This is exactly how I have felt for a while now. I've always been a big flavour/story guy, not just in Magic but in general. And I would love to be able to be invested in Magic story, but over recent years they've made it completely impossible to do so.Quote from Tiro of Meletis »That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure.
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ArixOrdragc posted a message on No story/lore for TherosPosted in: The Rumor Mill -
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Tiro of Meletis posted a message on No story/lore for TherosSheep using hunger to justify the wolf’s behavior.Posted in: The Rumor Mill
Corporate greed should never be an excuse to compromise customer loyalty and enfranchisement. “That’s just the way it is” or “that’s how we’ve always done it” are dangerous suggestions. If corporate demand strained creative to outsource its material, as I suspect, utilizing them for product development over investment into the brand (lore) to the point that Theros was compromised, then there’s a lot more at stake for them in the long term.
“It’s a card game” from people taking time to post on this forum is rich irony. There is no “it’s fiction” or “it’s a game.” There is only passion.
That said. I’ve likely had too much of that for MTG and with the loss of Theros, I’m retiring as a Vorthos. To the relief and pleasure of some I’m sure. -
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WizardMN posted a message on No story/lore for TherosPosted in: The Rumor Mill
The problem with that line of thinking is that skipping a few months is not what is happening. Everyone has their favorite settings or their favorite stories, or whatever. Magic is somewhat unique with that. While some of the cast is often pulled from a select few, the stories, and settings, themselves are relatively independent of everything else. That means that the lore of Innistrad is wholly different to that of Ravnica or Eldraine or Theros. Skipping a few months means skipping the story altogether. At best, this would mean that the story gets continued in a better format in 6 years.Quote from FlossedBeaver »I've been waiting almost a decade for the last Kingkiller book, surely skipping a few months of supplemental material for a card game doesn't warrant so many tears.
For those that love the lore there is an understanding that exploring it further for each setting only comes about once or twice a decade. People aren't necessarily upset that there is no story (though some might be). People are upset that there is no story *for Theros*. This is a setting that people enjoy, that people have invested themselves into learning and knowing about, and who looked forward to the release of this set as a return to the lore so we could know more about it.
With Ravnica getting the attention it did and Eldraine at least getting an eBook (if I understand some of the points so far), it feels like a slap in the face for a plane like Theros, based on Ancient Greece, which has a ton of lore behind it, to be pushed off to the wayside and skipped over. People want these stories to be continued, fleshed out, or finalized and waiting for years for that to happen to then learn at the last minute that they won't get any sort of novel or eBook is frustrating.
It doesn't mean that there aren't valid concerns or criticisms being made by the people that care about the story or that their outcry isn't valid just because this is for a card game. -
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Tiro of Meletis posted a message on [THB] Mothership 12/18 — Theme Booster Exclusive RaresPosted in: The Rumor Mill
I love this idea! An enchantment or saga that does this would be brilliant. Assuming a saga, the other mode could be a whelming wave effect. But I do agree, the cost reduction is most welcome.Quote from Thalassoporos »
All I want for her to do, or her saga to do, is, "Sea Serpents, Octopuses, Krakens, and Leviathans cost X less to play. Where X is your devotion to blue."Quote from Tiro of Meletis »
Keep singing my song sista yaaaasQuote from Creedmoor »Big fan of the Sea Serpent. I'm really hoping that this set delivers with more Sea Monsters. My Arixmethes deck is honestly starving and needs some more fatties. I wouldn't mind getting another Simic legendary Kraken to up the deck's power level as well.
I hope we get a saga about Arixmethes sinking with an effect that supports sea monsters. Another whelming wave variant would be amazing too. Frankly anything. And I’d love more Theros themed krakens. They always have unique effects and cool Greek designs and themes -
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Mike G posted a message on Ravnica Allegiance (RNA) and War of the Spark (WAR) General DiscussionPosted in: Magic StorylineQuote from Thalassoporos »
If it says anything, the popularity contest they had on twitter and facebook and instagram shows that people really do prefer the Gatewatch characters over most other characters. The only notable exceptions were Sorin, Ugin, and The Wanderer. Sorin beat his competition every time with majority vote except when it came to Liliana. Ugin also followed a similar trend to Sorin and also only lost to Liliana. The Wanderer while beat by Nissa on facebook actually managed to stalemate the votes on a 50%/50% on twitter, she is also the only new walker from WAR who managed to beat Huatli who is an established character.Quote from Onering »Quote from Xeruh »Quote from Mike G »I was hoping this story would be the end of the Gatewatch era of Magic, but that ending with all the oaths caused me more despair than 65 chapters of Bolas sitting on his throne killing scores of nameless people... uh... more in my sig.
