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  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from Dejadal »
    I wonder if it would be possible to come up with a build with slightly more green? We would lose some explosiveness for sure, but we would gain Force of Vigor in the sideboard for fighting Leyline (although the current Force of Negation package is probably better against everything besides turn 0 Leyline) and Lotleth Troll would help in the matchups where they get enough big creatures on the board to block our Vines for free.

    This was a large reason for my dislike of Sultai builds. I built a Jund list earlier on here with Living End that is zombie focused. A big reason for not wanting to abandon the Jund colors is because Force of Vigor is a must have in graveyard decks! Honestly, I think Force of Vigor is a big reason Hogaak got banned in the first place, but no one wants to consider how powerful a free destroy 2 artifact or enchantments is...

    I definitely agree however that FoV needs to be a must have in Vengevine decks!
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from killer_eye »
    why won't you give it a try?
    sultai vengevine did a great showing again in modern challenge at 9th position.
    there's also another sultai copy in that top32, result speaks for itself along with it's consistent 5-0 league.

    looting is the primary reason to play red and now it's gone and players already finding success adapting sultai.

    I’ve tried playing the Sultai lists. I don’t think they have enough discard to warrant Vengevine, it can really fall short when you get stuck with a bunch of Vengevines in hand. Also, I keep feeling like the Sultai lists are just weaker versions of dredge. They even adopted Narcomoeba at this point.

    I think there are still ways to make Vengevine work in a jund shell, especially with how powerful Cryptbreaker has become in a world without Faithless Looting.

    The whole reason I fell in love with Bridgevine in the first place was because I didn’t like the awkward mana base in dredge, I liked the zombie theme, and explosive turn 1 plays.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Please post any Jund lists with Vengevine or deck ideas in the Jund archetype running Vengevine if you guys find anything.

    I’m really not convinced that Sultai is the way to go with the deck. The Sultai lists are severely lacking on the ability to discard things without Faithless Looting.

    Hogaakvine was obviously the peak of Bridgevines success...without Hogaak and Looting and BfB, we still need some way to have a powerful aggro list in these colors. I like the Living End combo I built with Vengevines (listed above), however it just seems to not be all that fast to set up, though it can OTK.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from FuneralofGod »
    I feel we need another way to reliably cast LE.. Or if I go for the full playset of Arcanist, maybe another spell for him to target for value. As it stands your list doesn't have many targets besides LE and Memory Sluice. Maybe we could try a Grixis shell also utilizing Tome Scour? Or maybe it's just too cute. I'll make some changes and test out some of your recommendations.
    If going for the purphoros combo, could we consider a singleton Deep Forest Hermit since hitting one of those alongside a pair of Purphoros should be GG. And if that's too cute then maybe at least a Haunted Dead or two?

    I like the idea of having a 3rd copy of Finale if you're going all in on the combo game. Vengevine and Zombie package provides a nice aggro plan B as well


    I like Claim//fame specifically because if it's in your graveyard you can recast the Reanimate half with an active Arcanist. But maybe Postmortem Lunge could be considered as well

    I’m not huge on Deep Forest Hermit. Just milling a couple of Purphoros is enough to close out the game when LE resolves. I did cut 1 copy of Memory Sluice to add a 3rd copy of Finale of Promise, because it usually ensures our LE going through even if they Path our Dreadhorde or have removal.

    Even if we only get a few creatures back from LE in the early game, wiping the opponents board is usually enough to ensure a victory since they will be way behind compared to our board state, and most of our stuff just further mills our deck when it returns and continues setting up the OTK.

    Postmortem Lunge does seem like an interesting addition...but the deck needs to be pretty creature heavy in order to enable Vengevines. Gotta be careful not to add too many spells.

    On the subject of sideboard, I think cutting the Leyline of the Voids and replacing them with 2 copies of Surgical Extraction might be a better option as far as GY hate goes.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from FuneralofGod »
    If multiple Purphoros enter at the same time, do you get multiple triggers before the legend rules knocks all but one out? If so this could be a really cool combo. I would suggest more dredge cards and Cathartic Reunion rather than Satyr and Cryptbreaker. Both are pretty slow if you're trying to combo off by turn 3 or 4.

