Commander is aimed at the majority of players that don't engage with LGSs or organized play. That's who the banlist is set up for.
We are misaligned on what target audience means here. Yes the RC has a strong focus on kitchen-table style games, but they know those people can regulate themselves if there is an issue. The ban list is the best starting point for those groups, and the best place for people who don't belong to such a group to focus on.
People playing at a shop or GP with random folks have a place to build from. Of course a rule 0 discussion could be had, but the ban list preempts that unless purposely engaged. I meant 'target audience' as those who get the most from it. You mean who the RC builds rules for.
So what would change in the ban list, for your ideal state, if the target audience was LGS players?
What I mean by "target audience" is what target audience means.
If you're not part of the group who is in mind when something is built, you're not the target audience, even if you wind up using it. Adults may watch a kid's show, but that doesn't mean the adults are the target audience. Kids are who the show is made for; if an adult also happens to enjoy it, fine. But the show does not cater to the adult.
"Experience ruining" cards like Iona, Limited Resources, and Sundering Titan make sense for an LGS ban. As do "interacts poorly" cards like Worldfire and Coalition Victory. But "power level" cards like Recurring Nightmare and Gifts Ungiven do not.
So the intended audience has the banlist suited for them, but they're the ones who need it least. Whereas LGS players are not the target audience of the banlist, but they're the ones that have to play with it whether they want it or not.
I actually believe LGS and GP people are the 'target audience' for the ban list. If you look at the rest of what you said, it seems to slide right into place.
absolutely false
Quote from papa_funk on another forum »
But I am addressing your issue. You made a statement about the vast majority of Magic players with nothing to back it up other than "I've been to a few shops". I'm genuinely trying to understand how you can extrapolate from that when the vast, vast majority (there's plenty of debate about exactly how much, but likely over 95%) is not played in shops. As you say, there are hundreds of thousands of players playing. Extrapolating from one audience is going to give you a very strange picture of the format.
This is at the core of the problem. Commander is not a good format for shops and certainly not a good format for tournaments, and we've said this all along. We can't stop stores from trying to make a quick buck, but it's on them to make it a good experience. It represents a very small portion of the Commander audience.
I'm pretty much done with this topic. My main group has already adjusted the banlist to our own level.
Well, seeing as that's the entire point of the vision and discussing with your playgroup, if you guys have found something that is enjoyable and makes you all happy, then I'd say you've actually achieved a job well done.
that's the thing I don't get, though
The ban list is for the ground-level casual groups so that they get to kick back and sling cardboard without getting ambushed by sneaky good/overwhelming/meta-warping cards. LGS and cEDH players, while appreciated, are not the target audience.
Except the ground-level casual is the one who most likely plays with a steady group in a kitchen table environment, where the much-encouraged personalized rules can be discussed and implemented. Whereas LGS players overwhelmingly deal with the basic banlist without variation.
So the intended audience has the banlist suited for them, but they're the ones who need it least. Whereas LGS players are not the target audience of the banlist, but they're the ones that have to play with it whether they want it or not.
Is it possible Mardu Pyromancer would want a copy or two just to flash it back because it's a guilt-free discard to Faithless Looting and Bedlam Reveler?
At first glance I wasn't big on it, but when I think about it as usually just a better Ball Lightning, since it can't be blanked by a single lightning bolt, I guess it's okay.
Two bodies can very easily be worse when they're only 3 power and it's harder to fully trample over.
Losing two cards for surprise blockers may be sweet in limited but in constructed who cares? Three mana for a conditional six damage is eh especially considering the comparison to the new ball blightning thing.
The white force may not be gangbusters but this card is baaaaaaaad
The "if its not your turn" clause feels like it's only there to fit the cycle rather than because it's necessary for the card. If that clause is just there because of the blue one it seems like it could've just been omitted for the rest of the cycle without any loss.
The card's job is to squelch reanimator and Natural Order-type shenanigans, which can often occur before a proper response is otherwise possible. Removing its ability to respond to those plays profoundly weakens the card.
My meta is largely control and midrange. It's pretty nice.
Aggro can still get the job done but you need to have a focused deck and a good understanding of how to read a table. Most aggro players I run into in EDH have neither of these traits
They already brought Bolas back once, and that was after a complete story and character arc for the heroes involved. Don't bet on Bolas staying away forever.
