to get that conversation out of the competitive discussion until it has put up results to prove it belongs here.
... It also seems like you don't understand Grixis Delver, as the version with Snapcasters and delve fatties is much closer to midrange than the Confidant build, which is more of a tempo deck.
Having Snapcaster Mage and delve creatures is not indicative of a midrange deck. Quite the opposite in fact. Tempo wants to play things at instant speed and cast undercosted fatties, not 2/1s for two that grind out an advantage over multiple turns. The more I read your posts, the less I think you actually understand what it is you're saying.
In my never ending quest to find hidden jank and work it into otherwise fine decks, I present my latest finding: Mystic Speculation. I am unsatisfied with only 4 cards that have scry to help flip Delver. I've been looking at Condescend but that's pretty bad for us. Mystic Speculation has synergies with both Delver and YP, but it's probably pretty bad otherwise? What do you think?
I ran a single Mystic Speculation in my list a while back. It is good in top-deck wars, especially if you have a prowess creature or Young Pyromancer to benefit from the repeat casts. You do sometimes have to just bite the bullet though and cast it without buyback when you need to find something early, usually removal. Pretty much a fun-of.
So there's been some discussion lately about various creature suites to run, but I wanted to take a moment to discuss something a little more innocuous: sideboard removal. I can only speak for myself, but I usually run anywhere from two to four spot removal spells in my sideboard. Historically, that has included some number of Magma Spray, as they lined up well against most of the decks I was expecting to want more removal against, with the added benefit of killing Kitchen Finks dead. However, I'm not as often running up against Finks anymore, and was wondering what you guys thought of Fiery Impulse. It doesn't have the nice exile clause, but it does stop more things, Wild Nacatl and Treetop Village off the top of my head.
This list is still very much in flux, but I'd like to hear any feedback on things I should consider, or results other people have had splashing a color, especially green.
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Phyrexian Ironfoot
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
2
2 Crystal Ball
17
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
2 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 Skred
3 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Highland Weald
2 Stomping Ground
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Pithing Needle
2 Retreat to Kazandu
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rending Volley
2 ?
Just some idea I was throwing around in my head yesterday; figured I'd write it down here to see if anyone else had some good input. Main focus is on using Courser of Kruphix and various scry/shuffle abilities to manipulate the top of your library. Deck is probably bad, but maybe not.
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Hangarback Walker
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Tarmogoyf
6
2 Crystal Ball
4 Utopia Sprawl
17
4 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Edge of Autumn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Stomping Ground
3 Temple of Abandon
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle
2 Retreat to Kazandu
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Dismember
3 Rending Volley
2 ?
Definitely recommend to anyone looking for a new take on Delver in Modern; here's my list at the moment:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Seeker of the Way
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
29
4 Deprive
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
1 Island
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Watery Grave
1 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dismember
2 Dispel
2 Hallow
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Sunlance
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Doomwake Giant
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
16
2 Dead Weight
4 Genju of the Cedars
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Ramp/Flex-spot
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Kruphix's Insight
24
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stirring Wildwood
3 Temple Garden
2 Temple of Malady
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Bastion
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
Of the cards currently banned, I think the best options are Sword of the Meek and Sensei's Divining Top. SotM provides a maindeck way to produce chump blockers / gain life in the early game and transitions into a nice win condition in the mid to late game. SDT gives control a way to combat all the aggro decks going wide earlier than Supreme Verdict. It's possible SDT is too powerful for Modern, but to be honest, I think the format has grown up a lot since it's inception, and would be able to handle SDT very well.
Also, I've seen more and more high profile players complaining about Bloom Titan, and I really think it is at least 50% to receive a ban before the pro tour, at this point.
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
28
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deprive
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Murderous Cut
4 Serum Visions
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Sultai Charm
4 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
1 Island
2 Breeding Pool
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Flooded Strand
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Darkblast
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dismember
2 Dispel
4 Feed the Clan
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Marsh Casualties
It's true you need lands in hand or an Amulet, but that just proves my point at it being more versatile. For other fast mana spells, you need the whole combo in hand right then. For Summer Bloom you need to have a couple extra lands or an amulet, and you don't even need a win-con that turn. You can just generate an obscene amount of permanent mana.
And saying that bloom must not be a problem because other decks aren't playing it is another fallacy. How many decks played Birthing Pod? Blazing Shoal? Hypergenesis? Seething Song? As you can see, just because a card is only played by one deck, doesn't mean it isn't Too good in that deck.
I'm not saying bloom is for sure going to be banned, or even that I'm 100% convinced that it needs to be. However, it certainly seems to tick off a lot of boxes for me that would justify it being cut.
*Looks at decks played in sig* Hmm... lol
His opponents might not have played perfectly, but neither did he. And I shouldn't even have to mention how big of a logically fallacy it is to say something is bad when it is countered.
The point is, if you compare Summer Bloom to other cards that are banned (Seething Song, Rite of Flame) it is very often stronger, because you don't even need the full combo before you can use it. You can just dump 5 or 6 mana on the board turn 2, and now you are Way ahead of you opponent and can usually leverage that advantage into a win over the following turn(s).
I would guess Summer Bloom gets banned this next cycle if it continues to be as popular as it is now.
I think you missread what was written, either by him or me. He said that Snapcaster + delve creatures is more midrange, and that Dark Confidant is more tempo. I think this is wrong.
Also, the reason there are multiple Twin threads is because there are multiple color and card combinations putting up actual results. There is no reason to make another thread for some theoretical Dark Confidant + Disrupting Shoal fuelled "tempo" deck in any other place than Deck Creation in order to get that conversation out of the competitive discussion until it has put up results to prove it belongs here.
Having Snapcaster Mage and delve creatures is not indicative of a midrange deck. Quite the opposite in fact. Tempo wants to play things at instant speed and cast undercosted fatties, not 2/1s for two that grind out an advantage over multiple turns. The more I read your posts, the less I think you actually understand what it is you're saying.
I ran a single Mystic Speculation in my list a while back. It is good in top-deck wars, especially if you have a prowess creature or Young Pyromancer to benefit from the repeat casts. You do sometimes have to just bite the bullet though and cast it without buyback when you need to find something early, usually removal. Pretty much a fun-of.