Jace seems to be way less exciting to me than I had hoped. + ability is good, but doesn't seem to get me riled up for 5cmc. - is more expensive than in past (lookin at you JtMS). Ultimate is what it is....
Feeling like Living Guildpact impact here. Perhaps I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong. I love Jace the character...
Thus far the data does show that it is oppressive. I'm not arguing that point. However, this was 1 PT and a deck that, in its current state, was introduced this weekend. The meta has not been given time to adjust. I think we should allow time to see if it is able. The point of banning the mana base to eliminate a deck after one tourney seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Again, to my earlier point, this is great for pack sales as much of this deck is in the most current set... aka: money for WotC. I'm not going to bet against a ban, certainly not about which card(s) are best to ban. I'm simply saying that it is still early in the life of this deck.
Decks that are oppressive get banned. Decks that win before the WotC stated turn total of 4 or more turns get banned. Even with that, no deck has had a ban after 1 tournament (beyond Blazing Shoal at the birth of the format) or even within 1 set release of its inception. Give it time, let the meta adjust, then see. If it proves that the issue is the early kill from Mimic, ban Mimic. If the deck proves to be oppressive overall even after the meta adjusts, ban the mana base to eliminate the deck. If it proves that it's a couple of the creatures like Mimic and TKS, ban them. All I can say is that I appreciate the innovation of the teams that came up with this and applaud a great deck. That is even with "boring" coverage.
The Mimic is what allows a turn 2 win. The lands are a menace but so are the tron lands. I have faced (as well as played) the deck. It's good. I get that, but it plays within the rules of Modern (turn 4+) with the lands legal. I don't think WotC wants to eliminate decks because they are good. They want to keep the decks that fit the format goals in the format... except Twin.
WotC is a business. They want to make money. They need to sell packs. Thus, with only stats from 1 tourney they are not going to ban anything. If this continues to dominate, then sure we will see something.
I think Eldrazi Mimic is a much cleaner cut than the lands. The deck without Mimic doesn't win on turn 2. The land without Eldrazi Temple or Eye of Ugin doesn't exist (most likely).
We don't have a judge at FNM. We only have the TO. He let the players involved in this game decide this ruling since he was busy with customers. Not that he has ever really read through the rule book and fit to make a ruling anyway.
So tonight at FNM we had a player who swore they watched the "pros" play a Chandra's Ignition that dealt damage to not only the opponent and the opponent's creatures, but their planeswalkers as well as planeswalkers are "opponents." I'm sure this is not right but he wouldn't back down on this ruling. Please point me to the correct rule so we can have this debacle finished (it affected a round and therefore the final standings).
Are you able to have one of the new dragon lords in play at the same time as their legendary dragon card in Khans? Example: Atarka, World Render and Dragonlord Atarka
It is amazing how fast a game can turn around. Last night we played type 4 and had a person use Rise of the Dark Realms the turn after a pseudo board wipe from a Violent Ultimatum. Urabrask the Hidden was among the cards reanimated and he killed 3 of his 4 opponents with the swing on attack while knocking the last opponent to 3 (he was at 64 still). He passed the turn and his remaining opponent, whom had no cards in hand top decked a Insurrection and swung for well more than lethal.
Many of the creatures in this list function as wraths, counterspells, removal and draw as well. I have a strong graveyard recursion theme woven in this deck as well so nothing really stays dead. There are several big, hard to deal with threats but it balances out with the sheer power of everything. Games usually are intricate, fun and people tend to win out of nowhere. Reanimate an opponents Phage for them is always fun as is bouncing it out and back into play. I have worked really hard on balancing the threats with what can remove them. Let me know if anyone has questions!
Finally a primer for type 4! My play group absolutely loves this format and it is near and dear to me. I have tied way too much up into my type 4 deck as I also try to foil/promo everything I can. I will work on getting my list up, but it is 500 cards deep so it will take me some time.
