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  • posted a message on [Discussion] Standard Dredge
    In fact, I looked on the MTGO results for the past week and found that all the other lists showing up online in the results have been similar (-2 DRS, -1 Elvish, -1 Sylvan, +4 Lotleth, +1 Golari Guildgate).

    Desolutionist's 6th place list in 3/16 Premier Event

    Glavian's 3-1 list in a Daily on 3/15

    And Demannic once again, 3-1 in a Standard Daily on 3/13

    Also, compared to Blaine's list a few pages back, a 3rd Shadowborn Demon is cut for the extra land. It makes sense to add a guildgate, considering that this build cuts 3 of 8 one-drops.

    Also notably absent from the maindeck of all of these builds is Whip of Erebos.

    A hypothesis: this shift in builds reflects the influence of Satyr Wayfinder. The lands it grabs help smooth out the mana and make the mana creatures less necessary, and makes having an extra land beneficial. Cutting down on Deathrite Shaman actually does make some sense to me, too: while one is terrific, drawing two is awkward, and drawing three is downright terrible.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Discussion] Standard Dredge
    Quote from zenzog
    http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpba14/welcome#0

    GB threshold has made it to the top 16 of a GP. Notable characteristics of the deck:

    • 20 lands instead of 19
    • -2 Deathrite Shaman, -1 Elvish Mystic, -1 Sylvan Caryatid, -1 Commune with the Gods
    • +4 Lotleth Troll
    • Mistcutter Hydra in the board instead of Skylasher
    • Single Whip of Erebos as only source of lifegain post board

    I think going down to 3 Sylvan Caryatids is not great-- it's key for the RW burn matchup. The RW burn match is pretty miserable... they can disrupt our mana and bolt us at the same time with searing blood. You have to play pretty carefully to limit the damage that card can do to you. So maybe going up to 20 lands and cutting the dorks isn't such a bad idea?
    I also think Mistcutter is extremely subpar compared to Skylasher.
    Have people not been running into enough Bile Blights that Lotleth Troll can make it back into the deck?


    Isn't Lotleth Troll good in the RW matchup, too, as long as you play with it correctly?

    It's interesting that Demannic's maindeck above, which came in second in the MTGO Premier Event on March 9th, is very similar: -2 Deathrite, -1 Elvish, -1 Sylvan, +1 Land, +4 Lotleth. The key difference is that Demannic has 4 Herald and 4 Commune, while Matias cut a Herald and a Commune for 2 Ultimate Price.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Discussion] Standard Dredge
    Quote from Xunin
    Forgive me for asking but I don't see how Caryathid is necessary in this deck? What are you ramping into?

    Our 4 mana spells are Jarad, Bestowed nighthowler and Whip. None of which does really anything on T3.

    on T2 I much rather cast Satyr Wayfinder to setup graveyard or find mana, or grisly salvage.

    Similarly, what does elvish mystic do?

    I'm also not feeling very confident in not running any kill/utility spells (not counting demon) pre-board and I'm thinking of playing a combination of abrupt decays and/or golgari charm (domri, courser, dsphere, anything aggro-related) but I don't know if this pushes the deck into being more rock-oriented. It also dilutes the creature count. Speaking of which, ss there sweet spot that is generally agreed upon?


    Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid let you play 19 lands, which lets you run a lot more creatures, which makes Nighthowler and Jarad incredibly powerful cards.