If you thought that then you simply weren't paying attention. This was the end of Bolas, not the Gatewatch. The Gatewatch is very successful, until it ceases to be well liked don't expect it to go away.
Except it isn't definitely the end of Bolas, they put him on ice. They brought him back once before from what we thought was actually dead, so explicitly not killing him off all but ensures he will return.
I also wonder how popular the gatewatch actually is. For people who care about the story I mean. There are plenty of people who like the cards but don't know much about the story.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5GCek4XoAAGO9K?format=jpg&name=medium
People generally gravitate to the characters you push most.
Let me give you an example. This guy is hated. Absolutely loathed. He is WWE's "main character", of sorts. Fans don't like him. However, because the organization refuses to move him from main character position, promotes him the most and gives him all the cool moments, he's by far the best merchandise seller.
It's the mere exposure effect. The people you are most familiar with are the ones you like most. -
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Perkunas687 posted a message on Ravnica Allegiance (RNA) and War of the Spark (WAR) General DiscussionSo I read the whole book yesterday, and I have some thoughts which some may find disagreeable. I’m going to attempt to put them under a spoiler thing:Posted in: Magic Storyline
If I had to give a rating “x/10,” I would give 3/10. I’m not a Bolas fanboy, so the rating isn’t coming from that. The rating also only has partial relevance to my earlier postings about stakes, but takes more than ‘deaths’ into account.
1) For an end of the Bolas arc, Nicol Bolas did remarkably little. True, I read this pretty quickly, but I took a lot of screenshots as I was reading which back up my general conclusion here. Bolas was presented as far more dangerous, far more powerful, and far more . . . Nicol Bolas-y in the Amonkhet short stories than he did here. 85% of the time that he was mentioned in War of the Spark, he was described as sitting around and smiling. I can’t say my memory is perfect on this next score, but apart from blasting away Oketra and protecting Liliana for a few seconds by tumbling some buildings, did he do anything substantial before being defeated? I can’t think of anything. He never went toe-to-toe with any walker that I can recall (apart from invisible Ugin when he was desparked). And as the Elder Spell progressed, we are told Bolas is sucking in the odd spark here or there into his gem. Yet we see no god-like Bolas at any point. We don’t see astonishing power that outshines anything he did in the beginning of the story, or in any other story. Bolas simply didn’t feel like a godly threat. How could this happen? He is presented as far more impressive and powerful in the cards than in this story. Very disappointing.
2) I had a general “What the hell?” reaction to many things, including:
- The Beacon. Ral says “[N]either the dragon nor his minions will be able to shut it off. Hell, *I* can’t even shut it off.” They repeat this over and over in the story. But wow, later on in the story, we figure out that we can just cut the power to the Beacon. What an ingenious flaw!
- We are set up in Ixalan, after the friendship/love story between Jace and Vraska, with Jace blocking away Vraska’s memories of him so that they could unlock their alliance when Bolas least expected it. Instead, in this book . . . a kraul telepath unlocked Vraska’s memories long before Bolas’ arrival, but then she . . . went ahead and killed people and Isperia anyway, because she was angry? What? Her whole relationship with Bolas and her actions are so convoluted now that her part in the story was just nonsensical.
- Bolas has an Eternal army created to invade Ravnica, but then: “Eternals, despite their years of training on Amonkhet, stood little chance with their limited free will and limited agency against these Planeswalkers.” What? The Eternals fought with some semblance of free will and agency on Amonkhet. They weren’t exactly marching morons. They also exhibited a lot of their previous skill in combat and killing. Yet . . . Bolas makes them the droids from the Star Wars prequels that need a command ship (Liliana) to do anything? Nonsensical. In War of the Spark they’re just automatons, plodding around instead of being written as truly terrifying. What a lost opportunity.
- The Eternals trained all their lives to be the most dangerous warriors Bolas could bring to bear on Ravnica. Yet throughout the story, almost every named person is killing them easily. They’re being melted, shattered, stabbed (in their eyes? I lost count how many times the author had Eternals stabbed in their eyes, by nobodies too. How do they even have eyes???), chained, on and on. Neheb, the cream of the crop? Easily beheaded. You never really feel like the Eternals are dangerous (but they're slaughtering people! Yes, but they're being slaughtered en masse, too), and that could be because of the writing style. I might address this again later, but the writer seemed to have written a long outline first, and then just added details later. There was a lot of movement in the story without a lot of meat on the bones. You would think that Neheb would have a moment of fear-inducing violence. Nope: Samut jumps on his back and cuts off his head, easily.
