How far do we get with the current deck -FDZ -precursor golem +glorious sunrise (draw at beginning of combat) + Lead the stampede (draw creatures for setup)?
Yeah and making the deck able to take multiple combat steps is difficult; allowed haste enablers are Thousand year elixir (ability is way too strong) and Tyvar, Jubilent Brawler (potentially safer, but difficult to recur at the right frequency). Also, Hungry for more wouldn't work.
Potentially something like Lead the stampede could work to draw extra creatures but that's a whole card slot.
Would Aetherworks marvel work as a replacememnt for Arcanists's owl to cast nonlands from the library?
Yeah that's a shame; I also really liked that final limitation being the number of creature types there are. (and therefore that the deck technically gets better over time without changing any cards)
Probably the best draw engine is one limited by the turn structure; e.g. Leinore, Autumn Sovreign. That also gets the layer that FDZ didn't end up having anyway.
Krirk isn't the only lifelinker in the deck; there's also the tokens from Hungry for more. That gives access to at least one easier pseudo-computation without needing to juggle BBM triggers for krirk, which should provide enough life to set up a decent hyperstage; as well as safe SSA resolutions. But it does look like the first SSA cast needs to use up one of our draws, if the necessary mana can only come from worldfire.
But we can use up all the available draws from the 13 computation types to amass as many resources as we can before the first true computations. (minus a few for the required deaths in non-computational stage transitions - which I think are just thrull and archon. my setup above also kills riftsweeper without a chance to AE it, but I think that can be replaced with keeping actual riftsweeper triggers on the stack rather than BBM triggers); so using up one of these draws for the first SSA is fine.
I forgot that Hungry for more also costs life; and while it can trigger volutes, they can't do anything meaningful (like gain back the life) after resolving helix.
So this means the minimum life to start a helix transition is 3; and with Arcanist's owl you end up on 3 after playing pious. So it looks like that actually does work (and without it it actually wouldn't work).
I though it might still be tricky to ensure the opponent survives the next spite when we get to it; however we can now simply donate a cephalid shrine with one of the wrong turn triggers that is normally at the top of a typical volute transition.
Hmm; that means the entire process of creating a full megastage transition, doing things with it, and then resolving back down to a repeatable state; must start on at least 3 life (as a volute trigger must be made), and ends up on 2 life. This means the lower hyperstage actually runs out of life on this exchange and fails to be a hyperstage.
Also, this setup means that ivory mask would go infinite (it allows the process to start on 3 life and end up on 7).
With ivory mask the solution to this is to ensure that any sorceries resolved after worldfire can't gain us life; the easiest way to do so seems to be replacing Divine Congregation for Starlight.
Without ivory mask we'd need to somehow gain exactly 5 or 6 life. (6 life being allowed because starting the process on 3 and ending on 4 doesn't go infinite). And I don't see how to do that.
(Also, waiting foundry activations for Riftsweeper and Chromescale drake don't work due to trapping those cards in exile, but simply waiting actual ETB triggers (as well as PB triggers for retargetting) + BBM triggers do work.)
Here's my attempt at proving that this infinite idea doesn't work:
In order to go infinite, we need a process that, starting with thrull in play, ends up with thrull in hand, without having used a token; and leave the state in such a way that this process is repeatable.
At the start we may assume that there are no PB triggers from a thrull at the top of the stack - such triggers would either come from the nontoken (and thus thrull is in the grave), or a token (in which case we're either down one token and thrull is in hand, or we've remade that token and thrull is in grave/exile/library).
The process must look like:
(section A)
flashback souls for 2 life and trigger volute on spite and X, putting the spite on *top*.
(section B)
flashback souls for 2 life and trigger volute on spite and Y
(section C)
resolve spite
(section D - setup from B)
resolve spite, resolve another spell from volute
(section E - setup from A)
At least 2 flashbacks are necessary during the process as otherwise there's no opportunity to cast wrong turn and safely donate critical pieces such as orrery (and thrull that we hope to bounce for free at the end of the process).
Section D must be done without orrery in play; as there's no opportunity to cast wrong turn between the two spites (and no way to keep a token one). So everything that happens in section D must be setup in section B. Similarly, we also can't have foundry in play.
The minimum number of archon triggers we need from the D-E spite is at least 5 - both volutes, embelem, pious, and cowardice. Each of these are necessary for recreating the state necessary in section E to repeat this process, and are not donatable.