    Most builds are running a little over half creatures -- 33 is the standard amount, I believe, but builds with Whip or other maindeck instants sometimes run 31-30.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Discussion] Standard Dredge
    Some discussion of my build above:

    If you compare my build to the solid aggro one that Blaine posted, the differences are:
    -4 Nemesis of Mortals
    -3 Herald of Torment
    -1 Nighthowler
    -1 Shadowborn Demon
    -1 Deathrite Shaman

    +2 Whip of Erebos
    +3 Odunos River Trawler
    +2 Prophet of Kruphix
    +1 Erebos, God of the Dead
    +1 Phenax, God of Deception
    +1 Courser of Kruphix

    In other words, you give up some of the aggressive cards (namely Herald and Nemesis) for a slower value package. I definitely understand why people have had mixed feelings about Whip in builds like the one above. In this deck, however, Whip fits in a lot more, primarily because of Odunos River Trawler and Prophet of Kruphix. Odunos actually gives you a way to reliably get card advantage with Whip, as whipping back Odunos lets you bring back Nighthowler and the cards from the toolbox package, while Prophet of Kruphix lets you whip things back while continuing to advance the board. In other words, Odunos makes Whip actually good against control decks. (Another neat interaction is that you can whip back Satyr Wayfinders in order to find Odunos and/or targets for Odunos.)

    Having Odunos and Whip makes me okay with shaving copies of Herald of Torment and Nighthowler (as well as Shadowborn Demon), though here Herald is obviously serving a slightly different purpose (I rarely play turn 3 Heralds).

    As far as matchups, my build crushes pretty much every control deck in the format except blue/white. The replacement of Nemesis of Mortals for other more expensive cards likely makes the deck squishier to aggro, although maindeck Whip obviously helps there. The monoblack match-up is pretty amazing for me most of the time, though a turn 2 Pack Rat can still sometimes cause problems. I think monoblue devotion is still a pretty tough matchup, but I don't really play against it too often.

    The biggest strength of this deck is in its flexibility. Whip, Odunos, Prophet, and the toolbox let you do incredibly degenerate things that other decks can't deal with. Cards like Phenax let me mill out almost my entire deck, such that I routinely kill opponents by sac'ing 20 power creatures to Jarad (your end step, sac two lands and bring back Jarad, play Jarad, untap for my turn and kill you). Opponents can close off one route to victory, and I'll just open up another. This deck can beat opposing Whips, overwhelming card advantage, active Elspeths, etc. -- basically, the stuff this deck can do is just more powerful than most of the "big" stuff you can do in this format. (Another example: green/red monsters is a great matchup.)

    tl;dr: This build, and the way it uses Whip, Odunos, and Prophet, allows it to crush most midrange decks and random control decks, but it is weak to the most dedicated control decks (e.g., u/w) and the most dedicated aggro decks.

    One more thing: this deck is an absolute blast to play. It's very skill-intensive, because you have so many options, but the payoff is definitely worth it.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Discussion] Standard Dredge
    I've been playtesting a slower build over the last few weeks that focuses more heavily on Whip of Erebos and using the card selection that the enablers provide to create a "toolbox"-style build. This is where I'm at right now, though the build is definitely still in flux (there are a lot of levers to tweak in this style build). The fact that Deathrite Shaman and Sylvan Caryatid provide access to all 5 colors also provides a lot of options.



    Here are a few card-specific notes:
    Prophet of Kruphix is honestly insane here. It gives you enough mana to whip cards back while playing creatures on your opponent's turn, it gives you an insane amount of flexibility, nets you free cards in combat, lets you bestow at instant speed--really, just try it out. I'd argue this deck can use it better than any other deck I've seen in the format. I'd argue that it should at least be tested in any slower version of the deck.

    Phenax provides a huge amount of self-milling, synergizes well with Jarad and Nighthowler to build your GY big enough for Jarad to be lethal, and can provide a win condition itself vs. lifegain and other strange situations. It's particularly obscene with Prophet of Kruphix. I honestly might even want 2 in the main.

    Whip of Erebos really lets you win games you have absolutely no business winning, and it's especially potent in this deck because Odunos River Trawler gets back Nighthowler (potentially twice!) when whipped back.

