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  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    Oh I see, hmm, yeah blue mana is a bit tighter at the start, and its not worth switching to add another Stony strength they way some of our earlier lines were able to use.

    Edit: I have the updated pre-landfall line in the google doc if you want to look over it and see if there are any errors or to make any of the estimates more exact. The Repeated Reverberations get pretty damn strong! and I have storm at around 3 trillion, but with 2^630000 landfall triggers, so we aren't starting nearly as far behind the ministage starts as I had initially thought.

    Key improvements over the line in your post: Getting the whole deck into hand with the TYS trigger (except for Gaea's Blessing). Making more initial red when Kykar is still in play. Sneaking a couple more Repeated reverberations in for value. Increasing the sphinx:gyre engineer ratio to more heavily use Stony strength for storm (might not actually be better?). And the Teshar/Militia Bugler swap to allow the line to actually continue into the main combo.

    Edit: ok I've gone through to the end, but haven't included all of the optimizations, like the Saheeli making Azor's gateway a Dowsing dagger trick, or the effects of the extra creature fetchers. I currently count a total of 21 Sanctum of the sun taps which brings us to 5->X->21->12. Where that X is gonna be something like 5->Z->3->12.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    There is a bit of a tradeoff, I think actually optimally we slot the TYS trigger for Gaea's blessing on top of 2 or so of the Repeated reverberations, so we don't have to slow down to not deck. But I haven't worked it out yet, it looks like +4 or so red can be saved like that.

    Edit: without Nexus of fate, red mana is more expensive than blue. one of the Act of treason should maybe go back to Replicate?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    Oh, with the storm count this low at the start, we can stack the RR draws from Gaea's blessing first to increase the storm for the TYS trigger for Gaea's Blessing, and not worry much about decking.

    Edit:
    We have 14 cards that are in play, in exile, or otherwise not drawable, they are:
    Leyline
    Leyline
    Leyline
    Llanowar Elf
    Breeding Pool
    Plains
    Emergency powers (exiled)
    Kykar
    Samut
    Mox amber
    Gyre engineer
    Precognition field
    Thousand-year storm
    Gaea’s Blessing (can’t draw)

    Thus we should get the storm count to make 46 copies of Gaea’s Blessing but no more.

    Looks like we can get to ~ 19389RRs with 1287G,327U,21R floating, 47 storm, and an empty graveyard and 1 card deck with that line.

    (I think Red mana is miscounted in your line?)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    Hmm, yeah the timing is not good, we only want to have Teshar in play with a reshuffle looming.

    What if we played Teshar instead of militia bugler first? That way we have the bugler in hand to fetch Teshar with later. We can save playing Karn until after Teshar as the historic spell.

    I think that works?

    Edit: Teshar not Kykar
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    yeah, that looks very good.

    10^10^5 or so is certainly a lot smaller than we were entering the stage with when we had Nexus of fate, but we catch up before we spend any more life.

    I am going to miss having all of the turns stored up though.

    One other thing to possibly consider for combat is having an innately indestructible creature like drudge sentinels or Zetalpa, primal dawn wear the equipment, freeing us up to wrath mid-combat. (We still can't Purify though, so no full combat stage. Which means this probably isn't worth it)

    It's really too bad that treasure tokens aren't safe. The current loop is that a creature treasure can be copied a bunch and live through a wrath, and then pay for the black card draw spell to get enough resources to animate again and make more copies. If something forced us to purify in the first few layers, they probably would be safe, but I don't see a way to force that. (if only the antiquities war stuck around doing nothing...)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    wow very nice analysis, I had been thinking the white mana the key makes can be balanced by drawing a Cleansing nova in the initial draws.

    (maybe wrathing before animating the key is good?)

    The red mana on the other hand looks like more of a bottleneck that I'd expected. Losing Nexus of fate really hurts early.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    We only need for them to have one Ceratops because we can keep it alive with Stony Strength.

    as for the alternate starts, the CMC1 cards look pretty anemic, there's not much we want in there:

    Dead weight lets us kill small creatures, but not the creatures we currently want to kill.

    Slash of Talons lets us mess with combat more.

    Neither one of those seem very useful.

    Without a ministage, karn looks worse, but he does let us already have an animated key, saving us 2 landfall triggers ... yeah that's not very much. I guess it depends on if we want a ministage?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    Hmm we can kill our own Citywatch sphinx with the Regisaur triggers to update the number of angels they have without wrathing too early.
    (and we only need to give them one ceratops)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    But we need to draw blood for bones, as black mana is expensive.

    I guess if we save Bankrupt in blood can draw Blood for bones enough if we save it from the last copy of Gaea's blessing. So it looks not as awkward as I initially thought.

    And yeah this is all after activating sarkhan the first time, so the Emergent Growth is a lot less effective.



    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    yeah we cant wrath in combat, so casting a bunch of Blood for bones looks a bit tricky.