For us, we shuffle the deck then split it evenly among all players. Starting hand size is 5, maximum hand size is still 7. Alternate costs are tricky but we have settled on suspended cards not counting as your spell for turn nor does the spell cast off of cascade. This primer also needs to point out that no win-now spells/abilities are allowed such as Fireball effects or anything with the Firebreathing type effects. Yes this format leads to some turn 1 kills and infinite combo kills, but with multiple players it is usually kept in check. Cards such as Dark Depths need to be used with caution as it does win on one swing and is a land so not counted towards casting a spell and it is indestructable. I have seen a turn 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Dark Depths, turn 2 Slayers' Stronghold and Aurelia, the Warleader, kill 4 players. Also note that nobody should be able to mulligan their opening hand. It may get too dangerous to do.
Wow... so I'm really late at seeing this discussion but here's my two-cents...
I have a Type 4 deck that I am always improving. It has unfortunately become more and more of an obsession and I sometimes am tying a lot of my time/cards into acquiring and building up this deck. Then I obsess with working on foiling it out as much as possible. I know my stack is way more expensive than many others would ever do. My decks focus is on splash and hay-makers. The downside to that is that there has to be a major balance in wrath effects and removal along with counter. I have also worked it into a graveyard manipulation stack as well. Currently the deck is almost 500 cards which is where I will cap it. We generally have 4 to 8 players at a time but have had up to 10 (hence why it is as large as it is).
I find that utility cards are immediately elevated in the stack. Counterspells are great if they have a little extra utility added such as Arcane Denial, Countermand and Draining Whelk. The graveyard, as I mentioned is a great "extra resource" in type 4. We play with independant libraries and graveyards (divvy cards up face-down after shuffling evenly). This makes cards like Debtors' Knell and Rise of the Dark Realms dangerous cards for everyone. I also have found that you will want several shapeshifters/clones. May I suggest Clever Impersonator and Vesuvan Doppelganger. Overall, when building a stack be very careful to not allow players to win in one turn (fireball type spells, infinite creature spells or infinite pump dragons/creatures). Make sure to have a good balance of creatures and removal and have fun. It is easy to weed out overpowered cards, but I recommend keeping at least a few in (looking at you Griselbrand).
Oh, we also keep max hand size at 5. Too easy to get out of control at anything higher. Great discard spells come in handy too like Myojin of Night's Reach, Wit's End and Head Games.
I certainly have entertained the idea but I'm not sure how prohibitive the cmc is. Seems like a definite add if counter/control becomes more prevalent.
Feeling like Living Guildpact impact here. Perhaps I'm wrong. Please prove me wrong. I love Jace the character...
Decks that are oppressive get banned. Decks that win before the WotC stated turn total of 4 or more turns get banned. Even with that, no deck has had a ban after 1 tournament (beyond Blazing Shoal at the birth of the format) or even within 1 set release of its inception. Give it time, let the meta adjust, then see. If it proves that the issue is the early kill from Mimic, ban Mimic. If the deck proves to be oppressive overall even after the meta adjusts, ban the mana base to eliminate the deck. If it proves that it's a couple of the creatures like Mimic and TKS, ban them. All I can say is that I appreciate the innovation of the teams that came up with this and applaud a great deck. That is even with "boring" coverage.
I think Eldrazi Mimic is a much cleaner cut than the lands. The deck without Mimic doesn't win on turn 2. The land without Eldrazi Temple or Eye of Ugin doesn't exist (most likely).
Thanks!
I love this format!
