Are we afraid of weather the storm? I get is game if we are tight on spells, but when we are unchecked..we grapeshot for 20, that gain 63 let's say...we go on comboing off and eventually kill them right? Something like grapeshot remand the second one with storm 30. I think is only a problem combined with other forms of hate
Is a game changer because we forced them to be untapped. They can just now tap for a beater and counter gifts ungiven-past in flames and let us there to start the beatdown the next turn. We have always faced hate but it seems to grow each set, and maybe rest in peace/sphere weren't so hard but those backed by free counter spells that we can't use ourselves to protect the combo and flusterstorm makes it even worst. It's not facing hate, is each set bringing more set to a deck that isn't even too much broken.
I disagree, I actually think horizons might slow down the format a bit with new interaction and more walkers. That pushes big Mana decks we are happy to face. About the new force, I also don't think is the nail in the coffin. Nor is flusterstorm (if storm is played in small numbers, I don't see it being so popular). We also run countermagic main deck, plus some number in the side... I think we still have the tools. In general, I think storm is pretty resilient since it faces hate from a very open frame. We bounce permanent hate, we counter stack based interaction... We play around some other hate. I'm only afraid of super efficient disruption plus pressure
I think fiery islet has to come in the deck, I will start on 2.
About fact or fiction... I'm unsure. I will try it as a 4x instead of pieces. Grabbing bears or thing in the ice post board sounds great. But also offers a worst selection, so for the combo turn pieces is still better I'd say.
Flusterstorm is such a sweet card for us, I think overall we benefit from it being in the format. I was running gigadrowse against blue decks, but now that they might have free countermagic I don't think is worth it, so I'll run counterspells. Spell Pierce can hit rest in peace , planeswalkers or spheres, so is not strictly better.
I will be replacing Noxious Revival with Finale of Promise. In return for not being able to get a bear off of a gifts pile I get something quite bit more interesting. Gifts piles with Finale in the equations become quite a bit exciting.
How have you been doing with final promise main deck?
I havent gotten round to this. Been doing other experiments with WAR cards in my other decks eg. the new bolas in my grixis control and saheeli in my creativity deck.
Uh, did you try it yet? I'm kinda keen to know if it does as good as it sounds in theory.
Wanted to know if it did any work for you. I thought it wasn't worth it for us, but you sounded motivated about it
I will be replacing Noxious Revival with Finale of Promise. In return for not being able to get a bear off of a gifts pile I get something quite bit more interesting. Gifts piles with Finale in the equations become quite a bit exciting.
How have you been doing with final promise main deck?
Hey, couple of thoughts about curious homunculus and thing I. The ice.
First, the obvious. The curious doesn't play as a combo creature the turn it comes in play. When is this a drawback? I would say any time we are playing around interaction. I guess is a tool to keep in our storm box, any time the format is in a hyper linear spot, let's say a zoo deck with little to no interaction is the tier 1 deck, having a big body that can block a nacalt is something with it. But I think in general both baral and electro are better options, more versatile, and allow more difficult to play around patterns for our opponent.
Thing main deck is something I've considered too, I played for a while a version with 4 baral, 4 thing in the ice, no empty and 4 pieces of the puzzle. So not your exact idea. I thought that was a viable deck indeed, the nombo is not a big deal I felt. But had a worse g1 than traditional storm overall. About playing 2 in the main, I have to say I don't like the idea of being a deck that has all the answers. Gifting for a pile with the 3 win cons...don't like it so much. I think loosing against double surgical (they also need both wincons in the graveyard) is a good spot to be. I have 2 thing in the side and win so many games on their own against creature decks...and sometimes against mill, lantern...when I fear surgicals
Man it's important to squeeze the deck to get the better results. Knowing the deterministic lines and knowing how to play against hate are different topics... But not exclusive.
The second pile you gave is easy to disrupt even with max mana... better to not to stay on the surface so we can find those tough kill lines.
By the way, I've been playing since Odyssey...long time storm player
Then you should have painted the scenario instead of asking us to imagine a board state that will come up every.... how many games?
Your point is not difficult to get. You want to know how to get to the kill from this point. But the point you've named is very very strange. Its like asking to get to the Empire State building.... from Narnia.
So here's the answer you want. You have 3 mana, gifts on the stack, NO other resources in the hand or GY. No, you cannot do the 20 damage you are looking for. And yes, your best lines are still the rit, rit, mm, pif pile followed by the grape, mm, gift/noxious, remand pile. This of course also assume no disruption from your opponent.
