MTG Salvation

Yeah if we could get it for free, sure, but its sandwiched between two better combos, so it wouldn't affect the approximation? we want as many of our combos as possible to be below the hyperstage transition, instead of above it.

basically the structure was:
BB
Stage
transition/hyperstage
Stage
layers (7?)

which was approximated to something like BB_w^2+w+7(x)

Compared to:
BB
Transition/hyperstage
stage
layers (>8, probably)

which would be something like BB_w^2+w+8(x) right?

I might be wrong though, these structures are complicated.


(Also we'd still get several layers worth of BB calcs every time, as each copy of Starlight gives us more and more life.)

Edit: and also, since our opponents life is a dead resource in my current outline, perhaps there's a way to make the life totals into a stage?


Edit: Hmm, thinking about it more, I'm second guessing myself. We might need that stage to make the hyperstage powerful enough or its just an awkward stage.

So something like Bartered cow gets us close when paired with flowstone flood.

Getting back to the waterfall deck, I'm interested in trying to make Worldfire work so we can use mana layers better.

Switching satyr's cunning for K'rrik and a black flashback/escape card seems the easiest first step, and the a creature we can use for the life gain: Moan of the unhallowed + Ghost-lit redeemer seems like a start, (though using white like this is not great).

Edit: actually, since Worldfire resets their life total as well, we can use their life total along with ours.

The transition seems like there are more options if we can use most flashback sorceries, we spellweaver helix some lifegain (starlight?), worldfire, and some way to get the mana exactly back (restore?)

from there we open up with many mana options, and optimizing that seems daunting.


Edit: hmm we don't need the intervening stage before worldfire/worldpurge as the BB calculation is better than that anyway.
We can use Flowstone Flood as our recastable sorcery (using Crystal chimes/Skull of orm and Darksteel citadel [Edit:March of the machines kills darksteel citadel so something like Consecrate land or Drownyard Temple instead)

Then using some flashback spell, Starlight, Worldfire, and something to get the flashback mana back, and then we have access to any mana for the later stages, and can therefore definitely do better than 8 layers.

I did miss colorless, sorry, forgot you could animate them with the sweeper.

so:
...
each white mana battery taps for x white (coretapper+doubling season vs mana reflection doesn't really matter)
each white lets us bounce dryad arbor x times
each time we discard dryad arbor we can get x copies of it with beacon of unrest and FSC/DS
each copy of dryad arbor taps for x green
...

becomes:
each white mana battery taps for x white
each white lets us bounce dryad arbor x times
each time we discard dryad arbor we can get x copies of SI
each SI gives us X wastes
each waste lets us blink DA X times
each blink gives X FSC triggers
each FSC trigger gives X DAs
each copy of dryad arbor taps for x green

4 layers becomes 8 layers. bringing my estimate to ->24.

White mana battery is interesting, and it really isn't better than the mox for the estimate. The main problem with it is that all of the combo pieces are doing the same thing: letting the battery tap for more mana. You get to remove 2^(X->X->L) counters and get 2^(X->X->L)*2^(X->X->L) = 2^((X->X->L)+(X->X->L)) mana but thats basically the same number as if you had just had Mana Reflection. What you want would be something more like calciform pools (though obviously that goes infinite) that lets you remove the counters slowly.

The problem with your Beacon of creation/Drake familiar/Sumala woodshaper is that the creatures don't chain into each other. The two combos run in parallel. you have one combo updating your enchantments, and another (slightly better) combo that increases your total power, but updating your enchantments doesn't also give you SWS without spending black casting beacon and increasing your power doesnt give more DF without spending black casting beacon.

Replacing Sumala woodshaper with a card like Growing Rites of Itlimoc would let your drake familiars also bring out tons of rhonas and combo into the elementals and power part of your combo. netting 3 ish layers.

However even that is not fully optimal as your enchantments like DS, DP, and CC would be set constants and then not contribute layers to the power section of the combo.

Instead if there was a way to turn your power combo into DFs, (Sinking feeling is the only card I can think of that is even close) then you would be able to update the enchantment numbers in between the triggers and get more layers. This is why most of the past layer decks have focused on duplicating artifacts/enchantments as early as possible.

ok, sorry this took so long J_Kibbs, but here's what i have on your deck:

It was a bit easier to untangle from the other direction so:
we get about 1200 activations of Deathrite shaman before we run out of targets/they run out of life
Each makes X blue thanks to Mana Reflection
Each blue gains us x river hoopoe activations, thanks to Rings of Brighthearth
Each of the birds activations gives us x life via Boon Reflection.
Each point of life is X draws via bargan and rings
each draw gives us X reshuffles via psychic spiral and TYS
each reshuffle lets us cast shatterstorm and replicate it X times (yes you have more red than storm here, but it doesn't matter much)
Each copy of shatterstorm lets us make x copies of our artifacts (Welding Jar saves the Mirrorworks progress)
each white mana battery taps for x white (coretapper+doubling season vs mana reflection doesn't really matter)
each white lets us bounce dryad arbor x times
each time we discard dryad arbor we can get x copies of it with beacon of unrest and FSC/DS
each copy of dryad arbot taps for x green
each green activates dowsing shaman for kaya's ghostform, netting us X black
each black casts x copies of beacon of unrest
each beacon of unrest gives x FSC triggers for all the creatures
each FSC trigger for SWS gives x SXS triggers (parallel combo here with drake giving us copies of the enchantments)
each SWS trigger gives x FSC triggers for Rhonas (copies of drake familiar pick up enchantments)
each Rhonas trigger gives x power to elementals (recasting the enchantments gives triggers and copies)
each power on an elemental gives x counters to a runaway steamkin (parallel drake combo ends)
which makes X red
and finally, each red gives X power.

so by my count that's around X->X->20
Again im not claiming to be perfect here, but that should be pretty close.

