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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Just using elvish spirit guides for mana seems difficult to get started with. We'd need 3 of them + bayou just to get to Eureka.

    Good point about shatter, we need the timing window from yuki-onna.

    I think the real issue with Goblin Welder is that as a tap ability we can save it after the retract transition to make more metallurgeons and go infinite that way. Being CMC 1 is almost another problem but I think that is actually ok.

    Mad Auntie I think might be fine, but cmc 3 conflicts with Mimic vat for EE. goblin lookout or Goblin trashmaster are also interesting, but I think we decided were dead ends.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The trouble with getting rid of mana crypt is that most other mana rocks go infinite with the Forerunner of Slaughter tech we are using to restore progress.

    Goryo's Vengence is still useful, its the easy way to get child of alara back into play.

    I guess wear away is basically just doing what Yuki-Onna is doing but with a little more of a timing restriction? At that point I suppose we could just cut the middleman and use a Shatter variant? Molten Frame lets us sneak cycling in. Sundering Growth probably goes infinite, vision charm + time and tide I think works as a way to save our artifacts? (oops works too well and lets us smuggle metallurgeon tokens down the stack)

    Edit:hmm I think goblin welder being 1 cmc might cause some issues

    Another thought is that we can even champion yuki-onna or any uktabi orangutan guy instead of goblin dark dewllers. aside from a bunch of boring creatures that destroy an artifact on etb, Sharuum the hegemon is the only creature that puts an artifact from the graveyard to play on ETB but goes infinite. Hasty Goblin welder from goblin warchief looks like the next best thing.

    Meanwhile cards like Trash for Treasure are just taunting us with their sorceryness.

    Edit: hmm goblin welder being 1 cmc might cause an issue...
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah, the thought with Arcum Dagsson was a card to both both target and fetch metallurgeon so we don't need chalice on 2 to make them. But I see Arcum only fetches noncreature artifacts.

    Salvaging station adds back in the infinite mana combo, which currently allows for infinite copies of artifacts and enchantments, and switching to march of the machines makes the start difficult/ugly/tricky/awkward but maybe not impossible. (ugh no, it means a matallurgeon trigger can't make mana without killing the chalice so probably a dead end unless we switch to a different way to animate artifacts?)

    Sydri, galvanic genius makes animating artifacts expensive enough that we can use Salvaging Station and the WB ability is too expensive to use. So maybe?

    By replacing Karn with Sydri, Yuki-Onna + Salvaging Station is looking hopeful. We can even use Goryo's vengence still as the arcane spell now that it doesn't need to resolve to generate metallurgeons. Though there might be a more useful arcane instant at cmc 3 or less?

    Oh and also Sydri+Salvaging Station letting us wash U into 2 should speed up the start.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yuki-Onna is interesting but doesn't solve the problem with recycling chalice (or especially EE)? If Whir of invention was arcane it looks like it would work.

    Hmm, Argivian Find is close but lets us recast EE too cheaply.

    Does Second sunrise somehow possibly work?

    Edit: no, it gets back cenn's tactician too. (and wrecks most of the extensions...)

    Arcum Dagsson looks like he works though needing to also manage Horobi (to let the ability actually resolve and get EE) looks awkward?

    Skill borrower looks like a possible 3 cmc metallurgeon band aid? Edit: Oops no, it copies the top artifact OR creature not only artifact creatures.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Getting more draw triggers from the sphinxes is pretty nice for the start, but i think that freely reshuffling things in might let Muzzio get things back too easily?

    I think I need to see the metallurgeon stage get rebuilt from one Cenn's tactician activation, (giving a bunch of PB triggers) because the stack gets real complicated there, and we gotta keep track of everything's location and when chalice is what.

    Looking back to stakfish's earlier explanation I think I see the problem: Metallurgeon conflicting with Goryo's Vengence is NOT wanted for the rebuilding process. The conflict we need is between the Cenn's tactician slot and the recall/retract/rebuild slot.

