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  • posted a message on Most damage without going infinite (Standard version)
    great work on this guys!

    been preoccupied with non magic things lately but still stop by this and the vintage challenge regularly. hopefully i'll get back to making vintage lists again.

    a few observations though on this challenge.

    1) pretty sure highland lake(both instances) needs to be sulfur falls if you guys want to go off turn 3, if you are ok with turn 4, that brings up another issue

    2) if we don't go off on t3 we go infinite with the current list t4 or later(after the land swaps enabling t3). so if we go t4 we see 10 cards naturally instead of 9, and this difference alone is enough to do it. we could still go infinite t3 if we take the draw instead of the play getting to see our 10th card on t3. we do it by playing the same first 8 cards as normal, getting omniscience in play. then we cast TYS as card 9 and either gaea's blessing or warlord's fury as card 10. this gets us 1 original and 2 copies from TYS drawing us 3 cards. with these draws we can draw emergency powers, a counter(edit: this has to be disdainful stroke or its bound by life), and then literally anything else. we can then cast EP, getting its copies, and then with a copy of EP on the stack still we counter the original letting our counter and EP shuffle back in to be drawn again.

    3)(possibly an issue) so i think you might have another issue anyway. as we up our TYS count we will get to the point where casting warlord's fury will draw all of our deck. i think as this draw engine grows it will come to a point where it allows us the draw the sphinx and cleansing nova post reshuffle. if we can do this it allows us to go infinite a different way. if we just cast sphinx and the nova(wrath) we don't get rid of omniscience and can reshuffle both when we mill blessing. then we cast fury and redraw (via WLF) all the pieces and repeat. we can even get rid of omniscience at some point and then get it back and recast if off mana we generate off multiple castings of gyre engineer as we draw and blow up the board time and time again. both issues 2 and 3 lead to infinite TYS counts which make our damage unbound. also on a similar note, as we up the TYS count we might be able to use blessing to recur itself. we do this with ionize by casting blessing, hold priority to respond to TYS trigger and the counter the original, before the copies are created and need targets, and then use the copies to pick it, and everything else, back up. i guess we are bound by life with this loop, so it might be ok. haven't dug too far into it yet.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    ah, nuts lol

    RSK still works via inexorable tide(modified, but it works), but FS+SS definitely doesn't work ..... actually, almost none of the layers work without color ... hmmm, guess i got a lot of work to do ... (sigh) ....
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    so i tried doing mana layers and i just got frustrated. so what i did do is revisit the longest chains i had made so far. it's still missing the exile loop but i'm sure i can fit it in here somewhere. i re-worked the start to open up playing other colors as restrictions/ways to chain. it starts much slower but gets where it needs to, and actually works properly this time. think i'm just gonna work on this list for awhile while i continue to learn the in's and out's of layers etc. plus not being all red should open up some interesting lines for me to look into while i try to extend this deck further.