The maximum number of archon triggers we can arrange in section D is at most 4 - using a BBM-archon, foundty-archon, BBM-harmonic, and foundry-harmonic; while opponent controls a suitable hacked dralnu's crusade. In between those foundry and BBM triggers we also need riftsweeper and shreikhorn triggers.
Even achieving this is difficult and perhaps not possible. In section B, we only have access to the thrull in play (not in hand, as it must have been in play at section A else this process doesn't achieve an infinite in the first place; and we don't have any tokens; else those tokens were also in play at A and would be lost by this process regardless and not help go infinite - and we can't resolve fated (or a bounce) as the volute-spite trigger is on top). So with just that one thrull it seems hard to get the required bounces to set up so many triggers on the stack.
Additionally, requiring a foundry on the stack tracking the archon in exile (which doesn't get to use LKI) makes it difficult to also have the archons necassary in section C.
Also, it looks like harmonic is completely replaceable by Mirror Gallery or Mirror Box, which would make this even harder.
Thus, we can't create the archon triggers necassary to make the process repeatable, thus we don't go infinite.
It doesn't look like there's a necessity for artificat-ification to be gated by blue.
Activating it during a computation only interferes if MotM is in play; but MotM in play during a computation means that coat of arms will die and we don't go infinite.
It does allow opponents to kill pious during a batch of archon triggers, but I don't think that's an issue - after having resolved one, there are no PB triggers able to retarget and get an extra pious from the batch.
And that allows room for the Ivory mask that I determined may be necessary for megastage transitions.
A summary of processes in the deck (even though this particular deck apparently doesn't actually work, but it's useful to understand the ideas and what was intended):
Computation:
Setup: opponent controls coat of arms, a configuration of hacked dralnu's crusades and xathid necromancers, several creatures of various types, a lifelink creature with arcbond. Comeuppance cast at any point during the turn.
Activation: Cast Kaeverk's Spite with Goblin Boom Keg in play. Damage an arcbond creature.
Output: Opponent controls BB(X) creatures once stack resolves.
Note: Only a few copies of AE are required to set up a new computation from a previous one.
General tier-N stage template:
A tier-N resource A, with tier N-1 resource B
Transition creation: A process to spend 1 A and a small amount of triggers to create a transition on the stack and many B
Transition use: A process to remove all B and create 1 A. After which, everything is back in the same state necessary to create another transition.
(the "spending a small amount of triggers" can be done in transition use instead of creation, but that's equivalent to considering those triggers as part of the transition)
Procedure: Start with X A. Repeatedly: create a transition for many B, convert this B into triggers (so it's not lost on transition use; but it isn't accessible above higher transitions).
Once out of (or low on) A, use B for "top-level" work, typically scaling resource gain.
Once out of/low on B/triggers, use transition to get A. Use some triggers to recreate transition for many B again. This can recursively be treated as the "top-level" work for for the tierN-1 stage below this first transition. (it's ok if resource scaling as actually only obtained after resolving several transitions; as *that* point can be treated as the "top level".)
Overall result is many tierN-1 stages. (where a tier0 stage is a layer).
General "alternating triggers/activations" stage template:
Resource A.
Batch creation: Spend A to create a batch of X triggers and a batch of Y triggers.
Resource regain: Resolving a few Y trigger followed by an X trigger, and a few X triggers followed by a Y trigger, generates A, and resets the state necessary to create more batches.
Can be transformed to the general tier-N stage template for N=1, as follows:
Lower tier resource: Y triggers
Transition: X batch after a Y
Transition creation: Spend A to create an X batch and a Y batch
Transition use: Resolve Y batch (using them up). Use X after Y, then resolve down to next Y, to create A.
At the top level, X and Y can be used for other work.
As it's symmetric between X and Y, you only need a small number of X triggers with a big Y batch or vice versa.
There's a special case where generating an X batch and a Y batch both cost A, but resolving a few Y any time after a few X have resolved generates A:
Batch creation: Spend A on X batch, resolve some. Spend A on Y batch, resolve some to generate A.
Resource regain: Resolve the Xs, then result a Y to generate A.
Foundry stage:
Setup: Many copies of bloodblond march and psychic battle in play, Cowardice, Cephalid shrine, Embelem of the warmind in play. Nontoken thrull in play.
Resource: Thrull tokens (and nontoken thrull in play)
Batch creation: Spend thrull token to bounce thrull and get many PB triggers. Play thrull for many BBM triggers.
Resource regain: Resolving PB after BBM bounces thrull. Resolving BBM after PB returns it to play after putting it under a foundry for a token, then using riftsweeper and shreikhorn to return to hand.
At the top level, PB triggers can be used to bounce various things.