Land (12):
Alchemist's Refuge
Arena
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Desolate Lighthouse
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Maze of Ith
Miren, the Moaning Well
Prahv, Spires of Order
Slayers' Stronghold
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Volrath's Stronghold
Winding Canyons
Artifacts (29):
Aladdin's Lamp
Aladdin's Ring
Alter of Shadows
Amber Prison
Amulet of Unmaking
Damping Engine
Eye of Doom
Grimoire of the Dead
Helvault
Heroes' Podium
Jester's Mask
Lich's Mirror
Mirari
Nevinyrral's Disk
Null Brooch
Pentagram of the Ages
Perilous Vault
Plague Boiler
Planar Portal
Predator, Flagship
Pyxis of Pandemonium
Reflecting Mirror
Sensei's Divining Top
Spine of Ish Sah
Tower of Eons
Tower of Fortunes
Vedalken Orrery
Wand of Ith
Worldslayer
Creatures (249):
Adarkar Valyrie
Anavolver
Ancient Ooze
Angel of Salvation
Angel of Serenity
Angel of the Dire Hour
Angelic Arbiter
Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Arbiter of Knollridge
Arbor Colossus
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Archangel of Thune
Archetype of Imagination
Ashen Rider
Aurelia, the Warleader
Autochthon Wurm
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Avatar of Hope
Avatar of Might
Avatar of Woe
Aven Fateshaper
Balefire Dragon
Baleful Force
Bane of Progress
Bane of the Living
Baneslayer Angel
Big Game Hunter
Blazing Archon
Blightsteel Colossus
Blinding Angel
Blood Tyrant
Bloodfire Colossus
Borborygmos
Bosh, Iron Golem
Braids, Cabal Minion
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Bringer of the Red Dawn
Butcher Orgg
Caldera Hellion
Callous Oppressor
Celestial Archon
Champion of Stray Souls
Chromanticore
Chromeshell Crab
Clever Impersonator
Cognivore
Colossus of Akros
Consumptive Goo
Crater Hellion
Craterhoof Behemoth
Creepy Doll
Crosis, the Purger
Daxos of Meletis
Darksteel Colossus
Dimir Doppelganger
Dosan the Falling Leaf
Dread
Dread Cacodemon
Draining Whelk
Duplicant
Duskmantle Seer
Elvish Piper
Empyrial Archangel
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ertai, the Corrupted
Ertai, Wizard Adept
Etched Oracle
Eternal Dragon
Eternal Witness
Evil Twin
Experiment Kraj
False Prophet
Firemane Angel
Frost Titan
Furnace Dragon
Garza Zol, Plague Queen
Genesis
Gilded Drake
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Glen Elendra Archmage
Glory
Griselbrand
Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer
Hateflayer
Havengul Lich
High Priest of Penance
Hoarding Dragon
Hoverguard Sweepers
Hundred-Handed One
Hunted Troll
Hushwing Gryff
Hythonia the Cruel
Infernal Spawn of Evil
Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Ink-Treader Nephilim
Intrepid Hero
Ith, High Arcanist
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Jiwari, the Earth Aflame
Jugan, the Rising Star
Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Kami of the Crescent Moon
Karmic Guide
Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Keiga, the Tide Star
Kheru Spellsnatcher
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Kjeldoran Royal Guard
Knacksaw Clique
Knollspine Dragon
Kodama of the North Tree
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Laccolith Titan
Lhurgoyf
Linessa, Zephyr Mage
Lord of Shatterskull Pass
Luminate Primordial
Luminous Angel
Mageta the Lion
Magister of Worth
Magister Sphinx
Magnivore
Magus of the Abyss
Magus of the Mirror
Manaplasm
Mangara of Corondor
Masako the Humorless
Medomai the Ageless
Merieke Ri Berit
Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker
Mindslicer
Moldgraf Monstrosity
Molten Primordial
Mortivore
Myojin of Cleansing Fire
Myojin of Life's Web
Myojin of Night's Reach
Myojin of Seeing Winds
Mystic Snake
Narset, Enlightened Master
Necropolis Regent
Necrotic Sliver
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Nicol Bolas
Novablast Wurm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Oros, the Avenger
Oversoul of Dusk
Pearl Lake Ancient
Pentarch Paladin
Perplexing Chimera
Phage the Untouchable
Phantasmal Image
Phantom Nishoba
Phyrexian Ingester
Phyrexian Metamorph
Plaguebearer