    1 Black Lotus
    2 Show and tell
    3 Omniscience
    - i needabyssal persecutor in here, just to lazy to change all the numbers -
    4 enter the infinite - we draw our deck
    5 Mycosynth lattice - enters nothing happens
    6 vedalken orrery - now we operate at instant speed
    7 mirrorworks - so this will be useful for getting some non creature tokens, and does add more value to non token creatures entering too
    8,9 Doubling season, mana crypt - we play DS and then with the MW trigger on the stack we play mana crypt. we let crypt resolve and pay for the MW triggers w/ crytp itelf. we get 2 more crypts. we use 1 of those to pay for the MW triggers for DS, we get 2 more DS tokens.
    10 Runaway steam-kin - we get MW trigger and use our last avalible crypt to pay for it, getting 8 more RSK.
    11 thousand-year storm - each RSK gets 8 counters each. we pull 6 counters off of each getting 54 mana, and leaving 3 counters on each RSK, and we now have our spell doubler
    12 inexorable tide - we use 2 mana we pay for the MW trigger, we get 8 more copies of IT as tokens.
    13 Vitu-ghazi guildmage -when we cast this we get 9 proliferate triggers netting us 8 mana per RSK per trigger netting 8*9*9 mana. we now have the populate engine online(well sort of. making us more RSK doens't do us a lot of good. its only a good idea to make more RSK if we are abut to cast a red spell to get counters on them we can proliferate in the first place). we remove the most counters we can from each RSK(without dropping below 1 counter) and then turn those into populate waves(PW). all but the last of these waves will be making DS and the last will be making more IT copies. we will be repeating this process as we cast spells for a bit.
    14 mirror gallery - cool so now we can have multiples of legendary stuff
    15 karn, silver golem - so now we can turn anything into a creature that isn't already, which then allows us to populate those once we can get a token copy of them.
    16 puresteel paladin - not important to make copies of this but we want to go as wide as possible so we should pay for all MW triggers.
    17 leonin shikari - so now we can move equipment around at instant speed to whatever creature it is most beneficial to do so.
    18 illusionist's bracers - so things are gonna get a bit weird here. we actually will save all counters from our proliferate engine and just let IB resolve. so we use 2 of that mana and pay for our MW trigger. we get a lot of IB. we equip the original and all but one of the new copies to VGG. the one token we didn't equip we animate via Karn. now we start making PW at 4 mana a clip. each activation will get an amount of copies of the ability equal to the IBs on VGG. all of these except the last will be making DS, and the last will make IB. we will equip the IB to VGG and activate our next PW, repeating the process until we are out of mana(again leaving counters on all RSKs). this is our new updated updating process. it will be this way unless we are moving into cast a red spell, and the only change will be our very last populate ability will make RSK instead of DS or bracers(we still make IB too so we basically lose 1 populate abilities worth of DS making if we are going move to casting a red spell).
    19 precursor golem - yup
    20 arcane adaptation - now we make all creatures golems and any targeted spell will scale to our current board state
    21 thopter engineer -(red spell modified procedure here) we have haste, and an added body to boot
    22 boon reflection - our life gain can now be super powered(maybe i need cradle of vitality to make this a full layer?)
    23 goblin bombardment -(red spell) we now have a sac outlet(we can just point this at our own stuff for the time being)
    24 firesong and sunspeaker(FS+SS) -(red spell) so this makes our red damage spells better. this card allows me to get 2 separate loops out of 1 spell.
    25 chandra's phoenix(CP) -(red spell) we will play this out and then sac off all token copies first and then the original.
    26 darksteel forge - our creatures are now indestructible
    27 harness the storm - (red spell)
    28 willbender -
    29 ixidron - now our harness loop is up and running
    30,31 fiery confluence -(red spell) so we will actually choose all 3 modes on each of the castings of this spell. this means because of how its worded(there is only 1 target) that golem will spread this spell. because of FS+SS it also has lifelink. so we get a ton of stuff going on here. we get a loop going with CP for a bit of damage and cast trigger(and we can make more RSK that will have counters) and a bunch of life. we will resolve our first CP loop and then resolve our first life gain trigger. before we let the next stuff resolve though we will introduce another thing we can loop.
    32 wydwen, the biting gale - so now we can see that for each life we gain we will be able to loop castings of WBG. this we can do for each instance of life gain and an amount of times equal to the amount of life we gained. so we cast WBG and get ready to loop some more. but we just cast a multicolored spell so lets loop off that too. as with CP we will be sac'ing of our extra token copies of WBG to bombardment to get some value out of them.
    33 lobber crew - so right now this is where my loop ends. every time we cast WBG we untap our army of lobbers and hit for some damage. this is as far as i've gotten. i had another layer after this(well 2 actually) but i found an infinite so i'm back to this point. untapping crew has to be able to better than just 1 damage(or bracers/rings amount of damage). i'm still looking for options but i'm sure i can move past this.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    ah, yeah i guess that's true. it's not a layer(well layer adding layer anyway)so no matter how potent it feels that additional value will just disappear as we get into deeper and deeper layers.