(the special-case stage form above, where creating both batches costs the resource, doesn't apply since creating a thrull token from a BP after a BBM does not leave you in a state where you can create more batches)
Volute hyperstage:
Resource: Life
Lower tier resource: Thrull tokens
Setup: Krirk in play, volutes in pay on spite and fated, TYS in play, thrull in hand
Transition creation: Fairly convoluted, due to needing to juggle the volutes, the nontoken artifacts, and multiple archons, and ensuring we still get the necassary resource scaling, and can set up computations; and also only assuming access to one TYS (as I can't find a way to keep copies).
(section A):
- Put a twinning glass trigger, and BBM triggers for the various creatures on the stack, including thrull
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-spite and volute-fated
(section B)
- Resolve volute-fated, moving volute to a spell X. Keep TYS-fated on the stack. Use PB-fated to bounce thrull.
- Put BBM-archon triggers on the stack
- Put a shreikhorn trigger on the stack
- Put BBM-riftsweeper triggers on the stack
- Put BBM-thrull triggers on the stack. Using one, bounce riftsweeper and shreikhown, and put fated and souls back into grave.
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-spite and volute X (where X is AE or arcbond)
(section C)
- Resolve volute-X, moving volute to fated
- Use X (it's PB triggers and/or TYS triggers) to bounce thrull; cowardice can also be bounced to use X to setup computational stuff.
- Put BBM-Archon triggers on the stack
- Put souls back into grave
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-sprite and volute-fated
(section D)
- Resolve volute-fated, moving volute to wrong turn.
- Use fated's TYS to make many thrulls, as well as BBMs, PBs, and anything else needed
- Put BBM-archon triggers on the stack
- Put souls and fated back into grave
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-spite and volute-wrong
(section E)
- Resolve volute-wrong, keeping TYS trigger on the stack
- Use many thrull tokens to build stage
Transition use:
(section F - setup from E)
- Bounce cowardice, and use TYS-wrong to donate many things - BBMs and PBs to keep resource scaling, the nontoken artifacts (including orrery), anything else wanted for computations, and nontoken thrull
- Resolve volute-spite. Everything is sacced, all volutes triggers on the stack are now using LKI, spite is exiled. A computation may be started.
(section G - setup from D)
- Resolve archon trigger for pious for 2 life.
- Resolve BBM-archon
(section H - setup from C)
- Resolve archon trigger for pious for 2 life
- Resolve BBM-archon
(section I - setup from B)
- Resolve archon trigger for pious for 2 life
- Resolve BBM-archon
- Resolve BBM-riftsweeper and shreikhorn to put spite in the yard
- Resolve TYS-fated for many archons
(section J - setup from A)
- Resolve many archons, for pious for 2 life as well as all other necassary enchantments, including volutes on spite and fated
- Resolve BBM-thrull triggers, as well as other BBM triggers. use thrull to bounce nontoken artifacts from opponent.
- Resolve twinning staff trigger to play orrery.
Now we're back in the position to set up A, and we needed to use BBM-thrull triggers to bounce the stuff at the end to do so - and must resolve down to the next PB trigger to get thrull to hand again. (we could have set it up similarly to use PB-thrull triggers, but we'd need to resolve down to the next BBM-thrull to recover the same state as the start)
But the problem lijil identified was that when volutes are resolved in the opposite order, volute triggers could be used instead and go infinite.
However... is the line lijil suggested actually possible?
In order to go infinite this way, there must be a volute-X trigger below a volute-spite trigger; and below that normal stage stuff. When resolving through that we need to to have multiple archons in play (at least 2 for pious and cowardice, and probably more for embelem,opelesence,omni,TYS,etc). We also need to have donated our stuff in order to be able to recover properly into normal stage stuff (as well as bounce a donated thrull for infinite).
How do we have multiple archons in play?
In my line above, I needed to ensure a TYS-fated trigger was available at the equivilant point for this purpose. But because we're using a backwards volute stack, that's not possible.
Having to donate stuff means we have to have resolved wrong turn and thus played a second spite (else, we're down 2 life on the exchange and not infinite). This means any archons we created before don't work - we need to create them in between resolving the spite for wrong turn and this spite.
Harmonic prodigy could get a second archon trigger but you'd need to use AE first; which doesn't seem possible in this window either.
The closest thing would be saving up foundry activations. However, apparently LKI isn't used to refer to "the exiled card" in linked abilities (I recently asked in RulesGuru server about whether Skyclave Apparition can use LKI). This means the foundry ability on the stack would need to actually track the archon in exile, making it difficult for archon to have also been accessible during the needed wrong turn cast.