- Planeswalkers throughout the story make strange observations. Ral at one point is like, “That leonin Ajani is likely from Alara.” What? There are several, at least, planes with leonins. Teyo also seems to be the writer’s mouthpiece, and the writer mentions almost all the named walker cards throughout the story, almost in passing, like he was crossing names off a list to make sure they made an appearance. (Tibalt leading forces in battle? Doesn’t make sense, but sure.) And apparently Samut knows the name of every Eternal she kills? What? Also, I think it's Teyo near the end who reflects that it was hard to feel a certain way for all the unnamed walkers who died. It's almost like the writer knows we're thinking the same thing.
- I may have been a fool, but weren’t we set up to believe that five of the guilds were being led by five walkers loyal to Bolas, or working indirectly for Bolas? Yet when the story starts, there’s only one walker working with Bolas, directly or indirectly: Dovin. Domri doesn’t appear to be working with Bolas until he watches the Selesnya elemental get torn apart by the god-eternals. Until that point, he was fighting and killing Eternals. Then he ‘woo hoo’ed and went over to Bolas, and was promptly killed. What? What happened to the Raze Boar set-up? What happened to what I felt was the set-up of Domri working with Bolas from the start and then getting betrayed? What? Ral and Kaya are not with Bolas, and Vraska is on Ixalan for half the book.
- The Beacon doesn’t force a planeswalk, it just strongly suggests it. How did Sorin free himself from the wall on Innistrad? We’ll never know. Why didn’t he free himself before this battle? No idea. Obviously he chose to planeswalk to Ravnica, which means he could have planeswalked from the wall any time, which makes that whole part of the Innistrad story meaningless. At most, we are told Sorin and Nahiri are fighting on rooftops. That’s it. What a waste of a story set-up.
- So, nothing biological can pass through the Planar Bridge . . . except for planeswalkers. What? This was another point they hammered ever since the Planar Bridge was made. Yet, in this story, Ob Nixilis, Dack, Karn, and Samut just walk/fly through the portal into Amonkhet. The explanation is that their sparks somehow protect them. Then somehow, for some reason, Sarkhan Vol is on Amonkhet and helped Hazoret restore the Hekma shield (didn’t that take more than one weak god to maintain?). And feel free to inform me otherwise, since I could be wrong, but when did Sarkhan and Karn ever meet?: ‘“Sarkhan Vol.” The golem didn’t sound particularly pleased to see this Vol again. Sarkhan Vol’s attitude toward Karn seemed no more welcoming. “Karn.” Then he turned to the demon and with even less warmth said, “Nixilis.” Ob Nixilis eyed the newcomer with suspicion, “What brought you here?” “I had word – from . . . Goldmane . . . . ”’ Suddenly all these walkers know each other? I may be wrong, and if I am, I will be humbled and thankful for the education.
- People are walking all over the city to recruit guilds to the fight, ***while people are being hunted and slaughtered***. This seemed to be a rejection of reality to me. The city is being attacked and people are being killed, yet we have the heroes mosying to different guilds to try to convince them to take up arms. There is so little sense of urgency!
- Can we talk about the fact that Jace knew a 9-word spell to deactivate the Immortal Sun, because he somehow pulled it from Azor’s head on Ixalan? In the story, they turn *off* the Immortal Sun, then turn it back *on*, which, obviously, no one else would be able to figure out (*cough* Bolas-if-he-was-trapped *cough*). The Immortal Sun also gives god-like power to the one who stands on it, yet . . . neither Dovin nor Bolas stand on it. It just rests on top of an Azorious citadel. Then Chandra, Saheeli, and Lavinia (I think) face down Dovin and hundreds of his thopters, and *survive.* Then Dovin gets ninja stars thrown into his eyes by Lazav. Where was Chandra’s Triumph? Never happened in the story. Dovin escapes, blind, and ‘walks away. And ***no one uses the Immortal Sun against Bolas.***
- Bolas setting up the story of the Blackblade in order to trick the Gatewatch into directing all their attention to it as the weapon to beat him. Possible, but man, did it make my head shake. Bolas doesn’t even brag about the steps he took to make it unable to ever kill an Elder Dragon again (it killed an eternalized god and Elder Demon, but shrug).
- Throughout the story, the writer keeps pointing out that Gideon can’t share his invulnerability and must stand in the way of danger so that he takes the hits. But then, Gideon *somehow* gives his invulnerability to Liliana and takes her curse. And somehow that invulnerability immediately starts reconstituting Liliana, where never before did it ever heal (it was just a full-body barrier of light). That, too, was just head-shaking all around.