    Unfortunately, there aren't exactly other cards like Goryo's vengeance or Metallurgeon, Hero's Demise is actually close, but also targets child of alara.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Myr welder is colorless, so Forerunner makes making copies of it is not super hard, Target the original, make a mimic vat copy... oh i see, getting the original back is tricky now. Hmm, i guess we need one of the muzzio activations to get it back? (Or chalice on 3)

    We also can't go to timepiece because of ...? something? Hmm... I thought there was still a reason to make reshuffling from the graveyard more expensive?

    Saving a card would be nice, but maybe needing to soak up that extra muzzio activation ends up being key? (it's kinda awkward as we can get them in a 1,3,1,3... cadence, instead of a cleaner 2,2,2,2...)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ok, so here is the deck, modified slightly from post #2266 (-millikin+shriekhorn -skull+crystal chimes -reforge+sphinx -decree+congregation)
    Currently using about half of the cards in the analysis (first 27+#35+#(43-46)+#60)

    trying to get into the actual Chalice of the Void lines, I am going to be a bit more granular than last time because I want to be careful. First, as they show up in the steps and I haven't exactly been using them consistently, I'm going to properly define a lock. Locks can either be locked or unlocked by actions. Actions that lock a lock can only be done when the lock is unlocked. On the other hand, actions that unlock a lock can be done even if the lock is unlocked.

    For example, in the normal operation of the metallurgeon stage, the real metallurgeon's location acts as a lock on when we can make a hasty metallurgeon token.

    Here are the operations we can do: (*=requires flash)
    0. using Mirror of fate/shreikhorn we can move any card from exile->library and library->grave. Myr welder also lets us move artifacts from grave->exile.
    1*. bounce and replay Vedalken Orrery to put a mirrorworks trigger on the stack that gives us flash when the trigger resolves.
    2*. spend mana to increase our multiplier X (by making copies of enchantments and artifacts as in the previous post)
    3*. Resolve a PB:M trigger to make X mana. (PB=Psychic Battle)
    4. Spend a M to make X PB:M triggers. (M = hasty metallurgeons)
    5. Resolve a PB:M trigger and lock M to put the real Metallurgeon in hand.
    6*. If chalice=2 and Metallurgeon is in hand then we can cast and counter the metallurgeon to get X BM:M triggers. (BM=Bloodbond March)
    7. If Metallurgeon is in the grave, resolve a BM:M trigger to unlock M.
    8. Resolve a PB:M trigger and lock M to make one M.

    I think that captures the mechanics of the top of the stack, this should roughly implement the Ackermann function on the initial amount of M.

    Now we need to generate many Ms. We do that by making an initial one and using that to make x more. To do that For example, the "real Metallurgeon" kind of behaves as a lock in the above, but it is a bit confusing with that one because of how many zones it goes through.

    8*. Lock EE (=2) and lock M to kill all of the Metallurgeons, and gain one M.
    9. Resolve a Muzzio activation to unlock M.
    10. Resolve Goryo's Vengeance to get a Muzzio activation, and an untapped muzzio. (this is a lie, but pretty close to what we get)
    11. Resolve a Muzzio activation to put ee=0 or chalice=0 in play
    12. Resolve a Retract to unlock EE if it is in play, reset chalice, and bounce all artifacts (losing flash, if M is unlocked, lock it and put M in hand)
    13. Resolve GDD to put GV on the stack if Chalice !=2
    14. Resolve GDD to put Retract on the stack if Chalice !=1
    15*. Resolve Changeling Hero to exile one other creature (mostly GDD sometimes Vedalken Orrery)
    16. Resolve a PB:CT trigger to bounce Changeling Hero and get the championed card back.

    That's all the stuff we need for the transition, now the Cenn's tactician stage, which is similar to the metallurgeon one.