    I'd like to include Claim//Fame somehow to pull back a milled Arcanist but I'm just not sure there's room

    Yes. Multiple Purphoros trigger before legend rule applies.

    Also, don’t make the mistake I did by cutting the purphoros. The deck needs 4 to ensure a quick kill. Cryptbreaker is a must have in the deck because it is a draw engine that synergizes with Dreadhorde and Stitchers. It’s the only way to refill our hand since we aren’t playing a bunch of cycling cards like traditional Living End. Instead we opt for a more zombie focused mill strategy with emphasis on Vengevines. Cryptbreaker can discard our Living Ends and Purphoros to get some value. It’s basically taking Faithless Lootings spot in the deck alongside Insolent Neonate.

    The deck has a surprisingly useful amount of card draw and Memory Sluice just serves to feed Dreadhorde cards when he’s in play, or opens up Finale of Promise to end the game on the spot.

    Worse case scenario, we can keep board wiping our opponent with Living End until we mill Living End and Purphoros to kill our opponent. Vengevines fit very well in the deck...it’s not uncommon to hit 3 or 4 of them in 1 conspired Memory Sluice.

    I’ve been thinking of taking out Satyr Wayfinder and using Glowspore Shaman instead...just to enable conspire with Memory Sluice.

    Finally, Claim//Fame really isn’t a must have if you run Golgari Thug instead of Stinkweed. Golgari Thug is a bit slower...but it can return Dreadhorde to top of deck if we really need it back that bad, and it frees up a slot for a 3rd Finale of Promise (you’ll want that as a backup in case our opponent bolts Dreadhorde). Most of the time though, we can just cast recursive threats until we draw into another Dreadhorde or Finale.

    Also as a big tip...always try to mull for Vengevine turn 2 or Dreadhorde turn 2. It’s a bit different than the old lists where you wanna play out a bunch of 1 drops on turn 1...you can Memory Sluice turn 1 and save your 1 drops for turn 2.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Quote from killer_eye »
    sorry in advance if i might sound arrogant here.

    but i can't understand why you need to go in a lot of trouble to cast dreadhorde arcanist, ensure it won't die and can attack next turn to cast living end from graveyard just to get a bunch of 1/1's and some vengevines, it just require so much setup to do when all you need to do is just to cast 2 creatures to trigger vengevines.

    yes, you may have purphoros but don't expect to have good chances of getting it when the list is not optimized for that. it's either you pick vengevine path or the living end path.

    With the new inclusion of Finale of Promise in my Jund Living Endvine list, it’s opened up a few new possibilities. Dreadhorde becomes less of a risk because we have a backup plan if it’s removed.

    To be honest, the reason I took it into this direction is because I really really don’t like having to change up the decks mana base. All these lists splashing blue are gravitating further and further from the Vengevine plan and basically becoming Dredge with the exception of wanting Vengevines in the list. Dredge just does all of this stuff better and without the need for Vengevine.

    I’ve always liked the Jund mana base with Vengevine decks.

    I can see what you mean with Purporos plan, but if you consider how the old lists with BfB played out...it’s quite similar. You mill yourself and hit Vengevines and Living End. Then you cast Living End as a board wipe that also gets a bunch of your creatures back...

    It’s a strange mixture of cards, sure...but it allows us to get a similarly powerful effect as BfB use to have.

    At the very least, it’s a 2 mana board wipe with Finale of Promise...at the very most, it will kill the opponent as soon as it resolves. Either way you’d get value out of Living End in BfB’s place.

    It saddens me that I’ve had to take such a strange route in order to keep Jund Dredgevine viable...but once again trying to throw Blue in all these lists is only serving to make them less consistent and just basically turning the deck into Dredge, which has better ways to win without wasting a slot on Vengevine.

    Also keep in mind, all our 1/1’s mill our deck more. So when we hit Living End and resolve it, we can usually bring back Dreadhorde and loop LE for a 2nd time the following turn...insuring we mill Purphoros, and deal a huge amount of dmg to our opponent.

    It’s an expensive strategy (which is why I haven’t jumped to build it in paper yet) but it seems to actually be working well. I’ll continue testing...but until I see a list that isn’t basically just Hogaak without Hogaak, I’m more interested in winnning as early as turn 3 with Living End and Vengevines as an added bonus, than trying to win through Vengevines and Amalgams when Batterskull pretty much prevents Vengevine from being effective at all.