Coming from the scenario I described, you could have, after casting the second gift, max of 5 (they give you ritual-ritual with the first gift), minimum of 3 mana left (pif-manamorphose). If your second gift pile is grapeshot-manamorphose-noxious/gift-remand, your opponent can mana screw you giving you gifts and remand or noxious remand even if you have max mana...
I would go for gifts-pif-ritual-grapeshot for the second pile. Then at least all the lines are deterministic if you had 5 mana after casting the second gift, and some more lines if you had 4 mana (they give you ritual-pif or ritual-manamorphose with the first gift). Pif-manamorphose ends in a choke point unless you draw something.
Anyway, glad you agree we can not deal the 20 damage coming from gifts/3 mana/bear unless we have at least +3 mana in the graveyard or we draw something on the way. I think this deck really rewards knowing the in and outs, and memorizing those can prevent you from making mistakes.
Hi, I would like someone to prove me wrong on this one. I always heard that having a bear in play, 6 Mana and gifts ungiven is a deterministic kill. But I can not find the line, I don't think is possible if I cast it with an empty graveyard and they give me manamorphose and pif in hand.
I would cast manamorphose and pif, going to 1 red, then cast pyretic, desperate and manamorphose again, going up to 6 mana, then pay 3 to play gifts. Is there any gift pile that wins the game from there?
Hi, well thanks for your time but you are explaining something different to the question I asked. We all know that having a manamorphose and ritual in the gy solves the issue. My point was that having only 3 Mana and resolving gifts is not enough, you must have also something relevant in the yard (to produce 3 extra mana for the worst case scenario).
I still think this is true, so if maybe you have 6 lands one bear and gifts, after your opponent cracked a relic, mind that you will only win if the opponent gives you the wrong piles.
The deterministic kill presumes 2 things - it ignores the draws off mm, but it also presumes u are not being interacted with. If we're talking interaction why not just have the opponent crack the relic with your PIF on the stack? Or how about the opponent has damping sphere or leyline of sanctity?
Your scenario of 6 lands and no graveyard is also unrealistic, and working that scenario out is impractical. how are you still alive? Did you cast 0 cantrips? is the concern a RIP on the field? If you had that much time to sculpt a hand, is it not going to be a remand kill instead of gifts/pif? Why would i want to spend time answering a question that would never be asked of me in reality?
The problems you might want to worry about that actually happen - how can you deal with 1-3 hand discards in your early turns? Can you goldfish a turn 3-4 kill consistently without being interacted with?
Wow... I'm speachless. I ask a theroetical question on gifts piles and you answer why to bother if that never comes up, and that the real questions are bla bla... Actually this came up against tron. Anyway, you didn't get my point, forget it.
For those interested in what is really needed for a deterministic kill, after running all the combinations (would love if anyone sees something I miss), you need a bear, a gift, 3 mana in the pool and a way to add at least 3 extra mana on the way... Or your opponent to miss.
And no relic on the board.
And no leyline
And no rest in peace
No ooze
No sphere
No Thalia
No meddling mage
No counter magic
.
.
.
Hi, I would like someone to prove me wrong on this one. I always heard that having a bear in play, 6 Mana and gifts ungiven is a deterministic kill. But I can not find the line, I don't think is possible if I cast it with an empty graveyard and they give me manamorphose and pif in hand.
I would cast manamorphose and pif, going to 1 red, then cast pyretic, desperate and manamorphose again, going up to 6 mana, then pay 3 to play gifts. Is there any gift pile that wins the game from there?
Hi, well thanks for your time but you are explaining something different to the question I asked. We all know that having a manamorphose and ritual in the gy solves the issue. My point was that having only 3 Mana and resolving gifts is not enough, you must have also something relevant in the yard (to produce 3 extra mana for the worst case scenario).
I still think this is true, so if maybe you have 6 lands one bear and gifts, after your opponent cracked a relic, mind that you will only win if the opponent gives you the wrong piles.
Well actually, I don't see the line either if they give me ritual manamorphose or ritual pif. There is always a choice the opponent can make to stop the chain... Even if they give me ritual ritual, when I cast the second gift from the graveyard, there is still one line to not to make it deterministic, giving the opponent pif and gift from the second pile.
Again, all this counts if your graveyard is empty, and you cast gift with 3 mana on the stack ,otherwise is pretty easy to find a line the opponent cant avoid loosing too, I'd like someone to prove me wrong, I think all those piles we called deterministic where only true if we have at least a ritual in the grave.
Hi, I would like someone to prove me wrong on this one. I always heard that having a bear in play, 6 Mana and gifts ungiven is a deterministic kill. But I can not find the line, I don't think is possible if I cast it with an empty graveyard and they give me manamorphose and pif in hand.