Additionally, setting up a suitable foundry activation seems to need thrull. If it's on the battlefield, using it means there are no accessible BBM triggers to return it until after the volute triggers, and we don't go infinite. If it's in hand and we play it for BBM triggers, it ought to have been in hand at the start of the setup too - I don't see a way to get an extra bounce with the backwards volute stack - and thus bouncing it back to hand at the end of the combo ought to not be an issue.
Maybe there's some clever convoluted way to make this setup go infinite but I'm not sure I see it.
Edit: Oh, dralnu's makes harmonic apply.
But that's still only 2 archon triggers. It still seems like you need more than that to go infinite though?
Edit: Maybe we can get to a 3rd by hanging a foundry activation on harmonic.
Helix megastage
Resource: Red mana
Lower tier resource: Life
Setup: Spellweaver helix in play with worldfire, divine congregation, and hungry for more exiled.
Transition creation:
- Using some BBM/PB triggers, Put a twinning glass activation, some chromescale triggers, and some riftweaver triggers (with corresponding PB triggers) on the stack
- Flashback hungry for more for R. Trigger helix, play all the sorceries.
- Resolve TYS-divine. Gain many life. Build megastage.
As the megastage can run computations, each copy of divine scales resources by BB.
Transition use:
- Resolve worldfire
- Resolve riftweaver triggers, using PB triggers to retarget to legal targets, reshuffling everything
- Resolve chromescale triggers, putting artifacts to hand
- Resolve twinning glass, playing orrery
- Play mox ruby for R
- Use BBM/PB triggers to re-set up helix and other exiled things
Blue mana can also be amassed through mox saphire.
Life can also be spent to trigger volute without spite for plentiful use of things instants provide (copies, AE-hacks).
At the end of the megastage then R can be spent without worldfire for plentiful life and lower resources.
Edit: However, an issue I've noticed with this setup: how do we get omni into play?
Twinning glass doesn't work, as we don't have a way to put omni in hand. (and using something like Arcanist's Owl looks like it enables pious to be recycled too cheaply.) Replenish doesn't work as it's only able to be cast immediately after worldfire. So it looks like we need to resolve down to the hyperstage transition to sac an archon.
But then we're casting spite. We don't have a way to counter it; cephalid shrine isn't in play (we're having difficulty getting enchantments into play). So somebody has to lose 5 life, but both are at 1.
We can't even afford to lose 5 life if we had it - that would make the hyperstage too expensive.
But giving the opponent life is hard too. We need to give them an arcbonded lifelinker and sac GBK to spite. But it doesn't look like we're able to cast both arcbond and wrong turn in time. Plus, if we lose the nontoken GBK, how do we actually start computations?
Maybe we could add Ivory mask, so that an archon trigger can put that into play to fizzle spite targetting ourself. But that uses a cardslot.
Also it does need 2 archon triggers (as we also need pious) but perhaps archon+harmonic can be used and the spell waiting in the volute trigger for this transition is AE rather than wrong turn. (or simply fated). But then we're losing orrery without a chance to safely donate, so we need to set this up to be able to happen without orrery?
Green mana stage
Resource: Green mana
Setup: Hacked kunesh and many harmonic prodigy in play, groundskeeper/firebrand ranged in play and turned into artifacts. Many gauntlets in play. Forest and Mounatin in grave.
Batch creation: Spend G on groundskeeper for many kunesh-GK triggers. Spend G on firebrand ranger for many kunesh-FR triggers. (Also resolve some in between as per the special-case stage form above)
Resource regain: When an FR resolves after having resolved GK, get many R and a G. Build hyperstage to put the lands back grave.
White mana stage (mislabeled as blue mana stage)
This actually doesn't work for 2 reasons, but is fixable.
Patron of the moon can sacrifice archon too cheaply through offering. I think it can be replaced by Arboreal Grazer.
Dryad arbor can be cloned for too cheap green mana. But it seems like its purpose is just to be donatable for wayfarer, so any colourless manland works (e.g. mutavault).
(Edit: In fact I think it has to be exactly mutavualt. If it had a creature type, it could be hacked, and then opp could activate it to change the type which breaks computation).
Resource: White mana
Setup: Opponent controls several mutavaults. Hacked kunesh and many harmonic prodigy in play, wayfarer and ruin ghost are artifacts. Archaelogical dig in library.
Batch creation: Spend W on weathered wayfarer for many kunesh-WWF triggers. Spend W on ghost for many kunesh-RG triggers.
