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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, Krosan groundshaker seems to work, as we can put our hand including the real Wormfang Behemoth onto a token Wormfang.

    But taking an extra card isn't great. It's too bad that Tidehollow Skuller is opponents only.

    As for championing a useful goblin, we can get haste in two flavors with chasm guide or hellraiser goblin goblin assassin seems likely to go infinite, same with goblin smuggler

    Grenzo, dungeon Warden seems interesting, but goes infinite.

    Warren Pilferers are kind of close but again infinite

    Leaves the battlefield triggers are also tricky, most that look useful only hit opponents.

    I guess there's Lumbering Battlement but that looks like it has the same problem as Wormfang? saprazzan bailiff seems similar

    Depending on how the rules work Portcullis might be the card?
    I think that lets us get going immediately after worldfire, but might be problematic with other parts of the combo? hmm yeah rebuild doesn't lock flash anymore, I think theres a similar problem with Lumbering Battlement too.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    There are a few other subtle issues, but we can take care of them easily,

    Iname exiles itself and we dont have any mirrors/timepieces in play for the Vengance to target it, but we just cast a GV earlier from Spellweaver Volute.

    Rebuilding is less efficient without any enchantments carried over, but once we get to a casting of battle cry we get the TYS copies and are back up to speed.

    On to the Worldfire/Black mana stage?

    A few initial questions:
    what all are we putting on the spellweaver helix? Spider Spawning, Worldfire, and divine congregation? Anything else?
    How are we recycling Wormfang?
    Why divine congregation over ... Oh I see, the options are kinda awful.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, yeah those are tricky issues.

    I think that because we lose flash, we can't do anything tricky until we resolve to the lower mirrorworks trigger.

    so the outline of the stack for the combo so far is:

    x PB triggers
    x BM triggers
    x PB triggers
    x BM triggers.
    x batches of PB/BM triggers make a stage with the resource being Metallurgions

    x Battle Cry
    PB trigger from lower stage
    x Battle Cry
    PB trigger from lower stage

    x of those makes the hyperstage with the resource being RFAs

    x Into Thin Air
    Child of Alara
    PB trigger from lower stage
    x Into Thin Air
    Child of Alara
    PB trigger from lower stage

    x of those make the megastage with the resource being life.

    So what we need to verify is that the resources can't be smuggled beyond the triggers that separate the stages. (resolving down through the stack, we can go the other way no problem, its just very inefficient)

    Metallurgions can't be smuggled past rebuild or past Child, and RFAs can't be smuggled past Child. (and not even life can be brought past Worldfire, but we haven't gotten there yet.)

    But things are a bit more subtle and complex than that skeleton and we need to be careful that we aren't costing too much from the neighboring stages. In particular, we want to take only from the very top of the next stage down, and not any more.

    One thing we have to worry about is that we can return to the lower hyperstage with an Engineered Explosives in our hand. So, if we can start the megastage transtion with Explosives on the battlefield (after being used), we could theoretically then go to the higher hyperstage, leave the higher hyperstage with the Explosives in our hand, then return to the lower hyperstage, allowing us to play the Explosives and sacrifice it to get another Razorfin Abolisher token.

    And I think EE is one of those annoying subtleties, because we can leave it in hand, I think there might be an issue, I'm gonna investigate, and probably post later today or tomorrow with either an infinite line or any of my close calls.

    The triggers you mention do seem to make things a little complicated.

    Ok, I think it is fine. The key thing is that any of the Bloodbond March / Verdant Succession triggers for Boggart Mob, Bramblewood Paragon, and Jade Bearer are necessarily under the Rebuild that the darkdwellers cast as we ran out of RFAs. If we carry EE in hand down here, we can get an activation, sure, but not on a Jade Bearer, until after the Rebuild that would give us the EE anyway.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    well, once we run through the rest of the deck we can verify the start and see if March+Vault is worth the trouble.