    Until a couple days ago I was running 4 Deathrite Shaman, 3 Elvish Mystic, and 18 lands, but I added another land and Elvish Mystic in order to increase the number of keepable 1 land hands (as I often get hands with 1 land and 4 2-mana cards, which is such a sketchy keep with so few lands). I figured I needed more color fixing, too, if I'm cutting a Deathrite, so I added some shocklands that produce blue (mainly because the Scry lands can't be sacrificed to Jarad, which is really important). I might go reverse those changes.

    Anyway, I understand this is a really different direction for the deck, and the sideboard in particular has a lot of eyebrow-raisers (several of which used to be in the maindeck, but I've gradually been streamlining the deck). So, if you have any questions/cries of "wtf?!" I'd be happy to answer them.

    Gruul Ragebeast is insane Whipped back or hardcast (which is actually possible with all the ramp), as is Sire of Insanity (against aggro and control, respectively). There are some cards I had been testing for the toolbox -- Nylea and Thassa, in particular -- but I decided they weren't good enough as just Enchantments that almost never became creatures. (Erebos can become a creature much more reliably.)
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Grixis Mill
    Well, there's also the fact that a) it's hard on your mana and b) Scry 1 is the nuts awesome sweetness. But you have clearly played a lot with this deck. I'm just saying that another way to deal with the mana problems you were having is to reduce your reliance on red as much as possible.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Grixis Mill
    I think Dissolve is better than Counterflux 95% of the time, yeah?
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Grixis Mill
    Smelt is cheaper than Shattering Blow, FWIW.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Nivmagus Spellslinging
    In addition to providing more consistentcy, I like the Rakdos Cackler and the Gore-House Chainwalker because they represent creatures you can play out before your Pyromancer to try to bait the removal of more controllish decks. I also find that you can "trick" opponents more easily into making bad plays by making them think you are playing a typical aggro deck, allowing you to blow them out with combat tricks and that sort of thing.

    Oh, one more comment about Mizzium Skin - overloaded it says you from getting wrathed by Golgari Charm or Electrickery (Dispel saves you from that, too, but at least Mizzium Skin can provide similar backup, albeit for 1 more mana).
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Nivmagus Spellslinging
    Okay, here's the decklist:



    In this build, I have Dynacharge and Weapon Surge, which are incredibly good with hordes of tokens. Dynacharge in particular can win games out of nowhere, and I would strongly recommend it. While overloading these spells doesn't trigger Akroan Crusader, they still do a lot of damage, and they can also be exiled for counters on Nivmagus Elemental.

    Another big difference between my build and yours is the absence of Nivix Cyclops and addition of the generally solid aggro cards. My build is designed to a) be able to run off of 2 lands most of the time, allowing me to cut down to 18 lands, and b) to reduce the number of blue cards as much as possible. This build is effectively splashing blue for Hidden Strings, Mizzium Skin, and some other sideboard options. That's why I am only running 2 cards that cost 3 mana in the maindeck.

    I think this deck wants to be an all-in combo-aggro type deck, and the 3 mana cards like Nivix Cyclops can be too slow. I'm running 2x Guttersnipe because it generally only deals 1-3 less damage than Nivix Cyclops over the course of the game assuming you can attack unblocked, and in exchange it can deal damage directly to your opponent (it also improves the mana base by only costing red).

    The reason I'm playing 4x Rakdos Cackler and 4x Gore-House Chainwalker is to give the deck a little more consistency. We already have 14 creatures that depend on having instants and sorceries in our hand, so I think it's good to have some creatures that can deal damage even if we don't have any in our hand. Thoughtseize lets opponents really mess with the synergistic aspects of our deck, and by playing a bunch of solid aggro cards we lessen the impact of Thoughtseize. Additionally, people are playing a LOT of removal right now, and so if you only have 16 creatures it's entirely possible for opponents to kill every creature you play and leave a bunch of combat tricks stranded in your hand.