(Resolve some in between as per special-case stage setup).
Resource regain: After WWF has resolved, dig can be put into play with grazer. Resolving a RG flickers dig for W, and resolving some more can flicker forest for G. (we can resolve half of the RGs for many G). Build G stage, putting dig in library.
Layers
Each resolution of SSA creates a treasure (thus a W)
Each golem trigger creates many SSA copies
Casting SSA creates many golem triggers
Each draw allows one SSA cast
Each zubera death creates many draw triggers
60 zubera deaths are allowed per creature type not used in computation.
Potentially something like Lead the stampede could work to draw extra creatures but that's a whole card slot.
Would Aetherworks marvel work as a replacememnt for Arcanists's owl to cast nonlands from the library?
Probably the best draw engine is one limited by the turn structure; e.g. Leinore, Autumn Sovreign. That also gets the layer that FDZ didn't end up having anyway.
Hmm, I've just noticed a significant issue though. FDZ death triggers can cause us to draw instants before starting a computation.
But we can use up all the available draws from the 13 computation types to amass as many resources as we can before the first true computations. (minus a few for the required deaths in non-computational stage transitions - which I think are just thrull and archon. my setup above also kills riftsweeper without a chance to AE it, but I think that can be replaced with keeping actual riftsweeper triggers on the stack rather than BBM triggers); so using up one of these draws for the first SSA is fine.
So this means the minimum life to start a helix transition is 3; and with Arcanist's owl you end up on 3 after playing pious. So it looks like that actually does work (and without it it actually wouldn't work).
I though it might still be tricky to ensure the opponent survives the next spite when we get to it; however we can now simply donate a cephalid shrine with one of the wrong turn triggers that is normally at the top of a typical volute transition.
Also, this setup means that ivory mask would go infinite (it allows the process to start on 3 life and end up on 7).
With ivory mask the solution to this is to ensure that any sorceries resolved after worldfire can't gain us life; the easiest way to do so seems to be replacing Divine Congregation for Starlight.
Without ivory mask we'd need to somehow gain exactly 5 or 6 life. (6 life being allowed because starting the process on 3 and ending on 4 doesn't go infinite). And I don't see how to do that.
(Also, waiting foundry activations for Riftsweeper and Chromescale drake don't work due to trapping those cards in exile, but simply waiting actual ETB triggers (as well as PB triggers for retargetting) + BBM triggers do work.)
In order to go infinite, we need a process that, starting with thrull in play, ends up with thrull in hand, without having used a token; and leave the state in such a way that this process is repeatable.
At the start we may assume that there are no PB triggers from a thrull at the top of the stack - such triggers would either come from the nontoken (and thus thrull is in the grave), or a token (in which case we're either down one token and thrull is in hand, or we've remade that token and thrull is in grave/exile/library).
The process must look like:
(section A)
flashback souls for 2 life and trigger volute on spite and X, putting the spite on *top*.
(section B)
flashback souls for 2 life and trigger volute on spite and Y
(section C)
resolve spite
(section D - setup from B)
resolve spite, resolve another spell from volute
(section E - setup from A)
At least 2 flashbacks are necessary during the process as otherwise there's no opportunity to cast wrong turn and safely donate critical pieces such as orrery (and thrull that we hope to bounce for free at the end of the process).
Section D must be done without orrery in play; as there's no opportunity to cast wrong turn between the two spites (and no way to keep a token one). So everything that happens in section D must be setup in section B. Similarly, we also can't have foundry in play.
The minimum number of archon triggers we need from the D-E spite is at least 5 - both volutes, embelem, pious, and cowardice. Each of these are necessary for recreating the state necessary in section E to repeat this process, and are not donatable.
The maximum number of archon triggers we can arrange in section D is at most 4 - using a BBM-archon, foundty-archon, BBM-harmonic, and foundry-harmonic; while opponent controls a suitable hacked dralnu's crusade. In between those foundry and BBM triggers we also need riftsweeper and shreikhorn triggers.
Even achieving this is difficult and perhaps not possible. In section B, we only have access to the thrull in play (not in hand, as it must have been in play at section A else this process doesn't achieve an infinite in the first place; and we don't have any tokens; else those tokens were also in play at A and would be lost by this process regardless and not help go infinite - and we can't resolve fated (or a bounce) as the volute-spite trigger is on top). So with just that one thrull it seems hard to get the required bounces to set up so many triggers on the stack.
Additionally, requiring a foundry on the stack tracking the archon in exile (which doesn't get to use LKI) makes it difficult to also have the archons necassary in section C.