    Speaking of the rest of the deck, next we e are doing a Spellweaver Vollute stack again,
    And the operations we currently have are:
    1. Spend one M to put x PB on the stack.
    2*. Resolve a PB to put x BM on the stack.
    3. Resolve a PB to increase x (and unlock flash).
    4. Resolve a PB then a BM immediately to generate one M.
    5. Use one BC from the top of the stack to gain x M.
    6a. Resolve R to unlock EE and destroy all M and lock flash
    6b. Resolve a Mob to put R, and/or x BC on the stack.
    6c*. Spend a RFA to put x Mob on the stack
    6d*. lock EE to put gain one RFA
    * requires flash

    We have x Spellweaver Volutes on each of the instants, but most importantly on Into Thin Air.
    The only sorceries in the deck to trigger the aura are Worldfire, Divine Congregation (neither of which we can recur) Spider spwaning (we don't have black yet) and Acorn Harvest, which we can recast for 3 life.

    so we have
    7a. Spend 3 life to put x copies of any instants on the stack in any order. (mostly ITA, then one BFI and one Goryo's vengance)
    7b. Resolve an ITA to unlock EE

    This seems like a dangerous amount of freedom, but none of our instants can unlock flash, and the only way to gain 3 life locks flash.

    In particular, apothecary geist gains us 3 life on ETB, but we can't target him with anything yet, and we only have access to the 3 bant colors so we can't even use EE =4 to kill it.

    Instead we need to use Child of Alara to blow everything up and Iname, Life Aspect to return the spirit from the graveyard.

    Child of Alara (and phantatog) can be targeted by Brace for Impact, and then all three of the legends get reanimated via Goryo's Vengance. (Horobi, Deaths Wail)

    8a. resolve a BFI and lock CoA and flash and destroy everything (all Ms and RFAs) to gain 3 life.
    8b. resolve a GV to unlock CoA

    There are a few potential issues:
    Can we even rebuild after the Child goes boom boom? Yes, but we need to prep with Mirrorworks triggers before even casting Acorn Harvest. We also need to be able to save our atog and Horobi, but fortunately those two creatures can be saved by the spells we just introduced. That's some clever deckbuilding! (and also why we aren't using Auratog)

    Can Panharmonicons massively increase the amount of life gained, and break the cycle? No because all of the artifacts and enchantments in play are destroyed by the Child's tantrum, which immediately puts Iname's death trigger on the stack. Without flash or anything in play, we need to just let that resolve and give us just 3 life.

    Can we make Mimic Vat copies of the legends to kill them via legend rule? Yes but not profitably.
    If we kill the Child, we can put it on the vat, make a copy, then reanimate it with Goryo's vengance, and sacrifice the original to the legend rule, but then we either get the death trigger, which we could've gotten from a copy of Brace For Impact just as easily, and then make another vat copy, and get an additional death trigger, but not in a useful location on the stack.
    Iname is even worse as it has to exile itself to the trigger to reanimate something, so we can't get both that and a mimic vat copy.

    Is there anything I'm missing here?
    I think we are at like f_w^3 (life total/3) now?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos

    We start with Razorfin Abolisher in our hand. We sacrifice the Exposives to destroy the Jade Bearer. We get triggers from Mimic Vat and Verdant Succession. Resolve the Mimic Vat first, and imprint the Jade Bearer. Next, play Razorfin Abolisher and counter it, getting BM triggers, and returning it to the battlefield. We now tap the Mimic Vat, getting a Jade Bearer token. We target the Razorfin Abolisher and destroy it, imprinting it on a Mimic Vat. We create a token copy, then return it to the graveyard, returning Jade Bearer to the library at the same time. We use a Bloodbond March trigger to return the Abolisher to the battlefield. Then, we resolve the Verdant Succession trigger for Jade Bearer to return it to the battlefield. The Jade Bearer triggers, and we return the Abolisher to our hand.

    Yeah that seems to work, so many mimic vat tricks.

    As for sunburst, the comp rules have:
    702.43a Sunburst is a static ability that functions as an object is entering the battlefield from the
    stack. “Sunburst” means “If this object is entering the battlefield from the stack as a creature, it
    enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it. If this
    object is entering the battlefield from the stack and isn’t entering the battlefield as a creature, it
    enters the battlefield with a charge counter on it for each color of mana spent to cast it.”

    So march of the machines lets us cast and bounce the EE as a creature, if it is in hand, but once it is in the yard or exile, we can only get it with no counters until we bounce it with rebuild or Into Thin Air.

    Without infinite mana from Karn, I dont think we have enough mana. (especially from the start).
    In the very top of the stack, we are making a ton of mimic vat tokens of our enchantments. and each mimic vat activation costs 3, and skull costs 5 so we definitely need a good source of mana, we can make a bunch of Mana Crypts, but Mirrorworks costs 2, so making copies is not profitable, (Mana Vault might be enough though?)