Planar Guide
Prime Speaker Zegana
Primeval Titan
Purity
Quicksilver Dragon
Quicksilver Gargantuan
Rafiq of the Many
Reiver Demon
Resolute Archangel
Restoration Angel
Reya Dawnbringer
Rhox
Root Elemental
Royal Assassin
Rubinia Soulsinger
Rune-Scarred Demon
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Ryusei, the Falling Star
Sakashima the Impostor
Scavenging Ooze
Scion of Darkness
Seizan, Perverter of Truth
Sekki, Seasons' Guide
Sepulchrual Primordial
Serendib Sorcerer
Serra Avatar
Shadowborn Demon
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Shieldmage Advocate
Shipbreaker Kraken
Silent Arbiter
Silent Specter
Silver Seraph
Simic Sky Swallower
Sisters of Stone Death
Skarrg Goliath
Sower of Temptation
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Stalking Assassin
Stingmoggie
Stonecloaker
Stone-Tongue Basilisk
Stronghold Assassin
Sunscape Battlemage
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Teneb, the Harvester
Terastodon
Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts
Thicket Elemental
Thorn Elemental
Thornscape Master
Thousand Winds
Thraximundar
Thundermare
Thundermaw Hellkite
Thunderscape Battlemage
Tidespout Tyrant
Timmy, Power Gamer
Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar
Torchling
Trap Runner
Twilight Shepherd
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Underworld Cerberus
Urabrask the Hidden
Utvara Hellkite
Vengeful Archon
Venomspout Brackus
Venser, Shaper Savant
Verdant Force
Vesuvan Doppelganger
Void Stalker
Voidmage Apprentice
Voidmage Husher
Volrath the Fallen
Willbender
Windbrisk Raptor
Witch Hunter
Woodfall Primus
Worldspine Wurm
Wurmcoil Engine
Yore-Tiller Nephilim
Yosei, the Morning Star
Zealous Conscripts
Zoologist
Counterspells (38):
Arcane Denial
Assert Authority
Bant Charm
Bone to Ash
Cancel
Common Courtesy
Counterflux
Countermand
Counterspell
Decree of Silence
Discombobulate
Dismal Failure
Dismiss
Dissipate
Double Negative
Dromar's Charm
Fervent Denial
Foil
Forbid
Induce Paranoia
Lost in the Mist
Mystic Genesis
Negate
Overwhelming Intellect
Pact of Negation
Planar Chaos
Punish Ignorance
Put Away
Rewind
Spell Blast
Spell Counter
Spelljack
Spite//Malice
Statute of Denial
Suffocating Blast
Swift Silence
Thwart
Vex
Planeswalkers (16):
Ajani Vengeant
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Chandra, the Firebrand
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Garruk, Apex Predator
Garruk, Caller of Beasts
Gideon, Champion of Justice
Jace, Architect of Thought
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Karn Liberated
Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Liliana Vess
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Venser, the Sojourner
Wraths (37):
Akroma's Vengeance
All Is Dust
Austere Command
Balance
Blasphemous Act
Damnation
Day of Judgment
Devastation
Devastation Tide
Dimensional Breach
Disaster Radius
Dregs of Sorrow
Duneblast
Evacuation
Fated Retribution
Fell the Mighty
Final Judgment
Flowstone Slide
Forced March
Gaze of Granite
In Garruk's Wake
Life's Finale
March of Souls
Merciless Eviction
Obliterate
Overwhelming Forces
Pernicious Deed
Phyrexian Rebirth
Plague Wind
Rare-B-Gone
Rout
Starstorm
Sunscour
Supreme Verdict
Terminus
Wave of Reckoning
Wrath of God
All Other Spells/Enchantments (119):
Acquire
Aether Mutation
Agonizing Demise
Archangel's Light
Barrin's Spite
Barter in Blood
Bearscape
Beast Within
Blatant Thievery
Breaking//Entering
Bribery
Cabal Conditioning
Commandeer
Confiscate
Consuming Vapors
Creeping Renaissance
Crime//Punishment
Cruel Ultimatum
Crush of Wurms
Curse of the Swine
Dawn of the Dead
Death Mutation
Death Pits of Rath
Debtors' Knell
Demonic Tutor
Desert Twister
Detonate
Devouring Light
Dig Through Time
Disembowel
Dominate
Dreadbore
Eye for an Eye
Fact or Fiction
Fated Return
Fissure
Flesh//Blood
Force Bubble
Form of the Dragon
Gifts Ungiven
Head Games
Heroes Remembered
Hero's Downfall
Hit//Run
Holistic Wisdom
Honor the Fallen
Hull Breach
Hymn of Rebirth
Hypergenesis
Ill-Gotten Gains
Impulse
Increasing Ambition
Insidious Dreams
Insurrection
Invincible Hymn
Kaboom!
