Hey guys sorry I haven't been able to post like I said I would. I have had a really crazy week.
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However, I have made some interesting realizations.
I will try to post tomorrow.
None of them return the entity of your graveyard to your hand though. So you lose out on one iteration of the deck per casting (and copies thereof). Mayne we can use some of those to fill out the deck though.
Also even if any of those did, I would still think that doublecast and bonus round could beat it.
I will make an actual theory craft post soon (maybe this weekend, maybe not until Monday).
Also I am just realizing life link doesnt work because vigor is a replacement effect so that portion of it is less better but still the best mana generation by far.
Also since that portion doesnt work all biomancers should go to the end of of the wave.
Actually I disagree since each djinn can only copy the spell a number of times equal to the mana you can pump into at the time.
Double cast + bonus round (which btw doesnt take any cards out the deck as we are 55) also gets recast every iteration of the deck, at an arbitrarily more larger life total to copy double casts.
TYS doesnt come even close because it is limited by the number of permanents we have, but our life far surpassed that long ago. Doublecast and bonus round Re limited by life, which has an incrimental exponential growth each step of the deck.
My point is this:
Double cast + bonus round will get a 3:2 ratio for time twisters (compared to just djinn), an 8:2 for preators, 2 7:2 ratios for 2 ETT, 6:2 for another and 5:2 for the last (with 4 copies of each) and that's just the number of copies you get for that iteration, and as with the just djinn strategy, it grows even bigger each time.
The thing is that you get that many more copies and then get to reiterate the TT part that many more times, which causes our life to grow that many more times, which causes the number of doublecast + bonus round grows that much more as well (times the number of extra TT).
I am pretty sure that copying each spell that many more times will make up for kissing out on one spell slot (which currently even that isn't an issue)
Now if you could find a way to fill the remaining 5 slots with ETT, I may consider that would be better.
You are definitely right about Rowan, but I am confident that doesn't matter.
Yea life as I see it would grow the most with the following:
Other creatures:highest power to lowest-> cats until you can alternate between one cat and one avatar (with all mizziums changed to become avatars), again highest to lowest -> biomancer, you guessed it, highest to lowest.
I believe that this would result in the largest creatures for the future, which yields larger life gains and more powerful biomancers.
However, there may be some merit to only hitting one biomancer at the end and the rest at the end of the other creature phase.
I understand now.
You are saying that adding double cast and bonus round PLUS TYS would be a bad idea because adding it to that would at best be a 100% increase.
I however am not fully convinced that TYS is the better option over DC + BR
Every instant and sorcery you cast gives you a counter on each of TYS. Now you can have an arbitrarily large number of them and I would care because it's (13+z)x where z is the number of times you cast WSZ, but the amount of mana you gain from a casting of CC is (y^y/2)X where y is the total number of permanents you own, and x is the same arbitrarily large number as TYS (in MEs, give or take a few 0s.
And that's just from ME which is actually a small amount of mana compared to what you could generate because of Sanctum of the Sun. Because your life total will be increased far more than anything else (each of your permanents is a creature which pushes into your WSZ tokens, which have life link,then end by alternating between the cats (life link) and Serra avatar (life total in damage and therefore counters), ending with a cat all before before smacking Into master biomancer to increase the next damage wave, all copied Rowan^Rowan times.) And when it's time you use an amount (might only be 1 because of the ludicrous compounding exponential life gain)of your Sanctums to generate your life total in mana (copied Rowan ^Rowan times). That number divided by 2 is the number of extra times you get to copy TT.
Don't go saying that you'll get extra casts of CC with TYS because those extra casts are inconsiquential compared to the number generated by PG.
TLDR: Life total gains will grow so much more than anything else this game, Diublecast + bonus round instead of TYS.
I argue that 1000 quinticilion copies of a spell (and that's a vast underestimate of the FIRST TT, not even ETT) is worth way more than one copy of that spell. What you aren't realizing is that 16 copies of ETT gets TT back 16 times none of them are copied. Take 2 out and you have 14 ETT, with double cast and bonus round. I cast the combo for 2 bonus rounds. Now I cast TT. I get 3 TTs and so in the 1st one I get that count to 6 bonus rounds, the second TT it goes to 14 and then in the third I get 30. So then I cast my FIRST ETT and get 30 copies, which is more than you even started with. and in each of those I get to cast the combo again.