    Hmm, I had been thinking we would want to get Mirrorworks onto the vat to be able to make an increasing number of mirrorworks (by recasting the original with a token in play), but that might not be needed with infinite mana, but perhaps would be needed as a way to make enough mana? (with march of the machines)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, it seems like those procedures aren't quite right? (as written they go infinite)

    The actual line is more like:
    we put a mirrorworks trigger for Vedalken Orrery on the stack. (rule 3) {we have the original and a mirrorworks token in play, use a metallurgion to bounce the original then replay it and get a mirrorworks trigger}
    we tap mimic vat and put a RFA in play (6f), we tap it to bounce Boggart mob via cowardice and get a bunch of psychic battle triggers. (6e)
    that gives us the goblin dark dwellers and we can recast battlecry and rebuild (6d). Battlecry refuels the Metallurgion stage above. (6a)
    Rebuild returns the EE but we can't get flash back until we resolve down to the Mirrorworks trigger (6b+c), so all of the extra possible triggers are useless. (we don't even have any mimic vats in play to get an instant speed creature)
    So we have to resolve down to the mirrorworks to be able to cast EE.

    Actually more optimal than my procedure is that we don't need to cast Rebuild with every goblin dark dwellers, just the last one, all the others can just cast Battle Cry. to get more metallurgion refills before we need EE again and lock flash?

    All that looks good so far
    I think my oversimplification of 6f and 6g was too much?

    EE for 1 gives us a bunch of JB triggers from panharmonicon and Psychic battle.
    But I dont think we get the efficiency of the Metallurgions.
    If we use a trigger to bounce RFA, we can recast it and get BBM triggers, but we cant target the RFA again yet, all the triggers are below it on the stack.
    If we use a trigger to put it on the vat, we can make a copy, but now we need a BBM trigger to save the original from exile/grave/library.

    So we need to cast RFA, then pop EE=1 then we can use JB to imprint and make a copy of RFA, and then need to resolve down to the BBM triggers to get it back to play.

    Which sounds all ok for preventing us from going infinite, but we need the RFA to start in hand for this, and it is ending in play, with no way of targeting it (all of the JB triggers have to resolve first). I think I am missing a some line around here?

    In summary: a small optimization
    6a. ---
    6b. --- (both rolled into 6d to eliminate redundancies, the excess Rs were useless)
    6d. Resolve a Mob to put R, AND/OR x BC on the stack.

    and idealized:
    6f*. lock EE to put gain one RFA
    6g. ---

    Of course this makes 6f even more oversimplified, but I think it is the step we want to implement. I'm just not sure if we have?

    (Oh, and Sunburst is weird: March of the machines would allow Engineered explosives to enter with +1/+1 counters and live, which seems dangerous. But the +1/+1 counters are instead of charge counters, so it can't boom for anything other than 0)

    Edit: oh and I forgot to add copy enchantment to the decklist, what do we cut for it?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah I was looking down the deck and then back to the start so I missed Rebuild, which you even mentioned in the earlier explanation.

    I'm pretty sure that boggart mob cant do anything more powerful than what I outlined, champion uses the old two triggers template like Oblivion Ring so all the panharmonicon triggers are pretty impotent.

    Jade bearer is a bit more tricky. The only clear possibility to an infinite I see is by using a mimic vat token targeting the original to somehow both make a new vat token and put the original back in play to be targeted again.

    Such a line would involve the following steps:
    Target the original, put it on vat, activate vat, in response kill the vat, mirror the original back from exile.
    But we can't get the original back to hand/play without a BM trigger (or Verdant Succession) but those triggers would be too low on the stack to be useable.

    Hmm, another thing I noticed: does Psychic Battle allows Goblin Dark Dwellers to potentially cast the same spell multiple times? No, all of the panharmonicon copies are targetted at the same time, so their PB triggers all go on top of all of the GDD triggers, so by the time we actually cast one from GDD there are no more PB triggers to play with. (and I dont think it even matters if we could)

    In terms of the # operations we have: (changed from I=input to M=Metallurgion to align with the other abbreviations, and using "Resolve a Z to..." instead of "Use one Z from the top of the stack to...")