Also, how was Bolas going to power up his Elderspell with only three casualties? Or is the story full of dead Sirs and Madams Not Appearing On Cards?
Ghosts she freed (Ethereal Absolution) secretly were Ravnica's defense forces, and after facing some economic problems after freeing all debt slaves, Kaya just decided to rise up the taxes - and it caused massive upheavals and more casualties, weakening the plane overall right before the invasion (Smothering Tithe). Enough?
Enough? Of course not. She followed a plan to take power, what she did was under manipulation, and once she realized what the real consequences were she flipped sides. Might as well get angry at Ral for his part in the plan even though, again, he flipped once he realized what the real consequences were.
Okay, the card is pretty decent and I love Kaya, so I have a fairly positive opinion about this card. However, I thought we were done with the Gatewatch after this story arc?
On the bright side, though, her oath quote is just badass.
It's very bold to say something like this after NOT facing any backlash from what she did to Orzhov while being a Bolas agent. I don't even. This just feels so wrong.
? The Council was a corrupt entity feeding on the weak. No one in-universe mourns them. Why should they? They were ghostly robber barons entrenched in power. Teysa, at least, is more willing to play ball with other guilds and will be better for the plane moving forward.
Just think what it would take for Chandra to get heavy PTSD as seen in the comics, when all she had to do after Zendikar was sleep it off and getting her ass beaten by Bolas only made her stronger. Someone's gonna pay and the price will be high.
Or -- and stay with me now -- the story is weak and is limping to a mediocre conclusion
It's a good thing a lot of these cards are dope because the story is not nearly on that level
What I mean by "target audience" is what target audience means.
If you're not part of the group who is in mind when something is built, you're not the target audience, even if you wind up using it. Adults may watch a kid's show, but that doesn't mean the adults are the target audience. Kids are who the show is made for; if an adult also happens to enjoy it, fine. But the show does not cater to the adult.
"Experience ruining" cards like Iona, Limited Resources, and Sundering Titan make sense for an LGS ban. As do "interacts poorly" cards like Worldfire and Coalition Victory. But "power level" cards like Recurring Nightmare and Gifts Ungiven do not.
absolutely false
link
Commander is aimed at the majority of players that don't engage with LGSs or organized play. That's who the banlist is set up for.
that's the thing I don't get, though
The ban list is for the ground-level casual groups so that they get to kick back and sling cardboard without getting ambushed by sneaky good/overwhelming/meta-warping cards. LGS and cEDH players, while appreciated, are not the target audience.
Except the ground-level casual is the one who most likely plays with a steady group in a kitchen table environment, where the much-encouraged personalized rules can be discussed and implemented. Whereas LGS players overwhelmingly deal with the basic banlist without variation.
So the intended audience has the banlist suited for them, but they're the ones who need it least. Whereas LGS players are not the target audience of the banlist, but they're the ones that have to play with it whether they want it or not.
it's funny, that's all
Two bodies can very easily be worse when they're only 3 power and it's harder to fully trample over.
Losing two cards for surprise blockers may be sweet in limited but in constructed who cares? Three mana for a conditional six damage is eh especially considering the comparison to the new ball blightning thing.
The white force may not be gangbusters but this card is baaaaaaaad
The card's job is to squelch reanimator and Natural Order-type shenanigans, which can often occur before a proper response is otherwise possible. Removing its ability to respond to those plays profoundly weakens the card.
Aggro can still get the job done but you need to have a focused deck and a good understanding of how to read a table. Most aggro players I run into in EDH have neither of these traits
Also, how was Bolas going to power up his Elderspell with only three casualties? Or is the story full of dead Sirs and Madams Not Appearing On Cards?
Enough? Of course not. She followed a plan to take power, what she did was under manipulation, and once she realized what the real consequences were she flipped sides. Might as well get angry at Ral for his part in the plan even though, again, he flipped once he realized what the real consequences were.
? The Council was a corrupt entity feeding on the weak. No one in-universe mourns them. Why should they? They were ghostly robber barons entrenched in power. Teysa, at least, is more willing to play ball with other guilds and will be better for the plane moving forward.
Or -- and stay with me now -- the story is weak and is limping to a mediocre conclusion
It's a good thing a lot of these cards are dope because the story is not nearly on that level