    17. Spend a CT to make X PB:CT triggers. (CT = hasty Cenn's tacticians)
    18. Resolve a PB:CT trigger and lock CT to put the real Cenn's tactician in hand.
    19*. If chalice=1 and CT is in hand then we can cast and counter the Cenn's Tactician to get X BM:CT triggers.
    20. If CT is in the grave, resolve a BM:CT trigger to unlock CT.
    21. Resolve a PB:CT trigger and lock CT to make one CT.
    22*. Lock EE=1 to lock CT and kill all CT and gain one CT.

    I think that gets us to the point where we need to smite/collar the Changeling Hero?

    I don't see any obvious infinites or anything like that. Though I may have missed something. Some of the actions could be combined/broken down more. Might need to look more into the transition and exactly when chalice is what.

    Also, I only used chalice on 1 and 2, to conflict with GV/M and Recall/CT, no need to get it on other numbers anymore?

    And using locks was less helpful for me than I expected, the EE lock helped, but the others are meh.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    We can leave a mirrorworks trigger for mirrorworks on the stack, so we only have to draw it once. It is worth it because mirrorworks works on both the amulet and the borderpost, the returns start piling up pretty fast, having just one token we paid for after a recall, we can pay 2 to make another, then 2 more to bounce and replaying the original, and paying 4 for the triggers brings us up to five from just 10 Mana, 10 more lets us make 6 amulets, and now borderpost copies are each +4 Mana, 4*5+6=26 then minus 2 to reset the mirrorworks is still a profit from 20 invested mana, and we can get even more mirrorworks after the next recall.

    25~30 Mana was the tipping point, and having to copy enchantments brings us clear over that threshold.

    oh and by recall and rebuild we mean retract to conflict with Cenn's Tactician
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, I have about half of a big post about the first part of the stages written up, but the options and restrictions and possible setups make it hard to tell if things work. Currently I'm mostly struggling with the Muzzio activations to rebuild our Metallurgeon counts. I think there may be some problems, but I'm not sure.

    It's awkward because of having to keep track of flash and when we gain/lose it or any other tricks we can do.


    A few other notes about the start: In order for the BBM/PB combos to be powerful, we need to start with 2 of each of the enchantments? Thankfully, I think we can start profiting mana before then, and making the enchantments won't cost the naive ~25 mana that would require ~5 more cycles of making mana via card draw.

    Also, because of that, we definitely do want to be able to have mirrorworks of mirrorworks, as it will end up saving us card draw cycles, even if the setup is kind of expensive: Spend 1 to make it a creature, 1 to kill it with forerunner, 3 to make a Mimic vat token, 2 for the Mirror of fate token, for a total of 7 mana and a card draw. (it's really only 5 because we would make a mirror anyway)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Well, further optimizing the start is less important than verifying that it works at all. Which it looks like we can get going pretty well.Even if we have to do that loop 20 times, to get started the opponent will still have about a dozen cards to draw. which is more than enough time to catch up to any of the other decks.

    We have been putting off analyzing the chalice tricks in the stage and transitions for a while, and i think it is finally time to dive into it. Here is a rough overview of the current strategy:

    Much like previous decks, at the very top of the stack we are mainly spending mana to copy colorless cmc>0 artifacts and non-aura enchantments using the following processes:
    If the artifact is not already a creature, spend 1 to make it a creature with Karn, Silver golem. Then pay 1 to target it with Forerunner of Slaughter (This also makes PB triggers, so this cost is more like 1/#PBs) This causes Cowardice to bounce it to our hand.
    Replaying it gives Mirrorworks triggers, so we can pay 2 to make a copy for each mirrorworks we have. [side note:Maybe just one mirrorworks? it costs a card draw to copy it with Mimic Vat then redraw it, and extras are convenient but probably not necessary]
    Average Cost:1/(#mirrorworks)+1/(1+#PB)+2 which is >2 and <4 so lets approximate it to 3.