    1. Spend one M to put x PB on the stack.
    2*. Resolve a PB to put x BM on the stack.
    3. Resolve a PB to increase x (and unlock flash).
    4. Resolve a PB then a BM immediately to generate one M.
    5. Use one BC from the top of the stack to gain x M.
    6a. Resolve a GDD-BC to put x BC on the stack
    6b. Resolve a GDD-R to put x R on the stack (one is sufficient the other x-1 do nothing)
    6c. Resolve R to unlock EE and destroy all M and lock flash
    6d. Resolve a Mob to put GDD-R, then GDD-BC on the stack. (we could do it in the other order but never do)
    6e*. Spend a RFA to put x Mob on the stack
    6f. resolve a JB to gain one RFA
    6g*. lock EE to put x JB on the stack

    * requires flash unlocked

    Which is a really convoluted way of implementing 6. (and 6f and 6g are oversimplified) but I think we get it done and have f_w^2

    Then the next section of the deck involves
    ... Resolve a ITA to unlock EE
    ... put x ITA on the stack

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Edit: Top of page so im reposting the decklist with the minor changes we discussed so far: (Cephalid Shrine and Reality Spasm)

    Well, thanks for your explanations, there are a lot of complicated interactions in these decks and you have been instrumental in furthering my understanding.

    So a few subtleties that make this combo work: once again we need to be making an extra Vedalken Orrery so that we have flash after a rebuild. This can be done with mirrorworks easily enough.
    Goblin Dark-Dwellers targets so even with mirror of fate shenanigans we can't get more than one casting of rebuild. (we'd like to be able to cast battle cry more but TYS still gives us enough copies)

    I'm not super good with all of the various interactions with Champion, but going through them seems like a good idea:
    lets say that we cast+counter Boggart Mob, we get some BBM triggers, (BloodBond March + Boggart Mob are both BMs)
    We use on to bring the Mob back and get Champion triggers.
    We can champion goblin dark dwellers and then sacrifice the mob to the second champion trigger.
    This puts the Mob in the yard for the next BBM trigger. This is sufficient for the combo.
    But this also means that we have a lot of champion triggers we don't use, and we can put the Mob on Mimic Vat to maybe get even more useful triggers, and possibly go infinite.
    Lets say we have a vat token about to enter play and the real mob in play, can we do anything super sneaky and go infinite? It looks like no, while we can champion both goblins, we can't really do more (we get two sets of goblin dark dweller ETBs instead of one, but still clearly finite).
    I dont think I'm missing anything else we can do with the champion triggers that seems particularly profitable?

    Once we run out of BBM triggers, we use a PB to bounce it and we get PBs via Razorfin Abolisher.
    So we need to keep tapping Razorfin Abolishers.

    We make more of them with Jade bearer, which can also target other copies of itself on ETB. (Dual Nature would go infinite)
    I think the fact that the counters makes them targetable by the Abolisher makes this tricky?
    But in order to get a counter we'd need to spend a Jade trigger, which could've bounced/killed the fish already.

    How are we getting the Explosives back to hand? Salvaging Station puts them into play with no counters, and they need to be a creature to be bounced but would be a 0/0 and die before that. (Oh, thats what Into thin Air is for?)

    Edit: Rebuild also bounces it >.<
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, destroying/bouncing vats is easy once we start tapping metallurgions, but before that it looks difficult.

    Karn allows for the infinite mana combo, which probably makes things easier, especially at the start. though if we need to go back to MotM for the Tribal Unity layer (infinite mana is fine, as long as we cant turn extra mana into extra damage, I'm ok with all infinites that don't turn into damage.)

    And yeah I meant the hyperstage, the Metallurgion+PB+BM stage is very similar (need to Mirror the real Metallurgion off the vat and then mill it with the Timepiece for the next BM trigger, but those are all very cheap actions).

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The issue with electrodominance is that it is not nearly as good at making a complex stack, as each copy would need to resolve to be able to put the next spell we want to cast on the stack.

    Adventures are probably going to play a key role as we would have 2 ways to recast the spell: either counter it and reshuffle it like normal, or let it fully resolve and bounce the creature. So something like Ionize and Noxious Grasp seems like maybe a start (Unfortunately, those don't quite balance in life payments (and eliminates any other way to make a bunch of green/white creatures such as quasiduplicate))

    Of course this all hinges on there being a good way to get things back from the graveyard, as we also lose Gaea's Blessing to the rotation (and The Mending of Dominaria too), and a better option is likely TBD.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Good catch Jkibbs, and welcome back.

    Thanks for the praise, and I'm really glad your observation between Saheeli and double face cards made it into the final deck because it is a super rare interaction and very nice.

    It is probably too early to look at new standard, though I am really glad we can finally make copies of TYS, (via Dance of the manse + quasiduplicate). But we lose a lot of the key support cards to the rotation (Omniscience).