Also, it looks like harmonic is completely replaceable by Mirror Gallery or Mirror Box, which would make this even harder.
Thus, we can't create the archon triggers necassary to make the process repeatable, thus we don't go infinite.
It doesn't look like there's a necessity for artificat-ification to be gated by blue.
Activating it during a computation only interferes if MotM is in play; but MotM in play during a computation means that coat of arms will die and we don't go infinite.
It does allow opponents to kill pious during a batch of archon triggers, but I don't think that's an issue - after having resolved one, there are no PB triggers able to retarget and get an extra pious from the batch.
And that allows room for the Ivory mask that I determined may be necessary for megastage transitions.
Computation:
Setup: opponent controls coat of arms, a configuration of hacked dralnu's crusades and xathid necromancers, several creatures of various types, a lifelink creature with arcbond. Comeuppance cast at any point during the turn.
Activation: Cast Kaeverk's Spite with Goblin Boom Keg in play. Damage an arcbond creature.
Output: Opponent controls BB(X) creatures once stack resolves.
Note: Only a few copies of AE are required to set up a new computation from a previous one.
General tier-N stage template:
A tier-N resource A, with tier N-1 resource B
Transition creation: A process to spend 1 A and a small amount of triggers to create a transition on the stack and many B
Transition use: A process to remove all B and create 1 A. After which, everything is back in the same state necessary to create another transition.
(the "spending a small amount of triggers" can be done in transition use instead of creation, but that's equivalent to considering those triggers as part of the transition)
Procedure: Start with X A. Repeatedly: create a transition for many B, convert this B into triggers (so it's not lost on transition use; but it isn't accessible above higher transitions).
Once out of (or low on) A, use B for "top-level" work, typically scaling resource gain.
Once out of/low on B/triggers, use transition to get A. Use some triggers to recreate transition for many B again. This can recursively be treated as the "top-level" work for for the tierN-1 stage below this first transition. (it's ok if resource scaling as actually only obtained after resolving several transitions; as *that* point can be treated as the "top level".)
Overall result is many tierN-1 stages. (where a tier0 stage is a layer).
General "alternating triggers/activations" stage template:
Resource A.
Batch creation: Spend A to create a batch of X triggers and a batch of Y triggers.
Resource regain: Resolving a few Y trigger followed by an X trigger, and a few X triggers followed by a Y trigger, generates A, and resets the state necessary to create more batches.
Can be transformed to the general tier-N stage template for N=1, as follows:
Lower tier resource: Y triggers
Transition: X batch after a Y
Transition creation: Spend A to create an X batch and a Y batch
Transition use: Resolve Y batch (using them up). Use X after Y, then resolve down to next Y, to create A.
At the top level, X and Y can be used for other work.
As it's symmetric between X and Y, you only need a small number of X triggers with a big Y batch or vice versa.
There's a special case where generating an X batch and a Y batch both cost A, but resolving a few Y any time after a few X have resolved generates A:
Batch creation: Spend A on X batch, resolve some. Spend A on Y batch, resolve some to generate A.
Resource regain: Resolve the Xs, then result a Y to generate A.
Setup: Many copies of bloodblond march and psychic battle in play, Cowardice, Cephalid shrine, Embelem of the warmind in play. Nontoken thrull in play.
Resource: Thrull tokens (and nontoken thrull in play)
Batch creation: Spend thrull token to bounce thrull and get many PB triggers. Play thrull for many BBM triggers.
Resource regain: Resolving PB after BBM bounces thrull. Resolving BBM after PB returns it to play after putting it under a foundry for a token, then using riftsweeper and shreikhorn to return to hand.
At the top level, PB triggers can be used to bounce various things.
(the special-case stage form above, where creating both batches costs the resource, doesn't apply since creating a thrull token from a BP after a BBM does not leave you in a state where you can create more batches)
Volute hyperstage:
Resource: Life
Lower tier resource: Thrull tokens
Setup: Krirk in play, volutes in pay on spite and fated, TYS in play, thrull in hand
Transition creation: Fairly convoluted, due to needing to juggle the volutes, the nontoken artifacts, and multiple archons, and ensuring we still get the necassary resource scaling, and can set up computations; and also only assuming access to one TYS (as I can't find a way to keep copies).
(section A):
- Put a twinning glass trigger, and BBM triggers for the various creatures on the stack, including thrull
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-spite and volute-fated
(section B)
- Resolve volute-fated, moving volute to a spell X. Keep TYS-fated on the stack. Use PB-fated to bounce thrull.