That's life without replicate, which makes those numbers even higher.
(and I didn't even go into how your life total in mana times the number of lands you have is also added into the mix)
So no, let's not find more ETTs, lets find ways to copy them.
Also you ETTs cost a bit more than 3, and doublecast only costs 2, again without doublecast and bonus round it's a 2:3 ratio, adding it increases the number of ALL Instant and sorcery spells by 50% (well really more, that's just based on TT and CC)
Let's put an analogy to this, if someone offered you 1 billion dollars, but you had to use my 2 cards, or $666,666,666.666. Which one would you take? Especially since the 1 billion dollars gets the same interest rate as the lesser amount (except the billion dollars ALSO gets more days in a year).you are telling me that a 50% increase, plus interest would be worth less than 666,666,666.666, or a "not really a big deal?"
But you cant use fork. So use doublecast. Also its doublecast plus Bonus Round. You cast double cast and replicate it, then cast Bonus Round, bam all your instant and soreceries are copied. So your adding x iterations to every spell you cast each time you cast the 2, which because you get to copy timetwister x times, you get x^x (actually its more than that because every casting of doupblecast gets copied again for each previously cast double round, which is also copied that many times again) more copies on the next timetwister cast.
Timetwister is the way to go.
Edit: Let me put it another way. The number of double cast replicates that can be had towards the end of a playthrough (the number of permanents you control raised to the power of the number of permanents you just out into play, which with CC is all of them). That number divided by 2 is the number of times you will be able you copy your Bonus round. Which will then copy every other instant and sorcery you cast. So that's how many TT is worth one playthrough.
Now if you are arguing that 4 TYS might be a better fit? Then I argue 4 Bonus Round with a single doublecast would be at least comparable if not better. Throw in more double casts and then...
I say throw them all in and take out a number of ETTs to get you top 60 because the copies will be worth more than any single card
Also if your argument is that rikku can just copy the spell, well that's limited by how many rikkus you have (way less than your mana, which by the way increases even more when you get more ME through CC) and if you think a 2/3 ratio from djinn is insignificant when talking about the number of copies you can cast that get you future copies, especially when the number of permanents is going to be in the.... rediculos (seriously I know nothing about this arrow notation) then you ^x that number and that's how much mana you have..... well if you think a 2/3 ratio is insignificant at that level, then I have 0 words.
Fork (or other variations) cannot be used with with any TT variant (including praetors) because of the whole infinite combo thing.
I cast praetors. I cast fork. It resolves. It copies praetors. Fork goes back to my hand.... etc etc
Edit: you may not have seen my second edit above also
Also it's worth pointing out that time twister does not only get us back runic repetitions, it literally rest our entire non token board (since we copied everything, we have zounds token copies of every permanent) thopter engine sacs every non token permanent, which gets shuffled in and we start again. So every iteration of time twister is another iteration of the entire game, except with all of those token copies out, which means every single permanent card gets played again, copied via rikku, and then umpteened by the doubling seasons. All the while generating more mana than we know what to do with except replicate our spells
Edit: ood point on doublecast, it won't be able to be included in the deck with timetwister, but I think timetwister is still the best option for the above reasons? Idk would require so much number crunching.
Edit edit: I take that back, doublecast only copies the next spell you cast, so you cant go infinite with it. Yes you can get back timetwister with an ETT, but that's the point of the ETTs. They allow you to get timetwister back and then start over again, but they are limited by the number of ETT iterations. I am 99% sure you cannot go infinite with doublecast, it's not fork
I am sorry to say we cannot use reitterate.... it can cause us to go infinite with a single casting of CC... which is why I suggested double cast instead (besides buyback is 3, replicate is 2)
Sage's knowledge is a step back from timetwister with things like thousand year storm and bonus round as all of those copies go on the stack as you cast it. Timetwister is the better choice because it gets you all of the cards you need back each time it resolves, not just one.
Also I think biomancer should be moved to the end of doubling season. You will get so much more of an increase at this point.