    Probably starting a new thread will be better for organization, we don't want newcomers to have to delve through 30+ pages of outdated tech (after all that's what this thread is for, haha)

    As a Tribal Unity replacement, there is surprisingly little that is similar, Tribal Forcemage is like the only other card that does the same thing?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, sure, I suppose that's what's next. Looking at the #2013 deck again.

    Ok, so the basic structure is pretty similar, though using Karn, silver golem instead of March of the Machines. which means that animated artifacts stay creatures, and also that not everything is animated at the same time. This also means that noncreature artifacts can't enter as a creature. (Karn can only target noncreature artifacts so we are Cowardice safe {I think there might be a subtle rules issue here actually, but the cards in the deck don't run into it})

    Oh and we have Chalice of the void instead of Cephalid Shrine? That seems like it will be annoying to keep on the right values (though karn can kill it easily)

    And we don't have Dual Nature? How are we making copies of things? Just through Mimic Vat? It seems real hard to get enough vats(+Mirrorworks)

    We have infinite colorless via Karn+Mana Crypt+Salvaging Station. (and infinite Salvaging Station taps) Obelisk of Bant gives us all of the bant mana very cheaply. Also Tribal Unity seems like it probably goes infinite with infinite mana.

    We use Phantataog and Skull of Orim to turn metallurgion taps into enchantments. Though without Copy Enchantment we can't make copies of auras? (specifically Spellweaver Volute)

    The metallurgion stage looks complex, we are using Goblin dark dwellers to recast battle cry and Boggart Mob to get a bunch of the etb triggers. Boggart mob is a warrior and thanks to Bramblewood Paragon, can be targeted by Razorfin Abolisher who can be targeted by Jade Bearer's ETB. Verdant succession can also fetch the green creatures after they die.

    But the only way to kill the green creatures is Engineered Explosives, which requires a Rebuild to be able to put sunburst into it.

    I feel like that's a start, but not the full story of this stage quite yet?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Very nice explanation. It's probably cleaner to make all of the channel mana at once (4 life +16GG ->14GGGG ->1G->0 floating and 1 life)

    Quote from Deedlit11 »

    We hext exile the Perpetual Timepience, and put Genesis Wave and Black Lotus back into the library. We cycle the Rebuild to draw Genesis Wave, and we can cast Genesis Wave with X = 7. We get more than 10^^^^25 TYS triggers.

    This was the step I was missing, thanks!

    (also a lot of the optimizations)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah that does appear to be how the rules work with the helix, though not how I would have thought they worked. Very nice interaction for us.

    And good point about cycling, Rebuild appears to be the only option and it does allow us to double up the number of Genesis Wave draws. (we can make 60 zuberas and kill each of them without letting the draw triggers resolve to get 60x60 card draws).

    Though killing a zubera needs a bit of work actually, as we need haste and we only have access to the top ~19 permanents of the deck, the only sources of haste are goblin bushwhacker and mimic vat. Bushwacker is a no go due to not being kickable from genesis wave, and needing red from the Black Lotus in our graveyard.

    So we need to use Mimic vat, and imprint something that lets us target the zubera, but that creature needs haste too... and we are rapidly running out of our initial genesis wave cards. I had assumed that 19 or so would be easily enough to get started but it doesn't seem like quite enough?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ok, yeah, that works I was trying to use Natural Affinity to make it a creature then bounce it with cowardice, but that required the goblin gardeners and didn't seem right.
    And that way Worldpurge needs to resolve to get the life back, neatly implementing the gating structure between hyper-stages that we need. Though I think I am missing how we are recasting Geth's verdict. I thought that Panharmonicon was there to get double imprint triggers on Spellweaver Helix and cast both with one acorn harvest, but on rereading helix I'm not sure if that works? (Looks like it does?)

    Well the pieces definitely make more sense now. Getting started is not even too bad.

    Not optimal but a start like:
    black lotus island mox emerald channel leaves us with GGU19 floating and 3 cards in hand
    Rebuild washes 2U to G, and we have GGG17 and can Genesis Wave for as much as we need and still have a card like allay in hand.

    Shows that getting started is possible. (Though this way Hurkyl's Recall would be slightly better than rebuild, does the cycling matter?)

    I am now fairly confident that the deck in #2006 does not go infinite and gets to some F_{w^3+a}(x).

    And even more of the w^4 deck from #2013 is starting to make sense, though it is definitely more complex.
    Posted in: Magic General
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