    With Opalescence in play, we can sacrifice an enchantment to Phantatog and imprint it on a Mimic Vat, we then tap mimic vat for 3 to make a token copy of the enchantment. Next we sacrifice a Mirror of fate token to shuffle the enchantment into the deck, mill it with Shriekhorn and use a Crystal Chimes to return it to hand.
    Average Cost:3+(artifact's cost)+(3*(artifact's cost)+3)/2 because we can double up on the last three artifacts to also make a copy of another enchantment, We only really need tons of Bloodbond Marches and Psychic Battles.
    So the cost is >9 and <15 which we can call ~12

    We make all this mana with Fieldmist Borderpost+Amulet of vigor. Given a sufficient initial investment of copies of amulet, we reap quadratic mana from bouncing/copying the Borderpost.

    But, the Borderpost is not colorless so we can't target it with the Forerunner, instead we need to target it with Metallurgeon.

    We make need hasty copies of Metallurgeon from Mimic Vat, but to get it on the vat we need to kill a metallurgeon.

    Which we do in the following way: Cast metallurgeon into chalice of the void = 2 and get Bloodbond March triggers. use one to reanimate the little guy. Then use Engineered explosives on 2 to kill it and imprint on a vat. Tap the vat for a token and then either re-imprint the mimic vat with another card, or use a mirror of fate and shriekhorn to move the card from exile to the graveyard, where the next Bloodbond march trigger can pick it up.
    Now the hasty token has a cardboard buddy to target and either bounce with cowardice or kill with horobi, death's wail.

    And we also finally have something that can target the Borderpost to bounce it and make a bunch of mana, and a bunch more artifacts/enchantments.

    We use the last PB trigger from the token to kill the original, make another token, and then return it with the next bloodbond march trigger from the original casting.

    So far this is all basically the same as the non chalice decks, but this time, instead of battlecry to reuse all of those hasty metallurgeons, there's some crazy Muzzio, Visionary Architect and goryo's vengence thing, which is blocked by chalice=2.

    The Muzzio Monstrosity is explained in stakfish's post #1871 here, In short, it allows us to profit hasty metallurgeon tokens. This is the process I am most concerned about having broken with our changes.

    That process is limited by Changeling Hero, and the only thing we can target that with is Cenn's Tactician, which conflicts with retract and forces us to change chalice more. This is another nebulous process to me and again is something we need to be careful with.

    Another way to target Changeling hero is Smite the Monstrous, (or Collar the Culprit depending on which way works better)
    That spell gets cast from spellweaver vollute, and the cheapest sorcery we have to trigger that is Acorn harvest which costs 3 life to flash back. (Or a K'rrik setup)

    To get that life back we need to hit Child of alara with the spell and kill then otherwise unkillable Centaur Safeguard (or a different creature for K'rrik). We can rebuild using our floating mana

    To gain life we are using Divine Congregation (which seems better than the Multani's Decree in the list right now) which we can only recast by using the retrace from cenn's enlistment, combined with Spellweaver Helix, but that needs a land in hand, which we can fetch with Realm Seekers, but that needs green so we discard the land to Phantatog and play Titania, Protector of Argoth to get it in play.

    We get that land back through that cycle by exiling it with worldfire, also cast from the Spellweaver helix. Again we rebuild using our floating mana

    And then the rest of the deck is a chain of creatures that target each other, all culminating in a way to bounce the land more.
    Eventually we are limited by the number of cards in our opponent's deck and can make a ton of 10/10 hasty Omniscience tokens and attack.

    Edit: I know it does not matter, but it is more mana efficient to make Mirror of Fates
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah hopefully Stakfish can weigh in on that.

    And you are right, we want to draw collar if we can, we dont want to mill it. Also I was thinking we exiled spellweaver vollute somehow, which we can't do.