You would get 30 counters total playing it where it stands up to doubling season... and not going to do the math but casting after doubling season, with 11 doubling seasons... well the first wave would get none. The second wave would get 2^11, the third wave would get 2^11^2^11,etc until 11 waves... Plus the original. And that's assuming the ETBs don't see each other (which I forget if they do)
Since you have no land or cmc 0 at this point, since mana cost is a copiable trait (202.3a), you don't need it so early.
Edit: never mind my initial edit edit comments, added stuff on sage's
I Apologize if you have addressed any of this already
Okay so the below doesn't work UNLLESS you use Mizzium Transreliquatwhich you should use anyways.... I thought it was what you were using.... trust me 3 mana per iteration is way better than 2 when you look at what you get.
Say you cast a non instant or sorcerery (which until WSZ, you are doing, aside from MM, which you do not copy). You would want to have ALL of your mizzium be rikkus, so that you can trigger the copy for each of them, then you will want all of them to transform to (ttt) doubling seasons(DS) before those token generating triggers resolve, so you will need the mana after each token resolution. This would result in x*2^x copies (with an *, see below) where x is the number of mizzium copies you have (assuming the original will always be blinked to generate more tokens (which would also cost more mana ttt DS)) so.... lets do math.....
3x ttt rikku, 2x for each rikku trigger, 2x for each rikku tirgger caused by mizzium blink, 3x+3 (the original should become DS for the time being) ALL of this per time Rikku triggers, but each token coming into play gets you mana, so it's not a problem.
then things get compicated...
Because for THE FIRST mizzium rikku copy resolution,you will get 2^x copies of mizzium which can then be turned into DS, resulting in cumulatively 2^x more DS each rikku trigger.... but, with a single ME you will get 2^t^t (where t= the number of tokens created) mana.... which is more mana than you need by far for that iteration and it also cumulatively gets bigger...
SO... a single ME is fine no matter how many rikkus you would end up with. As long as you have at least 10x mana to start with. Which after casting mirror itself, should be no problem (you will get 16 tokens, resulting in 16^2 mana)
SO this also breaks your 1/2 rule (in half hahaha, but seriously have as many copies of rikku as you want)
ALSO
In your WSZ explanation you say that would need 0 mana when it goes on the stack, causing original mirror to blink, assumsing you to gain x mana, where x is the number of tokens you control.... which would always be more then twice the number of mirrors you control because the final mirrors become more doubling seasons and raise the number of tokens created by the original spell by... let's just say a huge exponent of 2, causing you to generate that much more mana....
SO nevermind lol.
But how many tokens would a single casting of a non instant/sorcery generate...? Well....let's find out... in a future post.
*technically this would be it be x*2^(x+z) where z is the number of original doubling seasons an tokens you have.. at this point it's 3, but future iterations could change that. So I have excluded all non mirror doubling seasons from the equation.
TLDR: Use Mizzium Transreliquat instead of mirror.
Rikku can has all of the copies. And it makes your mana grow more exponentially.
Edit:minor spelling fixes.
Also to save from double post:
More card ideas: Doublecast(replicated to high heaven of course) into Bonus Round with these 2 cards also shuffling in when you spiral, they will grow 2^x and then also your replicates.
Also Thousand-year Storm will get some copies of instants and sorceries but not that many... but wait if you make copies of thousand year storm you will get more copies...
I
However, I have made some interesting realizations.
I will try to post tomorrow.
Also even if any of those did, I would still think that doublecast and bonus round could beat it.
I will make an actual theory craft post soon (maybe this weekend, maybe not until Monday).
Also I am just realizing life link doesnt work because vigor is a replacement effect so that portion of it is less better but still the best mana generation by far.
Also since that portion doesnt work all biomancers should go to the end of of the wave.
Double cast + bonus round (which btw doesnt take any cards out the deck as we are 55) also gets recast every iteration of the deck, at an arbitrarily more larger life total to copy double casts.
TYS doesnt come even close because it is limited by the number of permanents we have, but our life far surpassed that long ago. Doublecast and bonus round Re limited by life, which has an incrimental exponential growth each step of the deck.
My point is this:
Double cast + bonus round will get a 3:2 ratio for time twisters (compared to just djinn), an 8:2 for preators, 2 7:2 ratios for 2 ETT, 6:2 for another and 5:2 for the last (with 4 copies of each) and that's just the number of copies you get for that iteration, and as with the just djinn strategy, it grows even bigger each time.