    Emergent Growth also damages their dinos too, and get lifegain triggers that we can put under the transform triggers and let us start to wrath after transforming the artifacts.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    This is all assuming we have enough initial storm to draw the rest of our Blood for Bones and Concocts from the first Gaea's blessing right?

    I think that's what I was missing. It is that the setup lets us get a bunch of free things, and we want to use those to iterate the most powerful resources possible. Additional creature fetcher are iterations instead of multiplication like repeated reverberation, because we still have the "original" blood for bones waiting, and we are maximizing the storm count there. Whereas activating Sarkhan with more RRs still uses up the one free activation.

    Thanks for explaining.

    Hmm, but won't Herald of faith kill them? If we wrath we also kill whatever is wearing the daggers.

    we would need like Emergent Growth to make them block

    Maybe March of the Multitudes or something for lifelink?

    Swathcutter Giant also has a better attack trigger.

    Drakuseth, maw of flames can kill our Sarkhan. So can Raging Regisaur

    Edit: hmm probably only drakuseth or Raging Regisaur with be worth it because an extra Sarkhan is so much better than a squad of swathcutters that we can't combo out in between, because we need to actually hit with the daggers.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    Hmm, so I think the timing is the tricky bit that I'm missing. because my intuition still is that creature fetching can't be the best spot to spend our extra cards. I know intuition is, to put it lightly, absolutely awful, at this scale.

    Basically we enter the stage at the landfall trigger section, as soon as we put Emergence zone into play, we can sac it in response to the landfall triggers and be off to ackermann induced numbers. (X->X->X->3? for the landfall triggers).

    If we optimize for the initial storm, we start all of that at something around X^^^X where X=10^(10^20) storm.

    That gives us a ton more initial worldshapers when we run out of landfalls, only after all of those death triggers have been exhausted do the extra fetchers come into play. And I can see them overtaking, because additional iteration at this level does matter the first might only get say 50->50->50->3 copies, but the second copy is charged up by that. Ok, you've sold me on the intital storm being less important.

    But, I guess I still don't quite see why extra Sarkhan pings aren't also worth it? If there was a Smothering Tithe that pyroclasmed instead of giving us a treasure, wouldn't we play that? And Repeated Reverberation gives us way more than the ~200 extra pings that that card would give us. Is the timing really so bad as to make it not worth it?

    Another minor point is that Bankrupt in blood can't draw all of these Blood for bones and Concoct s each time through, so this is just a one time optimization.

    Fair point about RR's TYS triggers, so we want to be constantly spending our Kykar mana whenever we can. (though we get a lot less of it without Nexus of Fate.)


    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    But shouldn't it be the same asymptotically? c extra creature fetches each card draw vs c times as many card draws? We need to cast our card drawer just as often, and we get the same total number of creature fetches.

    If we had an extra replicate we can make more dinos to make them gain life twice as many times for every sarkhan activation. Which turn into far more than 23x as many gaea's blessings.

    It seems like you are improving the middle of the combo as opposed to the start or the later layers? For example, one extra free black mana would be worth way more than all of this creature fetching, and all that that lets us do is get 1 more sarkhan activation. So why isn't one extra sarkhan trigger worth more than the creature fetching as well? (and its even X extra sarkhan triggers...)

    Though it looks like any tricks with Repeated Reverberation are not particularly amplified by additional RRs. Though with just one we can do a pretty good amount, I think we can get ~X TYS triggers to go off right before we activate Sarkhan, by just casting RR when the stack gets down that low, then doing whatever we would normally do (gaea's blessing or w/e) this makes Sarkhan give X^2 activations in that layer instead of X. In fact we can do this for all the layers that rely on spells (that have access to red mana).
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    I'm not seeing how having 23 extra creature fetch instances is any better than drawing one creature fetcher 23x as many times? It looks like a multiplicative effect of the next layer.

    Repeated reverberation isn't quite as good for sarkhan activations as it is for the card drawers. With the spells we can split the RR copies from the TYS copies, Much like we've been doing at the start. We can get RR on RR for say gaea's blessing and save the TYS triggers for the next time we are about to cast Gaea's blessing, and then RR on RR and still have TYS triggers for later. (we might even be able to 'hide' some of those on the bottom of the stack, and carry them all through to Sarkhan's activation?)



    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    Hmm, this seems similar to the issue of extra replicates helping in the stage vs act of treason helping the start. it looked like any advantage carried over into the initial stage combo was better than an advantage gained within the layer extensions, as the layer would already be much bigger than just getting double (or 23x) value each time.

    And anyway, if we just want extra instances of "fetch a creature" by far the best option for that is extra TYS, which helps many parts of the combo (notably card draw and Sarkhan activations). Another card that also helps a deeper layer is more Repeated Reverberation which also help increase the number of Sarkhan activations.

    Posted in: Magic General
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