    I also removed Memnite from the deck. Not enough reason to run it anymore. Instead opted for 4 Cryptbreakers to give the deck both a draw and discard outlet that also works well with the other zombies in the deck. Keep in mind when we switch to BUG-Vine we lose the ability to run Force of Vigor in the side for g2. Force of Vigor is the best artifact removal in the format and it can win us games through graveyard hate easily.

    Jund Endvine:

    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Living End
    Today I discovered Finale of Promise. Instead of playing 3 Claim//Fame, I’ve opted to put in 2 copies of Finale of Promise to speed up the chances of resolving Living End by a large margin. It even doubles as a 2 mana board wipe in the worst case scenario of having Living End in the GY...even without any creatures to enter with it.

    This adds some interaction to the deck, without subtracting from the OTK game plan.

    It makes the matchup vs. other creature decks much less stressful, since we aren’t all in on Dreadhorde and if it gets removed, we still have a way to cast Living End at sorcery speed which is much less likely to get Path to Exiled or Fatal Pushed.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Living End
    Claim//Fame was more important in the list because it can give Dreadhorde haste in order to go off the same turn. I do agree that the deck has no interaction and probably could use Fatal Push or Thoughtseize in order to prevent faster decks from winning.

    I found the topper that I needed as well. Purphoros, God of the Forge just kills the opponent when it comes into play with a bunch of creatures from Living End resolving. Alternatively we might mill more than 1 Purphoros and when LE resolves it will overkill the opponent.

    As far as the memnites...they enable Vengevines on turn 1. Carrion Feeder and Bloodghast just served to slow the deck down sadly, which is why I switched them out for speed instead of synergy.

    On a good day...the deck can win on turn 3...which makes it a pretty fair level of power at the cost of having no interaction.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Figured I’d post 2 different lists. 1 is the back to basics old school vengevine aggro strategy. This is still viable if we play Memnites and Ornithopters to cheat out Vengevines on turn 1. Goblin Bushwhacker just speeds up the deck by a large amount and with all the 0 cmc stuff, you can give everything haste and quickly steal games! Walking Ballista and Hangarback Walker don’t work well anymore because there is no bridge from below for value off them dying. But overall the list takes us back to the “explosive” nature of Vengevine and is still viable through all the bans.

    Old School Vengevine:

    Secondly, we have my wombo combo version of Dredgevine with the interaction between Dreadhorde Arcanist and Living End. Purphoros’ God of the Forge can win the game on the spot if we resolve Living End with Purphoros’ (or multiples) in the graveyard. It’s an instant wincon with the downside of being an all in combo deck without much interaction. Once again, the idea is that we pretty much turned Living End into a new BfB. We want to mill it and start getting value off it quickly. It can close out the game by being flashed back...or just hard cast it for Suspend to give the opponent a 3 turn clock.


    ***Quick Edit***

    Finale of Promise fits into the deck perfectly and doubles as a 2 mana board wipe as long as you have Living End in your graveyard!

    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Living End
    Hope I’m not late to the party but I’m gonna drop a bomb in here if it hasn’t already been mentioned.

    Dreadhorde Arcanist = Living End on a stick.

    I’m actually a Bridgevine player...but without my beloved BfB or Faithless Looting to keep my deck alive, I’ve had to turn to some pretty weird strategies to continue playing my Vengevines.

    I know usually Living End likes to Cascade into stuff...but with Dreadhorde Arcanist, it’s possible to play a mill version of the deck.

    I know this isn’t the place for Bridgevine jank...but here’s a list I was working on trying to replace BfB with a Living End combo. Once Living End resolves, my deck gets a bunch of mill triggers and refills the graveyard to Living End more than once in a game. Maybe you guys could get some ideas from it?


    Another reason I’m posting in Living End, is because I need some help finding a good topper for my deck. Seeing as you guys know all about getting value out of your Living End resolving, what are some good instant value creatures to bring back from GY? I chose Tyrant of Discord solely because it makes the opponent sacrifice a bunch of permanents on etb...but I haven’t really looked very hard for a better option. Suggestions?
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Well guys, in a bunch of testing I’ve come up with a fresh idea for the deck.