- Put BBM-archon triggers on the stack
- Put a shreikhorn trigger on the stack
- Put BBM-riftsweeper triggers on the stack
- Put BBM-thrull triggers on the stack. Using one, bounce riftsweeper and shreikhown, and put fated and souls back into grave.
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-spite and volute X (where X is AE or arcbond)
(section C)
- Resolve volute-X, moving volute to fated
- Use X (it's PB triggers and/or TYS triggers) to bounce thrull; cowardice can also be bounced to use X to setup computational stuff.
- Put BBM-Archon triggers on the stack
- Put souls back into grave
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-sprite and volute-fated
(section D)
- Resolve volute-fated, moving volute to wrong turn.
- Use fated's TYS to make many thrulls, as well as BBMs, PBs, and anything else needed
- Put BBM-archon triggers on the stack
- Put souls and fated back into grave
- Play souls for 2 life, triggering volute-spite and volute-wrong
(section E)
- Resolve volute-wrong, keeping TYS trigger on the stack
- Use many thrull tokens to build stage
Transition use:
(section F - setup from E)
- Bounce cowardice, and use TYS-wrong to donate many things - BBMs and PBs to keep resource scaling, the nontoken artifacts (including orrery), anything else wanted for computations, and nontoken thrull
- Resolve volute-spite. Everything is sacced, all volutes triggers on the stack are now using LKI, spite is exiled. A computation may be started.
(section G - setup from D)
- Resolve archon trigger for pious for 2 life.
- Resolve BBM-archon
(section H - setup from C)
- Resolve archon trigger for pious for 2 life
- Resolve BBM-archon
(section I - setup from B)
- Resolve archon trigger for pious for 2 life
- Resolve BBM-archon
- Resolve BBM-riftsweeper and shreikhorn to put spite in the yard
- Resolve TYS-fated for many archons
(section J - setup from A)
- Resolve many archons, for pious for 2 life as well as all other necassary enchantments, including volutes on spite and fated
- Resolve BBM-thrull triggers, as well as other BBM triggers. use thrull to bounce nontoken artifacts from opponent.
- Resolve twinning staff trigger to play orrery.
Now we're back in the position to set up A, and we needed to use BBM-thrull triggers to bounce the stuff at the end to do so - and must resolve down to the next PB trigger to get thrull to hand again. (we could have set it up similarly to use PB-thrull triggers, but we'd need to resolve down to the next BBM-thrull to recover the same state as the start)
But the problem lijil identified was that when volutes are resolved in the opposite order, volute triggers could be used instead and go infinite.
However... is the line lijil suggested actually possible?
In order to go infinite this way, there must be a volute-X trigger below a volute-spite trigger; and below that normal stage stuff. When resolving through that we need to to have multiple archons in play (at least 2 for pious and cowardice, and probably more for embelem,opelesence,omni,TYS,etc). We also need to have donated our stuff in order to be able to recover properly into normal stage stuff (as well as bounce a donated thrull for infinite).
How do we have multiple archons in play?
In my line above, I needed to ensure a TYS-fated trigger was available at the equivilant point for this purpose. But because we're using a backwards volute stack, that's not possible.
Having to donate stuff means we have to have resolved wrong turn and thus played a second spite (else, we're down 2 life on the exchange and not infinite). This means any archons we created before don't work - we need to create them in between resolving the spite for wrong turn and this spite.
Harmonic prodigy could get a second archon trigger but you'd need to use AE first; which doesn't seem possible in this window either.
The closest thing would be saving up foundry activations. However, apparently LKI isn't used to refer to "the exiled card" in linked abilities (I recently asked in RulesGuru server about whether Skyclave Apparition can use LKI). This means the foundry ability on the stack would need to actually track the archon in exile, making it difficult for archon to have also been accessible during the needed wrong turn cast.
Additionally, setting up a suitable foundry activation seems to need thrull. If it's on the battlefield, using it means there are no accessible BBM triggers to return it until after the volute triggers, and we don't go infinite. If it's in hand and we play it for BBM triggers, it ought to have been in hand at the start of the setup too - I don't see a way to get an extra bounce with the backwards volute stack - and thus bouncing it back to hand at the end of the combo ought to not be an issue.
Maybe there's some clever convoluted way to make this setup go infinite but I'm not sure I see it.
Edit: Oh, dralnu's makes harmonic apply.
But that's still only 2 archon triggers. It still seems like you need more than that to go infinite though?
Edit: Maybe we can get to a 3rd by hanging a foundry activation on harmonic.
