2019 Holiday Exchange!
 
A New and Exciting Beginning
 
The End of an Era
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah, Retract seems useful. It doesn't mess with computations since we won't have any artifacts during one.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah, it seems like part of the original problem with Brudiclad. Telchor Engineer still exists, which is that it can turn a damaged creature into Goblin Boom Keg. Seems like the only way around that is to not allow token copies of artifacts.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Sharum the Hegemon goes infinite: When a copy is on the battlefield (such as from Soul Foundry), and the original enters, it can immediately die to the legend rule, and then target itself to bring itself back, and loop. Combined with Panharmonicon this gets infinite mana from the Black Lotus.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Some of our standard stages have had the property of being able to use something both before and after casting one of the stage spells (such as the blue stage in our last one allowing Crushing Canopy to be used before and after the Devious Cover Up is cast before Quasiduplicate was needed) but this idea doesn't seem to be compatible with Bloodbond March based stages.

    Edit: So the possible ways to make stages include:
    - Mana stages; then the hyperstage card basically has to be Woldpurge which makes further stages very difficult.
    - Life stages; then the resetter is Worldfire. Could work though this plan doesn't.
    - Creature token stages, with the hyperstage card being something like Jokulhaups
    -- Mimic Vat doesn't work without Horobi - Bone Shredder didn't work due to this same problem of delaying it
    -- Soul Foundry doesn't give the tokens haste. However, Brudiclad could work, as the previous problem with it involved Mirrorweave, which we're no longer using.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Observation: We don't need Chameleon Blur since the opponent has Platinum Emperion, and we have Invulnerability. We therefore also don't need Leyline of Punishment.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oof, I think the stage goes infinite:

    Start with a bunch of PFEs on the stack.

    Set the Mirrormades to Bloodbond March.
    Use a PFE to put a proctor in the graveyard without using it
    Play Sanctum Plowbeast, get 3 BBM triggers; resolve one.
    Use the proctor and bounce the beast.
    Cycle it for 2 life.
    Resolve the other BBM triggers
    Use another PFEto bounce the beast.

    We're now where we started, but have traded a few PFEs for life.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ok, first lets show we can make as many of our artifacts as we need without them being removed by Dual Nature.
    So first say we have a bunch of Pull From Eternity copies on the stack (or rather Repeated Reverberation triggers for PFE), one Panharmonicon, and Soul Separator in hand.
    We cast Soul Separator, get two copies from Dual Nature (triggering twice). Use a copy, and bounce March of the machines followed by the original [preventing Dual Nature removing the other token as it won't be a creature]. Resolve a PFE, and replay March and Soul Sep. In response to the Dual Nature triggers, use the other token Soul Sep to bounce Dual Nature followed by the soul sep. Then, the net result is 2 token soul seps not created by any Dual Nature. We can repeat this process for as many soul separators as needed.
    Then, use a soul sep to bounce Dual Nature + Panharmonicon, replay both, and in response to triggers use another soul sep to bounce them both; netting token panharmonicons.
    Then we can repeat this process for any other artifacts, and have plenty of spare proctor triggers to move Mirrormades around.
    This process also nets as many copies of other creatures (such as necromancers and vanilla zombies) as we need using spare soul seps.

    The current deck uses Tidal Barracuda, but it would be nice to show that it works with Vedalken Orrerey instead - and we want to make sure we don't lose the orrery during an intermediate step where we need it. Assume that there's already a nontoken orrery and a token one that may have been created by an active DN. First, bounce march + nontoken orrery. Resolve a PFE, then replay them, and in response to DN triggers, bounce DN. It removes the tokens created by it, but then we get fresh orrery tokens afterwards.

    Now, to start a computation, assuming it has already been prepared by casting the instants:
    We first bounce all the nontoken artifacts, bouncing March first so the tokens don't get removed by DN.
    The Mirrormades need to be on Dralnu's Crusade before this point, as they need to have been around when Artificial Evolution was cast.
    We use a Soul Sep to make a Tidal Baracuda, and in response tap another for Desolation Giant. Start the computation, then when it finishes we get flash and can rebuild from just nontokens using the above process.

    In Orrery decks, instead we can put Orrery-DN triggers on the stack, then make a giant.

    PROBLEM: As we need March of the machines on the battlefield to start a computation, it will still be around during it. However, then the opponent's Coat of Arms dies. So, we need to either give it indestructible or prevent damage dealt to it. Note that a spell that gives indestructible is incompatible with Desolation Giant, but Death Pit Offferring works just as well.

    Showing that the stage process works is a little more tricky.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    We have had issues before with Show and Tell allowing hyperstage transitions to be self-contained without consuming any triggers below them. We should ensure that isn't the case here - what does the intended hyperstage transition sequence look like?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I'm in favour of keeping the rules as they currently are, for a few reasons:
    - I see the "maximum damage" and "no infinites" as separate goals, ("Of the decks that cannot deal infinite damage, which one can deal the most?") and in evaluating each one, we cannot make any assumptions whatsoever about the opponent's actions.
    - It feels a bit "cheap" to change the rules of an ongoing challenge in a way that makes it easier for ourselves.
    - In the presence of lines where the opponent could allow us to go infinite, then determining whether the opponent has any available plays that DON'T allow us to go infinite is in general a non-trivial question that may be required in determining deck legality; especially when Turing-completeness is considered. As an extreme and not very realistic example, say you can set up a Turing machine that searches for counterexamples of the Riemann hypothesis, and also give the opponent a way to halt it early. Also imagine that if the machine halts either naturally or due to the opponent's intervention, it allows us to go infinite. Then, the question of whether this situation is legal depends on whether the opponent is able to allow the machine to run forever and make the game a draw; i.e. whether the machine halts; i.e. whether the Riemann hypothesis is true.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The current legality and scoring can be described by finding an upper bound X and a lower bound Y, and proving "It is not possible to deal more than X damage (regardless of what the opponent does), and it *is* possible to deal at least Y damage (regardless of what the opponent does)." Provided these numbers exist, then Y is taken as the score.

    Is the proposed change expressible in a similarly nice way?
    I'm not super comfortable with saying that a deck that casts Wheel of Misfortune "has an upper bound" on the amount of damage it can deal.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Does simply using Grip of Chaos solve the targeting issues?
    Edit: no it doesn't.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Frazzle can counter Army of the Damned without countering BSZ

    How does countering creatures work though? Essence Scatter would be in the graveyard after its first use, and could only be cast be casting a sorcery, which is expensive before the first stage.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    An idea for a mana layer is to use an MDFC; as then it requires the use of a land drop and returning the card to hand.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    With 6 clocks we still only need to update the number of vanilla creatures (of varying types) and can keep a fixed number of necromancers:
    Given a particular fixed UTM (in which the input tape can vary), it translates to a tag system with fixed production rules (where the initial string can vary), which translates to a spiral rise program with d and m fixed (where a and n vary; a only varying by a multiple of m) which translates to a 6-clock TWM program with fixed zeroing triggers (where initial waterclock values can vary).

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I went ahead and finished the formal proof: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Spiral_Rise
    So now we can be completely certain that 6 Dralnu's Crusades is enough.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.