    i think i might kinda work a bit backwards here and see if i can get some mana layers out of the deck in an effort to see if we can't get a bit more segregation. hopefully that opens a few doors for layer past where i am currently.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    well the end goal of C is to make more BR which then feed into YB. the last of the C triggers from the very last life gain event will be stuck just making DS/RSK/IB(or something else entirely) but all of them before that can directly(ish) make more BR in some capacity. the DS creation is used to fuel the BR creation in this case not the other way around. i could just make straight BR copies but it's a far better usage of mana to go w/ populate amplification->DS making->BR making instead. again i do get 1 set of C triggers that i can't wrap back into the last life gain event but it's not like that mana will go to waste as i can use it to make whatever permanent benefits me the most for whatever action/spell is coming next anyway(of course proceeded by making a bunch of DS before we do that). while it is a a lower layer this last "bad" batch of C triggers will more be an added bonus that will likely disappear at higher layers. the fact through all of this that i happen to make more DS as a means to an end is just an added bonus. making more life will make far more DS than anything else i could do so i am trying to use my best tools to do that, one of which happens to be DS creation, which happens to have added benefit to the rest of my board state as the deck works its way through it's paces
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    the BC thing is sort of right, but more C = even more potent C triggers all off the same life gain event as we can turn 1 C trigger into many DS(between C triggers resolving via RSK counters) which make many our next C trigger far more potent and we can loop these the same fashion increasing the C potency down the whole series we get per life gain event. when we max out on RSK counter making off our C triggers(to make the remaining C triggers better) we can then update our number of C and BR before our next life gain event happens to power the whole process up even further. while we could do most of this without BR we wouldn't be able to change the raw amount of life gained, it would just make that life event a bit more profitable to our board state. with BR we get board state and life gain updates between each life gain event which makes our life gain f(x and l) rather than just xl where l is the length of the series. adding BR allows us to manipulate the raw life gain amount, which is very important at the YB level. i don't think it's a layer, but i do think it's part of the same chain. also C is operating at a trigger level event that is not implicitly tied to a casting event, where everything else i do is strictly tied to casting events starting them. not sure that last part means anything just yet, but it can't hurt to get more than just casting triggers going on within the same larger chain.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    i mean even within that set of interactions it still allows me to gain more life which in turn makes more +1/+1 counters off each cradle i have(and/or choose to make). then on top of that i get to dump more life back into YB. without BR i can't update my life gain, which i want to be able to do to maximize my YB loops. without it i'm stuck on just gaining whatever amount of life i would normally gain, say 2x(x+x) over a 2 instance event, where w/ BR it's way way way more than that(like x + x^? ... not sure on the actual math here).

    in a way YB and CoV kinda compete for who gets to abuse the life gain first but in the end i don't think it matters which one goes first. whoever uses the life gain event first just makes sure at the end of their loop cycle they update whichever looping mechanism is about to start and then at the end of that loop we re-update the first loop to be ready to go again once the next life gain event has occurred. my gut says i would do the YB loop before i do the CoV loop for every iteration except the last one and then on the last one do the YB loop as late as possible.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah ok, still need to do a bit more digging into the stage stuff I guess.

    I got side tracked a bit with fumbling around while I was figuring out some basic layers stuff but I remembered something about an interaction you mentioned when I was wrongly pointing out what I thought where my layers. So in my setup cradle of vitality and boon reflection can interact within the same chain. I think it only works because my mana is derived from +1/+1 counters. So hopefully I will be setting up a life gain entity in my deck that will gain life in multiple connected events and not just in one giant lump. If it’s in a series of life gain events then these 2 cards can amplify each other as the series of life gain events begin to resolve. So BR is just a replacement effect so it doesn’t use the stack anyway, but when a life gain event happens we will get many CoV triggers. We will need to have access to at least 2 mana as this all starts but that’s it. So after our life gain event has happened we pay for our first CoV trigger. We put these counters on a RSK. We then remove the counters to pump back into our DS making IB powered populate engine. We use it the same way we normally would but in this case we are pretty much solely concerned with making DS. So we do that and use our mana to most efficiently make DS. So as before when we get down to our last mana left we save 2 and let our next CoV trigger come and be paid for. This one will be powered up by the last CoV trigger resolving. So we keep repeating this process until we reach the last of our CoV triggers for any given life gain event. This time we still make a lot of DS until we get down to the end of our mana and populate abilities. This time we save our 2 mana but use our last 2 populate abilities to make a wave of CoV and a wave of BR. Both are now updated fully leading into our next life gain event. BR being fully updated will make the raw life gain substantially higher and we will have an updated amount of CoVs to be able to take maximum advantage of that updated life gain amount.