The thing is that you get that many more copies and then get to reiterate the TT part that many more times, which causes our life to grow that many more times, which causes the number of doublecast + bonus round grows that much more as well (times the number of extra TT).
I am pretty sure that copying each spell that many more times will make up for kissing out on one spell slot (which currently even that isn't an issue)
Now if you could find a way to fill the remaining 5 slots with ETT, I may consider that would be better.
Yea life as I see it would grow the most with the following:
Other creatures:highest power to lowest-> cats until you can alternate between one cat and one avatar (with all mizziums changed to become avatars), again highest to lowest -> biomancer, you guessed it, highest to lowest.
I believe that this would result in the largest creatures for the future, which yields larger life gains and more powerful biomancers.
However, there may be some merit to only hitting one biomancer at the end and the rest at the end of the other creature phase.
You are saying that adding double cast and bonus round PLUS TYS would be a bad idea because adding it to that would at best be a 100% increase.
I however am not fully convinced that TYS is the better option over DC + BR
Every instant and sorcery you cast gives you a counter on each of TYS. Now you can have an arbitrarily large number of them and I would care because it's (13+z)x where z is the number of times you cast WSZ, but the amount of mana you gain from a casting of CC is (y^y/2)X where y is the total number of permanents you own, and x is the same arbitrarily large number as TYS (in MEs, give or take a few 0s.
And that's just from ME which is actually a small amount of mana compared to what you could generate because of Sanctum of the Sun. Because your life total will be increased far more than anything else (each of your permanents is a creature which pushes into your WSZ tokens, which have life link,then end by alternating between the cats (life link) and Serra avatar (life total in damage and therefore counters), ending with a cat all before before smacking Into master biomancer to increase the next damage wave, all copied Rowan^Rowan times.) And when it's time you use an amount (might only be 1 because of the ludicrous compounding exponential life gain)of your Sanctums to generate your life total in mana (copied Rowan ^Rowan times). That number divided by 2 is the number of extra times you get to copy TT.
Don't go saying that you'll get extra casts of CC with TYS because those extra casts are inconsiquential compared to the number generated by PG.
TLDR: Life total gains will grow so much more than anything else this game, Diublecast + bonus round instead of TYS.
That's life without replicate, which makes those numbers even higher.
(and I didn't even go into how your life total in mana times the number of lands you have is also added into the mix)
So no, let's not find more ETTs, lets find ways to copy them.
Also you ETTs cost a bit more than 3, and doublecast only costs 2, again without doublecast and bonus round it's a 2:3 ratio, adding it increases the number of ALL Instant and sorcery spells by 50% (well really more, that's just based on TT and CC)
Let's put an analogy to this, if someone offered you 1 billion dollars, but you had to use my 2 cards, or $666,666,666.666. Which one would you take? Especially since the 1 billion dollars gets the same interest rate as the lesser amount (except the billion dollars ALSO gets more days in a year).you are telling me that a 50% increase, plus interest would be worth less than 666,666,666.666, or a "not really a big deal?"
Timetwister is the way to go.
Edit: Let me put it another way. The number of double cast replicates that can be had towards the end of a playthrough (the number of permanents you control raised to the power of the number of permanents you just out into play, which with CC is all of them). That number divided by 2 is the number of times you will be able you copy your Bonus round. Which will then copy every other instant and sorcery you cast. So that's how many TT is worth one playthrough.
Now if you are arguing that 4 TYS might be a better fit? Then I argue 4 Bonus Round with a single doublecast would be at least comparable if not better. Throw in more double casts and then...
I say throw them all in and take out a number of ETTs to get you top 60 because the copies will be worth more than any single card
Also if your argument is that rikku can just copy the spell, well that's limited by how many rikkus you have (way less than your mana, which by the way increases even more when you get more ME through CC) and if you think a 2/3 ratio from djinn is insignificant when talking about the number of copies you can cast that get you future copies, especially when the number of permanents is going to be in the.... rediculos (seriously I know nothing about this arrow notation) then you ^x that number and that's how much mana you have..... well if you think a 2/3 ratio is insignificant at that level, then I have 0 words.