Lava Flow
Lethal Vapors
Living End
Maelstrom Nexus
Maelstrom Pulse
Malevolent Awakening
Memory Plunder
Mind Unbound
Mirror Strike
Mystical Teachings
Neck Snap
No Mercy
Nostalgic Dreams
Oblation
Oblivion Ring
Obzedat's Aid
Orim's Thunder
Path to Exile
Pattern of Rebirth
Phthisis
Price of Knowledge
Proper Burial
Pulse of the Grid
Ray of Distortion
Rescue from the Underworld
Rise of the Dark Realms
Rootgrapple
Savage Beating
Searing Wind
Serene Sunset
Shriveling Rot
Silence the Believers
Slaughter Pact
Spin Into Myth
Spinal Embrace
Spirit Away
Stitch Together
Sultai Charm
Survival of the Fittest
Swords to Plowshares
Take Possession
Telemin Performance
Tempt with Reflections
Terminate
Thought Reflection
Time Reversal
Time Stop
Titanic Ultimatum
Tooth and Nail
Torrent of Fire
Tsabo's Decree
Twilight's Call
Unexpectedly Absent
Utter End
Victimize
Vindicate
Violent Ultimatum
Walk the Aeons
Wargate
Whip of Erebos
Wing Shards
Wit's End
Yawgmoth's Agenda
Many of the creatures in this list function as wraths, counterspells, removal and draw as well. I have a strong graveyard recursion theme woven in this deck as well so nothing really stays dead. There are several big, hard to deal with threats but it balances out with the sheer power of everything. Games usually are intricate, fun and people tend to win out of nowhere. Reanimate an opponents Phage for them is always fun as is bouncing it out and back into play. I have worked really hard on balancing the threats with what can remove them. Let me know if anyone has questions!
For us, we shuffle the deck then split it evenly among all players. Starting hand size is 5, maximum hand size is still 7. Alternate costs are tricky but we have settled on suspended cards not counting as your spell for turn nor does the spell cast off of cascade. This primer also needs to point out that no win-now spells/abilities are allowed such as Fireball effects or anything with the Firebreathing type effects. Yes this format leads to some turn 1 kills and infinite combo kills, but with multiple players it is usually kept in check. Cards such as Dark Depths need to be used with caution as it does win on one swing and is a land so not counted towards casting a spell and it is indestructable. I have seen a turn 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Dark Depths, turn 2 Slayers' Stronghold and Aurelia, the Warleader, kill 4 players. Also note that nobody should be able to mulligan their opening hand. It may get too dangerous to do.
I have a Type 4 deck that I am always improving. It has unfortunately become more and more of an obsession and I sometimes am tying a lot of my time/cards into acquiring and building up this deck. Then I obsess with working on foiling it out as much as possible. I know my stack is way more expensive than many others would ever do. My decks focus is on splash and hay-makers. The downside to that is that there has to be a major balance in wrath effects and removal along with counter. I have also worked it into a graveyard manipulation stack as well. Currently the deck is almost 500 cards which is where I will cap it. We generally have 4 to 8 players at a time but have had up to 10 (hence why it is as large as it is).
I find that utility cards are immediately elevated in the stack. Counterspells are great if they have a little extra utility added such as Arcane Denial, Countermand and Draining Whelk. The graveyard, as I mentioned is a great "extra resource" in type 4. We play with independant libraries and graveyards (divvy cards up face-down after shuffling evenly). This makes cards like Debtors' Knell and Rise of the Dark Realms dangerous cards for everyone. I also have found that you will want several shapeshifters/clones. May I suggest Clever Impersonator and Vesuvan Doppelganger. Overall, when building a stack be very careful to not allow players to win in one turn (fireball type spells, infinite creature spells or infinite pump dragons/creatures). Make sure to have a good balance of creatures and removal and have fun. It is easy to weed out overpowered cards, but I recommend keeping at least a few in (looking at you Griselbrand).
Oh, we also keep max hand size at 5. Too easy to get out of control at anything higher. Great discard spells come in handy too like Myojin of Night's Reach, Wit's End and Head Games.
Enjoy!