    I think it means that if I can somehow covert an event into a +1/+1 counter making event that I can probably manage to get a layer out of it. Most likely this works because I do get my mana from counters and might not work in most set ups.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    So I think my confusion with YB was that I was thinking of the activations as a resource(which in a way they are) when those activations where using my life and that my life was the resource. If we had a process that updated my life between the activations we would quickly go infinite as we would just be going down 1 layer to get many resources to reuse that same ability again for a boundless loop. I knew my loop didn’t go infinite but it felt like it was going higher up the chain than it should. I think the hardest part was seeing a series of events not going infinite and reaching farther up the chain than what i thought it should to just be a layer. After doing a bit of learning about how this stuff all works it was just doing exactly what it should to get me my layer in the first place. Basically I was just defining my resources incorrectly and that was causing all sorts of weird perceptions issues on my part.

    All that being said I think I have a much better idea of the layer system which will hopefully lead to understanding the full blown stage stuff as i get more and more comfortable with some of the more complex end of this stuff.

    So a quick question about layers in general: do we want events that potentially could start multiple chains or is it generally better to stick with one chain and more narrow additions to it?

    And a stage question: so with the PB and BM stage(and I think most of them) that it starts with a series of triggered events that try to enter the stack at the same time which allows us to stack them all however we want. I’m guessing this structure of events is pretty required to set these things up? Again I’m still pretty much in the dark with stages but I’m just tying to pick up a few of the bare minimum set up requirements.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    ok. so after reading through the old season of doubling articles and watching a few of them play out and explain the layers and their updating at levels closer to mine, i'm seeing more how things do work and need to work to go up(also both of your explanations have helped). so, think i'm getting a wrap on what a layer is in the first place and what isn't. i still am struggling with the updating of YB draw power between activation's. in most instances of updating we are going down in layers when we do our updating but in my current list we are updating our highest layer with lower ones. so normally we would make x resource, use 1 to do many thing underneath it before we use another of our highest resource. while this is true with YB in regards to raw number of activation's we have access to, the ability to update YB power before using those activation's doesn't seem to fit the updating protocol by going up the chain rather than down it. it's probably just an oddity within the updating mechanic but it still seems a bit odd.

    edit: also reading through the stage explanation is starting to make sense, sort of ... lol i'll prob still have to read through a bunch more because the specifics get really messy and they unfortunately are a required messiness to really comprehend everything going on.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    thanks to both of you! lot to look into. as i said i'm just saying what i see at this point and i do welcome corrections(however much humble pie it is lol). i just want to be able to grasp what is going on so that at some point i'll be able to maybe be able to help with some of the higher concept stuff.