The main areas for improvement would be some clever way to give the opponent life, an easier way to copy artifacts(mirrormade? No, that goes
infinite...), panharmonicon (currently would only give one layer, but if artifacts were easier to copy could be worth more), reconfiguring the combo so that drake familiar and sumala woodshaper happen in sequence instead of in parallel (they are both recast with beacon, so they have the same bottleneck.)

There's also some card slots that don't help as much as you'd think they would.

Interesting, but Stunning Reversal sets up a delayed trigger instead of doing it on resolution.
Though maybe theres some way to use the "you lose" enchantments like Lich's Mastery

Sway of the stars is another similar card but 7 is probably too high. We cant let our sweeper gain us life like that.

Also, we do need to clear some of the board, as we don't want to be able to keep flash during the transition.

Ah I had a post with the approximation for ancalgon's deck but looks like i never posted it.

redoing it a bit quicker for my sanity:

First note that certain things can't get their number of copies updated at their optimal times: most notably Doubling season in the early parts of the combo.
Heroes bane takes X mana to X^X (really its 2^X,
Alena uses a tap to make X^X mana X^^X
Each creature can tap as an Alena X^^^X
A copy of outnumber makes creatures X^^^^X
Precursor Golem gives many copies X^^^^^X
A Isochron scepter trigger gives many targets thanks to TYS X^^^^^^X = X->X->6
Kurkesh turns a tap into many triggers X->X->7
Unbender tine gives many taps X->X->8
Talisman untaps tine when we cast a blue spell
which we can do with every card draw
cracking a clue gives many draws X->X->9
Doubling season turns an investigate into clues X->X->10
Bygone Bishop gives many investigates X->X->11
Chainer Nightmare adept gives many creature casts X->X->12
Wydwen gives Chainer activations X->X->13
Rhox Faithmender on food X->X->14
Kurkesh on food X->X->15
doubling season with food X->X->16
Yarok with gingerbread cabin X->X->17
second sunrise X->X->18
surreal memoir X->X->19
chandra ablaze X->X->20
Eerie Ultimatum X->X->21
echo of eons X->X->22
Time spiral X->X->23

I might have missed some layers, but I'd say this is a reasonable lower bound, and pretty close to the upper bound.

@j_kibbs, reading through yours next.

Haven't looked through everything, but can help a little with the math.

Having a process that takes 3^x to 3^^x is good, but you need to repeat it about x times to get to 3^^^x, so a lot of the math gets simplified. So by the end of the golem triggers in your example you'd be at 3^^^99 and then it looks like a few more layers for the other activations and kurkesh to get to 3^^^^^99

So what's the decklist like now?

And is there any possibility of switching to Worldfire to keep mana stages?

Brightflame does damage, so its not safe with waterclocks (assuming we can actually cast it for 1RRWW at all)

Also while the spoilers have mostly been a bust, Lithoform Engine is pretty good. Though it does seem likely to go infinite.

We can also get some new potential links to kicker via Coralhelm Chronicler or lullmage's familiar

Another option to save mana layers is to use abilities that we can hide on the stack like Deathrite Shaman, Witch Engine with rings of brighthearth

@Ancalgon: Yeah, they also changed double faced cards to have the same cmc on both sides, instead of all of them being 0.

@deedlit: Worldpurge also clears mana pools, so the plains/gaea's cradle with Amulet of Vigor and caged sun generate a whole bunch of mana, but we need to convert it all before Worldpurging, so we don't get full effect of everything above increasing our conversion.

@jfb: If we use the cleanup step as an infinite discard outlet, we can't attack for the win, so that's not a problem, though Gerrard's Verdict would still be a discard outlet.

I'm still a bit rusty with the deck, bit I think mana layers (like Gaea's Cradle) run into problems with Worldpurge. I think we wantmana abilities that use the stack like Deathrite shaman and Witch engine

Getting back to this after standard,
First off, welcome Ancalagon91, always nice to see a new name here.
As to your deck, I think the other posts have already explained whats going on there, and their estimations are probably better than mine.

As for the Waterclock deck:

We have a full third of the deck empty, and some of the others cards could be cut or changed to fit an improvement.

Soul sculptor looks like a promising way to preserve creatures for later.

Oh I see, I just have an off by one error, clearly if their library only had 1 card it wouldn't be C->1->7, but C-.2->7. Thanks.

Also the improved start adds some card slot freedom, so adventure guys?

I might be missing some of the math for chained arrowe, but since we only make 3 treasures to start, and one of them is accounted for to pay for dance of the manse, we only get to like C->3->6? Before casting another Happily ever after.