    As for the sideboard, which is still a work in progress:
    2x Hammer of Purphoros - This is against Esper, and other controllish decks, as it gives them fits and makes us more resistant to wrath. (It also makes Young Pyromancer a lot better, and I had this in the main for a while instead of Guttersnipe, but I put it in the SB because some decks can easily handle a 3/3 haste creature a turn with no sweat).
    2x Mizzium Skin - comes in against control decks
    2x Skullcrack - comes in for the lightning strike against Sphinx's Rev and monoblack.
    2x Triton Tactics - It's good against Anger of the Gods and some heavy creature matchups, and it's basically strictly better than Mizzium Skin against monored.
    2x Voyage's End - against Master of Waves (monoblue is the worst matchup for this deck) and ramp
    2x Smelt - pretty much exclusively for Whip of Erebos, which I found basically impossible to beat.
    1x Pithing Needle - This is for Jace, Architect of Thought.
    1x Weapon Surge and 1x Coordinated Assault - For creature heavy matchups, like Green/white -- basically any matchup with a lot of creature combat.

    I'm trying Skullcrack as a replacement for Dispel, as it's good against Sphinx's Revelation but it also is a more proactive card.
    Other cards I might want to try: Runner's Bane vs. Boros Reckoner, which really gives this deck fits.
    Rapid Hybridization instead of the Voyage's End
    More Pithing Needles

    And I could see taking out either the Triton Tactics or extra copies of Weapon Surge & Coordinated Assault. Triton Tactics is just sooo gooood sometimes. The problem with sideboarding with a deck like this is that there aren't too many cards that can be taken out. I tend to take out Nivmagus Elemental vs. decks with a lot of non-damage based removal, as it's very weak to that, but other than that there aren't too many other places to cut, so it's best to have cards that fulfill the same purpose but slightly better against some decks (like Triton Tactics for Mizzium Skin or Skullcrack for Lightning Strike).
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Nivmagus Spellslinging
    Quote from megatog201
    I'd suggest skins in the SB and put Dispel main. The reasons are this. The only noninstant removal skins are better at stopping is morters. Every other removal that skins can stop is at instant speed. Dispel stops other things aswell. Such as advent, counters, card draw, burn pointed at you, etc.
    Yes skins gives a little in the butt, but is turning all your tokens into 1/2s really that powerful?

    Syncopate is another great main option. Gives you choices. You have mana left over. You can counter the card or just pay U and synco for the magus exile. I've done that plent against lightning strike and the such.


    Mizzium Skin is also better against Abrupt Decay and Dreadbore. It also makes tokens with Akroan Crusader, and it can be exiled to Nivmagus Elemental whenever. I run 2 Skin main and then 2 more in the SB with 2 Dispel, too. Dispel is good, especially against Esper, as it counters Rev, but Skin is more synergistic with the deck and just as good.

    The other thing to recognize is that this is not a control deck, and 1 for 1ing your opponent with Dispel is not really what you want to be doing. Skin is important because it protects the key combo cards of the deck against everything but wrath while still acting synergistically with the deck.

    Anyway, Saoshyant, I've been playtesting a very similar deck on MTGO for a few weeks now and I'm taking it to an FNM tonight. I'll post my list, but if you look through my post history you will see me talking about the deck a lot.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Brad Nelson's Mono-Red at the MaxPoint Championship
    Ross specifically said the two drop heavy version was a metagame call vs. a lot of hate for x/1s. Sooo I think it's wrong to view the newer version as the "improved" version.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Brad Nelson's Mono-Red at the MaxPoint Championship
    Quote from BobMcFail
    I might try and splash white for Legion's Iniative and Etheral Armor. Those do seem awesome with the swarm strategy and especially with Akroan Crusader. Boros Charm is also one good sideboard card and not to forget Chained to the Rocks could be big against mono blue. What do you guys think?


    Boros Charm seems like a better maindeck card than Legion's Initiative. It fills a similar role and is more flexible. Legion's Initiative feels more like a *win more* card, and its anti-wrath function almost certainly wouldn't come on until it was too late.