    This might be too cute...but I’ve built a Vengevine deck with Living End on a stick (Dreadhorde Arcanist)!

    Basically, Dreadhorde can be used to flashback any of the spells in our deck for free. So the idea is to mill a ton of cards off Memory Sluice and play Living End as early as turn 3. Play Dreadhorde Arcanist on turn 2 and use him to flashback Memory Sluice if the graveyard is empty. In a backup scenario, we are also a Vengevine deck so we can have an explosive early game and an equally explosive midrange play!

    Once again, this deck is quite the meme...it’s all in on the graveyard with no interaction, similar to the old Bridgevine lists. It’s weak to main deck hate...but what more do you want out of an all in graveyard combo deck?! Think of Living End as our new Bridge from Below.

    We can also use Claim//Fame to get Dreadhorde out of the grave and give it haste to combo off for 3 mana! If the game goes too long, you can just suspend the Living End to add a 3 turn clock.

    Also, some tuning might be required...I’m still trying to figure out the best topper for a shell like this. We need 2 copies of a big beefy creature that makes the opponent sacrifice things on etb. Tyrant of Discord seemed to fit that role, but again, I haven’t spent a lot of time looking for better options. Suggestions?

    Let me know what you think of this spice!

    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    I agree completely! Tried running a list that was almost identical. I wound up with 3 Vengevines in my hand for the entire game and it felt really bad!

    I keep finding that Neonate is now a must have in the deck of it runs Vengevine. Also, I keep coming back to Golgari Thug, because it allows us to sac it and skip a dredge to get things like Neonate back repeatedly to keep discarding.

    All in all, I just don’t like the Sultai lists at the moment. They aren’t terrible, and can even run Skaab Ruinator to replace Hogaak...but I loved the Jund shell, and splashing all this blue just turns the deck into a less explosive dredge deck with some Vengevines added for flavor.

    A card I’ve been heavily researching is Dreadhorde Arcanist. This almost seems like a good zombie to play in jund lists because it can flashback our 1 cmc spells. It might lessen the downside of things like Burning Inquiry and Memory Sluice by allowing us to flash them back for value.

    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    Wow, Pit Keeper is perfect...never saw that in my hours of searching for a similar card! Definitely gonna consider that one!

    Still not sold on DDG though. It’s not as consistent as I’d like it to be. Not nearly as easy to play late game either, due to the cost.

    I’ve also been testing 2 Goblin Bushwhacker in my shell instead of Cryptbreaker. Gives Lazotep Reavers and 1/1 Thugs a bit of an upside and helps the deck be a bit more aggro in case we don’t have DDG. I do like your inclusion of Glowspore Shaman and might consider it as well, and you might’ve made the right choice in your DDG list by cutting 1 copy. Haven’t tried cutting 1 from my list yet, but it sucks getting flooded with Demons in hand.

    Here’s my newest list.

    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Dredgevine
    So I’ve updated my Demon of Deaths Gate list. Noxious Revival is definitely a good choice!

    Also Sibsig Muckdraggers seems kind of interesting. It can immediately return DDG to your hand and give you a body to sack. Quite costly for 9 mana though, and it’s hard to consider a slot for it...possibly another 1 of card but the deck really has to keep consistency!
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/08/2019)
    I’m a dredgevine player and the whole reason I turned to modern was because of combo decks and interesting ways to brew with Faithless Looting. I wish Hogaak never would’ve been printed. It destroyed my favorite archetype by getting Bridge from Below banned, and then destroyed every other deck I play with the Faithless Looting ban.

    I understand Hogaak was unfair and thought it would’ve gotten banned long before causing the graveyard witch-hunt that followed.

    Even with a large chunk of decks being killed by the reckless banning of looting...combo decks like NeoBrand and Twiddle storm still survive. Tron still reigns supreme and the meta just became less diverse with this decision.

    I was all for SFM getting unbanned...but killing a ton of other decks that may have helped keep SFM in check with decent power level just makes for a worse format all together.

    Faithless Looting was a staple of modern...killing that many decks is a bad choice and people like me who have invested lots of money into graveyard strategies get burned very badly.

    I basically can’t even play modern at my LGS because the looting ban hit ALL of my decks!
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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