Helix megastage
Resource: Red mana
Lower tier resource: Life
Setup: Spellweaver helix in play with worldfire, divine congregation, and hungry for more exiled.
Transition creation:
- Using some BBM/PB triggers, Put a twinning glass activation, some chromescale triggers, and some riftweaver triggers (with corresponding PB triggers) on the stack
- Flashback hungry for more for R. Trigger helix, play all the sorceries.
- Resolve TYS-divine. Gain many life. Build megastage.
As the megastage can run computations, each copy of divine scales resources by BB.
Transition use:
- Resolve worldfire
- Resolve riftweaver triggers, using PB triggers to retarget to legal targets, reshuffling everything
- Resolve chromescale triggers, putting artifacts to hand
- Resolve twinning glass, playing orrery
- Play mox ruby for R
- Use BBM/PB triggers to re-set up helix and other exiled things
Blue mana can also be amassed through mox saphire.
Life can also be spent to trigger volute without spite for plentiful use of things instants provide (copies, AE-hacks).
At the end of the megastage then R can be spent without worldfire for plentiful life and lower resources.
Edit: However, an issue I've noticed with this setup: how do we get omni into play?
Twinning glass doesn't work, as we don't have a way to put omni in hand. (and using something like Arcanist's Owl looks like it enables pious to be recycled too cheaply.) Replenish doesn't work as it's only able to be cast immediately after worldfire. So it looks like we need to resolve down to the hyperstage transition to sac an archon.
But then we're casting spite. We don't have a way to counter it; cephalid shrine isn't in play (we're having difficulty getting enchantments into play). So somebody has to lose 5 life, but both are at 1.
We can't even afford to lose 5 life if we had it - that would make the hyperstage too expensive.
But giving the opponent life is hard too. We need to give them an arcbonded lifelinker and sac GBK to spite. But it doesn't look like we're able to cast both arcbond and wrong turn in time. Plus, if we lose the nontoken GBK, how do we actually start computations?
Maybe we could add Ivory mask, so that an archon trigger can put that into play to fizzle spite targetting ourself. But that uses a cardslot.
Also it does need 2 archon triggers (as we also need pious) but perhaps archon+harmonic can be used and the spell waiting in the volute trigger for this transition is AE rather than wrong turn. (or simply fated). But then we're losing orrery without a chance to safely donate, so we need to set this up to be able to happen without orrery?
Green mana stage
Resource: Green mana
Setup: Hacked kunesh and many harmonic prodigy in play, groundskeeper/firebrand ranged in play and turned into artifacts. Many gauntlets in play. Forest and Mounatin in grave.
Batch creation: Spend G on groundskeeper for many kunesh-GK triggers. Spend G on firebrand ranger for many kunesh-FR triggers. (Also resolve some in between as per the special-case stage form above)
Resource regain: When an FR resolves after having resolved GK, get many R and a G. Build hyperstage to put the lands back grave.
White mana stage (mislabeled as blue mana stage)
This actually doesn't work for 2 reasons, but is fixable.
Patron of the moon can sacrifice archon too cheaply through offering. I think it can be replaced by Arboreal Grazer.
Dryad arbor can be cloned for too cheap green mana. But it seems like its purpose is just to be donatable for wayfarer, so any colourless manland works (e.g. mutavault).
(Edit: In fact I think it has to be exactly mutavualt. If it had a creature type, it could be hacked, and then opp could activate it to change the type which breaks computation).
Resource: White mana
Setup: Opponent controls several mutavaults. Hacked kunesh and many harmonic prodigy in play, wayfarer and ruin ghost are artifacts. Archaelogical dig in library.
Batch creation: Spend W on weathered wayfarer for many kunesh-WWF triggers. Spend W on ghost for many kunesh-RG triggers.
(Resolve some in between as per special-case stage setup).
Resource regain: After WWF has resolved, dig can be put into play with grazer. Resolving a RG flickers dig for W, and resolving some more can flicker forest for G. (we can resolve half of the RGs for many G). Build G stage, putting dig in library.
Layers
Each resolution of SSA creates a treasure (thus a W)
Each golem trigger creates many SSA copies
Casting SSA creates many golem triggers
Each draw allows one SSA cast
Each zubera death creates many draw triggers
60 zubera deaths are allowed per creature type not used in computation.
Start:
Crypt, Saphire, Dig, Ruby, Shreikhorn, Replenish (Omni+TYS), Infectious inquirery (1 copy + original)
Draw 4, lose 4, opp gets 2 poison.
End: Combat.