    Also, it's really amusing that Ross was on SCG Open feature match coverage twice, both times against monoblue devotion, losing both matches. He was a 2-0 for the first one and 6-1 for the second one.

    The matchup is just so bad, I don't even think there's anything to do about it. It just doesn't seem like there's any real "silver bullet" sideboard cards that really increase the match % significantly. As discussed in the commentary, Electrickery doesn't even really solve the problem, as they are still left with a 2/1 pro red guy, and a lot of the creatures in the devotion deck don't die to it. Skullcrack stopping the damage prevention from pro red works but it's also easy to play around. I'd be interested to hear about his sideboarding vs. monoblue: Skullcrack, Electrickery, and Shock all seem potentially good in the matchup.

    Dealing with Master of Waves isn't even really enough, because they still have Tidebinder Mage and a bunch of creatures that can block effectively.

    The matchup doesn't even get that worse after SB'ing, it's just so bad to begin with.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Brad Nelson's Mono-Red at the MaxPoint Championship
    Quote from Planeswalker420
    Love this deck. It's awesome when synergy can trump card strength and let you play a bunch of wild and generally Limited-only cards like Akroan Crusader and Dragon Mantle.

    I wouldn't even consider a splash here. It makes the mana worse, and definitely takes some of the potency off of Dragon Mantle. Keep this baby mono-Red.


    Oh, I think a splash only makes sense if you are going to add Young Pyromancer. Builds with Dragon Mantle and Madcap Skills certainly should be monored.

    Either way, the monored version is probably more powerful, but casting Hidden Strings for 4+ tokens is undoubtedly a blast.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Brad Nelson's Mono-Red at the MaxPoint Championship
    Quote from CaptElephant
    It's funny, I made a nearly identical deck on MTGO when Theros first released. The theme was "one drop mono red" and the only difference was no Arena Athlete or Ash Zealot, a little more burn, and a few more mountains.

    I don't think I ever won a game. It seemed terrible so I quickly abandoned it. I never would have guessed that a few tweaks (and probably a better pilot than me) could have made it a competitive deck.

    MtG never stops surprising me.


    Going down to 17 lands does make the deck a lot better. I built a similar deck, and it was terrible, but once I cut down the number of lands after seeing Tom Ross' list, it became a lot better.

    Quote from RedKid43
    Some thoughts on this deck, after playing with it last night:

    -A white splash may be in our best interests to check out. Boros Charm screams potential. 2 of the modes are live in our deck (4 damage, Indestructible) as a way to gain reach. We can stave off Verdict and (more importantly) Anger of the Gods. It also gives us 1 drops like Boros Elite and Soldier of the Pantheon. Soldier can simply walk right past Weird/Smiter and Boros Elite can get rather large quick thanks to Crusader tokens.

    -Mugging has been better than expected. It helps clear the way for attacks early and can get by brick walls like Ox, Weird with ease. Not going to the dome is a bit sad though.

    -I think BTE in Brad's list is greedy. Without it, it feels fine and I really don't miss having it. Honestly, having another hastey body is slightly more appealing than over committing with BTE.

    -Mizzium Mortars in the board was MVP. They never saw it coming. I feel like 18 lands with Mortars is about right.


    I think this deck can't stomach enough ETBT lands to play this many white cards. That said, I think *splashing* white for Boros Charm is worth checking out. Note that actually all 3 modes are useful in this deck -- the double strike mode could certainly do more than 4 damage in this deck. Running 4x Sacred Foundry and running a small number of Plains might be worthwhile. I'm not sure what you would cut for Boros Charm, though.

    I've been working on a deck that's somewhat similar, splashing blue primarily for Hidden Strings and playing Young Pyromancer. (The Izzet Guildgates should be Steam Vents, but I'm unemployed and penniless at the moment.)

    I don't have the $$$ for the mana base, but if I did, I'd be testing this: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/wur-tokens-1/
    Posted in: Standard Archives
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