    So a cycle something like:
    Draw Retract, CtC, (Elvish Spirit guide?)
    Bounce GDD+Sphinx
    Retract, GDD, Retract, make an extra mirror of fate (+4 mana) {5 with the spirit guide}
    Mirror back Retract (and the spirit guide)
    play sphinx
    Draw Retract+Sorcery+{elvish spirit guide?}
    Retract and make an extra crystal chimes (+5 mana so far)
    crystal chimes back spellweaver vollute (+2 mana)
    enchant CtC, cast the sorcery to bounce GDD+Sphinx. Volute is enchanting nothing and dies.
    GDD retract and make an extra mirror (+3 mana) {+5 with both Elf draws}
    Spellweaver helix exiles the sorcery. (possibly we start using flashback Acorn harvest to save on card draws, but that costs 2 mana too)
    Mirror back the retract, CtC, sorcery, and the elf

    Doing this 4 times gets us to 20 floating mana, which I think is enough to start profiting from Forerunner+metallurgeon.

    We probably need to do another iteration to draw the cards we need to.

    I don't know if we want to being making enchantments before we start making mana? We are already sacrificing crystal chimes so they only cost the 3 mana to tap Mimic Vat. More Psychic Battles makes making mana more efficient.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oof, that does make things trickier.

    We'd probably need to redraw spellweaver volute, as even 2+3 mana for crystal chimes seems like too much.

    Hmm, can we use shriekhorn for the millstone? that way we don't need to redraw Collar the Culprit, and can draw retract, spellweaver volute, sorcery. And be +4 mana each cycle?

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I was thinking we want to bounce goblin dark dwellers and Sphinx with our two triggers from Collar the culprit.

    Goblin dark dwellers casts retract, for +3 mana. and spellweaver helix exiles Collar the culprit. (this is much cheaper than recycling spellweaver vollute at this point)

    Then we make a mirror token (-2 mana) and reshuffle Retract, collar, and elvish spirit guide(I guess?) to be drawn with the sphinx.

    Retract and ESG gives us +4 more mana, so the whole cycle is +5 mana at the cost of our opponent drawing a card.

    Doing this 4 times looks like enough to start profiting off of Amulet/forerunner/borderpost.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh right, the restricted list, Good thing we didn't want to use two of anything else restricted. (Cenn's enlistment seems probably safe from restriction ;))
    We can bounce the sphinx with Collar the Culprit/Smite the Monstrous to get more draws. (and it can be exiled by spellweaver helix to get shuffled back with a Mirror token)

    Kinda suboptimal but drawing retract+smite+??? from the sphinx lets us cast retract twice and be +4 mana after paying for the mirror token, we can do this loop a few times to get to enough mana for making a metallurgeon to be profitable.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh right my bad, so that's an extra 16 cycles so 50*(golden ratio)^132 = 2*10^29 which when cubed gives 8*10^87. Optimal Heat shimmering might get you past a google.

    Precursor golem is much better than 4x triggers. There's a good discussion of it starting at post 2019 on page 80. But here's the basics of how it works very well with Heat Shimmers.

    Starting with just one precursor the first Heat Shimmer (always target a vanilla golem token) gives us 1 more precursor for a total of 2PGs, acting as normal. The second Heat shimmer triggers both the token and the original precursor's 'Zada' triggers, the first trigger resolves and makes some heat shimmers, doubling the number of golems we have to 4 PGs, then the second precursor's trigger resolves and doubles the golems again to 8PGs. The next Heat Shimmer triggers all 8 of them and each trigger doubles the number of PGs we have 8*2^8=2^11=2048. The 4th Heat Shimmer doubles the golems 2^11 times. Taking us to more than 2^(2^11) PGs. Which is a number with over 600 digits already.

    As we cast more heat shimmers we keep doubling more and more, getting to 2^(2^(2^11)), then 2^(2^(2^(2^11))) and so on. creating a power tower of 2s as tall as however many times we can cast Heat Shimmer.

    Well if not a channel, I think a second Mana crypt will be enough to get us off the ground, ~4 retracts is a lot easier to get than 6 early. (and we can be +mana using a mirror of fate token to get it back from exile). Hmm, actually we are already at +1 mana from that cycle and can just draw it again? Spending Sphinx triggers like that seems kinda wasteful, but not as much as losing a card slot in the deck.
    Posted in: Magic General
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