I cast praetors. I cast fork. It resolves. It copies praetors. Fork goes back to my hand.... etc etc
Edit: you may not have seen my second edit above also
Edit:
ood point on doublecast, it won't be able to be included in the deck with timetwister, but I think timetwister is still the best option for the above reasons? Idk would require so much number crunching.Edit edit: I take that back, doublecast only copies the next spell you cast, so you cant go infinite with it. Yes you can get back timetwister with an ETT, but that's the point of the ETTs. They allow you to get timetwister back and then start over again, but they are limited by the number of ETT iterations. I am 99% sure you cannot go infinite with doublecast, it's not fork
Sage's knowledge is a step back from timetwister with things like thousand year storm and bonus round as all of those copies go on the stack as you cast it. Timetwister is the better choice because it gets you all of the cards you need back each time it resolves, not just one.
Also I think biomancer should be moved to the end of doubling season. You will get so much more of an increase at this point.
You would get 30 counters total playing it where it stands up to doubling season... and not going to do the math but casting after doubling season, with 11 doubling seasons... well the first wave would get none. The second wave would get 2^11, the third wave would get 2^11^2^11,etc until 11 waves... Plus the original. And that's assuming the ETBs don't see each other (which I forget if they do)
Since you have no land or cmc 0 at this point, since mana cost is a copiable trait (202.3a), you don't need it so early.
Edit: never mind my initial edit edit comments, added stuff on sage's
I Apologize if you have addressed any of this already
Okay so the below doesn't work UNLLESS you use Mizzium Transreliquatwhich you should use anyways.... I thought it was what you were using.... trust me 3 mana per iteration is way better than 2 when you look at what you get.
Say you cast a non instant or sorcerery (which until WSZ, you are doing, aside from MM, which you do not copy). You would want to have ALL of your mizzium be rikkus, so that you can trigger the copy for each of them, then you will want all of them to transform to (ttt) doubling seasons(DS) before those token generating triggers resolve, so you will need the mana after each token resolution. This would result in x*2^x copies (with an *, see below) where x is the number of mizzium copies you have (assuming the original will always be blinked to generate more tokens (which would also cost more mana ttt DS)) so.... lets do math.....
3x ttt rikku, 2x for each rikku trigger, 2x for each rikku tirgger caused by mizzium blink, 3x+3 (the original should become DS for the time being) ALL of this per time Rikku triggers, but each token coming into play gets you mana, so it's not a problem.
then things get compicated...
Because for THE FIRST mizzium rikku copy resolution,you will get 2^x copies of mizzium which can then be turned into DS, resulting in cumulatively 2^x more DS each rikku trigger.... but, with a single ME you will get 2^t^t (where t= the number of tokens created) mana.... which is more mana than you need by far for that iteration and it also cumulatively gets bigger...
SO... a single ME is fine no matter how many rikkus you would end up with. As long as you have at least 10x mana to start with. Which after casting mirror itself, should be no problem (you will get 16 tokens, resulting in 16^2 mana)
SO this also breaks your 1/2 rule (in half hahaha, but seriously have as many copies of rikku as you want)
ALSO
In your WSZ explanation you say that would need 0 mana when it goes on the stack, causing original mirror to blink, assumsing you to gain x mana, where x is the number of tokens you control.... which would always be more then twice the number of mirrors you control because the final mirrors become more doubling seasons and raise the number of tokens created by the original spell by... let's just say a huge exponent of 2, causing you to generate that much more mana....
SO nevermind lol.
But how many tokens would a single casting of a non instant/sorcery generate...? Well....let's find out... in a future post.
*technically this would be it be x*2^(x+z) where z is the number of original doubling seasons an tokens you have.. at this point it's 3, but future iterations could change that. So I have excluded all non mirror doubling seasons from the equation.
TLDR: Use Mizzium Transreliquat instead of mirror.
Rikku can has all of the copies. And it makes your mana grow more exponentially.
Edit:minor spelling fixes.
Also to save from double post:
More card ideas:
Doublecast(replicated to high heaven of course) into Bonus Round with these 2 cards also shuffling in when you spiral, they will grow 2^x and then also your replicates.
Also Thousand-year Storm will get some copies of instants and sorceries but not that many... but wait if you make copies of thousand year storm you will get more copies...