- The Immortal Sun was still (re)activated when Gideon died. Yet he has a vision of Theros. Does he truly depart to Theros? This should be impossible. Does he just imagine it? That would make more sense, but we don’t know for sure, so it’s just nice and confusing at the same time.
- The whole thing with Hazoret’s spear piercing the God Bolas, and him being unable to dissolve it despite being a God Bolas because he had been the one who created it, was so, so ridiculous to the point of upsetting me.
- Another favorite: Bolas asks Ugin how Ugin managed to get past the safeguards on the Meditation Plane that Bolas had put up. They must have been considerable, considering Bolas created them. Ugin’s response? “Oh, Sarkhan helped me, because you made him angry.” What? No other explanation.
- The Spirit Gem that Bolas has been carrying around was a piece of Ugin? What? What kind of hand-wavy nonsense is this?
- Ugin rubs it in to Bolas that Bolas didn’t expect Hazoret’s spear to be dangerous to him. But no one knew Hazoret would give her spear to Samut and the good guys, or that it would get into the paws of Niv-Mizzet. So what the hell is he bragging about? Sarkhan didn’t really convince Hazoret to give the spear, as Ugin implies. I quote: Sarkhan: ”I came to Amonkhet with the hope of finding something on this plane that could defeat its former God-Pharaoh.” Hazoret: “Unfortunately, We know of nothing here that can defeat Nicol Bolas.” Sarkhan: “Perhaps your spear?” Hazoret: “Perhaps, though it is unlikely, as it was his creation.” No one knew for sure that the spear would be of any use! And it would take four of them to lift it!
3) Four or five years ago, in these forums, I had put forth the idea that Bolas might try to harvest planeswalker sparks to make himself a God again. It started some heated debates, but the end result is this story clearly shows that the mere spark provides Bolas with more power (how much more? Very ill-defined. We never see super-powered Bolas do anything really impressive). But are the sparks also one’s connection to Magic? When Bolas is harvested by Bontu, all the sparks he had absorbed, including his own, are pulled out and then they dissipate. On the Meditation Plane, Ugin tells Bolas he is no longer long-lived because he is spark-less, and then we find out Bolas is also Magic-less. But Nixilis lost his spark, no? As did Teferi. They both continued to be able to use Magic though. Since this book is officially canon, what impact does this have on the past stories of walkers losing their sparks? Is your tie to Magic a result of your spark? If not, how did Bolas lose all his powers in addition to his ability to planeswalk? Is the spark also the source of Bolas’ long life? I always thought that was a result of him being an Elder Dragon. None of this is ever explained, but it’s all canon.
4) It honestly felt like the writer wrote the story before being told by Wizards which planeswalkers would be involved in the story. It reads like an outline that is only later fleshed out. Planeswalkers are mentioned throughout the story almost in passing, a lot like the writer was told to make sure they pop up somewhere. We have Tibalt leading fighters into battle, which is crazy. We have Angrath trash-talking the Gatewatch even though he only just now found out about the Gatewatch and Bolas, and has no idea of their history. We have strange conversations and strange information about various walkers. I honestly would not be surprised if the first draft of the story simply had blank spaces for the names as placeholders until the writer knew who Wizards wanted him to put in there. It also feels like there was very little literary meat on the bones. I rarely can read through 363 pages in one day, especially on a work day, but there was so little juiciness to the story that it took me no time at all to finish it. It seemed like the reading grade level was pretty low.
Final Thoughts:
This story did not do justice to the conclusion of Bolas’ story arc. We’ve been led up to this moment with so much hype, and all the action takes place in less than a day. Medieval battles took longer to sort themselves out. Bolas barely does anything of note, and all his best laid plans have immediate solutions (cut the power to the Beacon, say the magic words to turn off the Immortal Sun, walk through the portal the close it from the other side, stab Bolas with a spear). How is this anything other than ridiculous? Again, I’m not a Bolas fanboy. I’m not coming at this from the perspective of someone who lives and breathes Bolas. I think, as an objective matter, this is a particularly big dud. Not well-written, way too many strange plot points or throwing out of plot points. Honestly, the story told in the cards is way better. Very disappointing.
I had a lot of other points I wanted to make, but between yesterday and today, I’ve forgotten them.
Sorry for the wall of text.
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https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Evergreen#Current_evergreen_keywords
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Which is why I bet they didn't can the ebook for Eldraine. They want to appear strong in their 4th quarter. Which is also why they are letting their 1st quarter look weaker as a result as its not as important to investors and they know this. So they see Theros likely as an acceptable causality.
I don't agree with their practice, but it makes the most sense.