    i guess smooth is a bad way to describe it. it's more how the updates are immediate(even if they are happening via lower layer structures). i don't need to drop down through my stack to do get to the updates, but it looks like that isn't a source of power, just of convince.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I actually get that the numbers are tough. I understand that. It’s just fundamentally my deck is looking for maximum interaction rather than layer inducing segregation. I guess my question comes from this. If one deck implements a layer x times and another deck can do it at x+1 times isn’t the x+1 deck a more powerful deck? Also if we see gains closer to layer implementation x^x times(or even more) at what point does it stop being the layer being implemented? By your definition x is defined infinitely for layer implementation but these decks are inherently finite so at some point it should be possible for a defined layer implementation to be eclipsed by another deck using the same implementation just more times. I think that is my issue. I get that updates are part of layering but it’s just hard when it’s seems like my inherent update ability in my particular set up scales so smoothly. It also doesn’t help that the interactions you guys mostly talk about are only happening at a stage level(which I’m obvioulsy struggling with understanding). I know it will be very basic for your decks but maybe walk me through some of the set up layers before you even get to the stage end of things. That might help me get an idea of what 4/5/6 layer setup looks like and why I’m not doing anything differently. I guess that’s the hard part is lately we’ve just been comparing my decks and nothing else. Something else might help me have a frame of reference. I actually think I understand what type of scaling we need to see layers(I did make a 40ish card deck with 12+ layers) so I get it to some extent it’s just I’m trying to understand why when my updatabilty seems very easy that that isn’t a power of some variety in and unto itself?

    Edit: i’m not claiming I’m at 20+ layers by any means. I’m just looking to rectify what I see with what I understand. At most I’m saying I’m at 7 layers with my current list. Nothing even close to 10+ and certainly not 20+ or stage level.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm I wonder if it’s just difference in style that is the issue. What I mean is this: your decks are designed to work on the acquiring of layers as there definition of power. The more layers the stronger the deck, and that makes sense. I think my issue is that’s not entirely what my set up draws it’s power from. It draws powers more from the addition of abilities rather than just straight math towers. Your deck basically works by going up any given chain and then working it’s way back down the chain making larger and larger entities underneath it ending in final structure that would look like a Christmas tree with the highest layer being the top of the tree. My deck by design is much more like a puddle adding drops of water to it. Each drop is added and the entire system expands that much. This means that it might be possible that my 5 layers output could eclipse someone else’s 5 layer output just because of how it was designed to work in the first place.

    It’s just kind an idea but maybe this concept is why I’m finding it hard understand why the deck feels so under powered via the layer = power definition?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    So me describing my layers was a great question. Doing this helped me see why I wasn’t inherently a stage level setup. The quantities end of things still intrigues me though so I’ll list my view of my layers and see where that gets us.

    First of all I tend to think from a more conceptual standpoint rather than pure math, so while my “layers” may kind of line up they may not. This is just how I think of them in the attempt to power up my board state(I tried to list them in terms of power but I might need to rearrange a few).

    1 - ability to compound my token making(doubling season)

    2 - ability to make a token copy of any permanent I control. (There are some restrictions(0 cmc) and hoops I have to jump through(karn+token maker) but this is the jist)

    3 - ability to make mana(restriction: I have to be casting a spell currently)

    4 - ability to draw cards 1 at a time (restriction: I need life to do it)

    5 - ability to allow me access to more than 60 cards(riftsweeper) (restriction: I need to be able to exile cards to get them back)

    6 - ability to spread targeted spells to my team(golem/arcane adaptation) (restriction(?): I need them to benefit me?)

    7 - ability to update all abilities at instant speed, even while some of them are being resolved. (Restriction(?): I only have so many abilities to update?)

    So looking at my own abilities I may take dual nature out of my list and replace it with mirrorworks, just to clean up the awkwardness of getting a token I can animate w/ karn to then populate with guildmage.

    Interestingly if I add boom reflection and cradle of vitality these would each add a layer.

    8 - ability to modify life gain amounts

    9 - ability to turn life gain events into mana production

    Interestingly a team scaling life gain spell wouldn’t register as a layer for me. It’s more just a straight resource and not a compounding layer as my description of my layers already takes both the life gained and the ability to compound and repurpose it already into consideration (assuming I have BR and CoV).

    Also interestingly thousand-year storm doesn’t really count as layer in my through process. As u had mentioned before I don’t really gain a lot from copies of spells(unless it scales to my team via PG) other than the casting triggers so until I gain something substantial from TYS I might be able to cut it.

    So my thought process puts me a few layers above the 4/5 layers from my original 20 card set up you had described, but as I can easily see it’s nowhere near being a x->x layer type set up. Again it may just be how I conceptualize things that causes the issues or it maybe that I’m thinking I’m 7 layers deep but starting at true addition rather than starting at x^x^x, which is where u start even considering things layers to begin with.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I was just trying to show that WBG and accelerate would both be layer gaining choices if YB wasn’t part of the equation. It struck me as odd that even though WGB and accelerate both are powerful enough to gain layers they both where pretty minor gains compared to YB in the same situation(w/ WBG it’s paying 1 life for gaining something(casts with WBG but no way to update WBGs ability, where YB gets us 2x cast triggers w/ updates and the ability to update YBs original effect) and with accelerate it was drawing cards(even starting at 2 life with the YB loop we scale way past the single casting of accelerate if we are allowed to update bracers before we activate YB the one time, and the difference is even larger if we do 4x accelerate and 5 life(for 4 draws) with bargain) to generate cast triggers. In both cases YB scales far past either of the other 2 options(we use the same YB casting loop with accelerate of CC/riftsweeper and with WBG we use the same life total). It was just to point out that YB was scaling much much better than cards that scaled well enough to be considered layer making powerful and yet YB didn’t
    gain me anything more on the layer scale. It seems like maybe it does by your last explaining the layers of my deck but maybe I missed something. It seems like just having access to any draw when I can loop CC/riftsweeper is worth a layer and then the ability to update YB draw power is another. Being able to update many times doesn’t get me a stage but it does get another layer. Am I understanding this correctly?

    Original 20 cards

    1 black lotus
    2 show and tell
    3 omniscience
    4 yawgmoth’s bargain
    5 opalesence
    6 mycosynth lattice
    7 dual nature
    8 doubling season
    9 runaway steam-kin
    10 painter’s servant
    11 vitu-ghazi guildmage
    12 vedelkan orrery
    13 karn, silver golem
    14 hammer of nazahn
    15 illusionist’s bracers
    16 thousand-year storm
    17a cackling counterpart (bracer, equip all to YB)
    18 precursor golem
    19 arcane adaptation
    17b cackling counterpart(from graveyard)
    20 riftsweeper

    As far as the quantities end of things in the stage stuff: that makes a bunch of sense then. My only thing to point out is that if we start my YB loop, even with no mana I will get mana quite quickly and when I have the mana I can use it in between pretty much any trigger to create all sorts of varying quantities pretty much at will via my populate ability. Each copy the populate ability resolve separately and can make well pretty much anything that isn’t on the stack. I don’t think it would be all that hard to set up lots(maybe even X) different quantities that could then be further manipulated as we saw fit. I can just kinda make more quantities as a result of my setup. Normally I would just choose to max out certain ones(DS for example) but I could do all sorts of weird stuff like making weird amounts of bracers and equipping the to different guildmages(I normally only use 1 but have many if I want to abuse that fact). Again not claiming anything just pointing out that just because I have the 8 quantities u list doesn’t mean I am stuck on only having access to those 8 exclusively. The amount of quantities is actually super easy to manipulate because of the way the populate ability was powered up(waves of many single populate’s instead of just 1 massively powerful one). An interesting 2 cards to add to this mix would be leonin shikari and puresteel paladin. If we do this we can pull hammer of nazahn and the ability to create varying quantities becomes simpler and the maximization of bracers usage becomes just moving them all whenever we need to onto whatever we want to use. In the case of creating quantities we can again move bracers around rather arbitrarily if we are just looking for different quantities. As a perfect example we could have 2 guildmages getting ready to populate. One has all the bracers, one has none. So we activate one and then the other in response. Holding priority we move 1 bracers from the one with them onto the one without any. Then still in response we activate each again and go from 2 quantitates to 4. We hold priority again and move another bracers and repeat to go to 6. Repeat to go to 8 etc etc until we have equal amounts on each. This creates a tower of different quantities of abilities B/2(or is it just B) tall where B is our amount of bracers we started with. I’m guessing this wouldn’t do much if we just do it mid resolution of something but we could do it as set up preparation to get a bunch more quantities before we do start putting stuff on the stack.
    Posted in: Magic General
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