I would cast manamorphose and pif, going to 1 red, then cast pyretic, desperate and manamorphose again, going up to 6 mana, then pay 3 to play gifts. Is there any gift pile that wins the game from there?
I think the only things keeping storm from being a clear tier 1 at the moment is burn, and the spike of surgical. But in terms of speed, consistency and raw power it competes with the best. Still, right now unsub-remand grapeshot lines can play around surgical (I like the double unsub against burn, Phoenix and shadow..even humans and spirits), triple empty goes also around gy hate... I see storm totally viable. Maybe a looting ban will turn down dredge and Phoenix a bit making people gravitate towards a different hate, and we would be right back.
By the way, I still need to figure out my burn and Phoenix mu. Against Phoenix lately I've been trying to fight thing in the ice with unsubs, wipe away and repeals, so my non graveyard plan gets better (empty and remand grapeshot). Burn is a mu I don't think we can realistically win without committing 6 sideboard slots, still I would appreciate advice with this list for both mu:
I disagree, I actually think horizons might slow down the format a bit with new interaction and more walkers. That pushes big Mana decks we are happy to face. About the new force, I also don't think is the nail in the coffin. Nor is flusterstorm (if storm is played in small numbers, I don't see it being so popular). We also run countermagic main deck, plus some number in the side... I think we still have the tools. In general, I think storm is pretty resilient since it faces hate from a very open frame. We bounce permanent hate, we counter stack based interaction... We play around some other hate. I'm only afraid of super efficient disruption plus pressure
About fact or fiction... I'm unsure. I will try it as a 4x instead of pieces. Grabbing bears or thing in the ice post board sounds great. But also offers a worst selection, so for the combo turn pieces is still better I'd say.
Flusterstorm is such a sweet card for us, I think overall we benefit from it being in the format. I was running gigadrowse against blue decks, but now that they might have free countermagic I don't think is worth it, so I'll run counterspells. Spell Pierce can hit rest in peace , planeswalkers or spheres, so is not strictly better.
Wanted to know if it did any work for you. I thought it wasn't worth it for us, but you sounded motivated about it
How have you been doing with final promise main deck?
First, the obvious. The curious doesn't play as a combo creature the turn it comes in play. When is this a drawback? I would say any time we are playing around interaction. I guess is a tool to keep in our storm box, any time the format is in a hyper linear spot, let's say a zoo deck with little to no interaction is the tier 1 deck, having a big body that can block a nacalt is something with it. But I think in general both baral and electro are better options, more versatile, and allow more difficult to play around patterns for our opponent.
Thing main deck is something I've considered too, I played for a while a version with 4 baral, 4 thing in the ice, no empty and 4 pieces of the puzzle. So not your exact idea. I thought that was a viable deck indeed, the nombo is not a big deal I felt. But had a worse g1 than traditional storm overall. About playing 2 in the main, I have to say I don't like the idea of being a deck that has all the answers. Gifting for a pile with the 3 win cons...don't like it so much. I think loosing against double surgical (they also need both wincons in the graveyard) is a good spot to be. I have 2 thing in the side and win so many games on their own against creature decks...and sometimes against mill, lantern...when I fear surgicals
The second pile you gave is easy to disrupt even with max mana... better to not to stay on the surface so we can find those tough kill lines.
By the way, I've been playing since Odyssey...long time storm player
Coming from the scenario I described, you could have, after casting the second gift, max of 5 (they give you ritual-ritual with the first gift), minimum of 3 mana left (pif-manamorphose). If your second gift pile is grapeshot-manamorphose-noxious/gift-remand, your opponent can mana screw you giving you gifts and remand or noxious remand even if you have max mana...
I would go for gifts-pif-ritual-grapeshot for the second pile. Then at least all the lines are deterministic if you had 5 mana after casting the second gift, and some more lines if you had 4 mana (they give you ritual-pif or ritual-manamorphose with the first gift). Pif-manamorphose ends in a choke point unless you draw something.
Anyway, glad you agree we can not deal the 20 damage coming from gifts/3 mana/bear unless we have at least +3 mana in the graveyard or we draw something on the way. I think this deck really rewards knowing the in and outs, and memorizing those can prevent you from making mistakes.
Wow... I'm speachless. I ask a theroetical question on gifts piles and you answer why to bother if that never comes up, and that the real questions are bla bla... Actually this came up against tron. Anyway, you didn't get my point, forget it.
For those interested in what is really needed for a deterministic kill, after running all the combinations (would love if anyone sees something I miss), you need a bear, a gift, 3 mana in the pool and a way to add at least 3 extra mana on the way... Or your opponent to miss.
And no relic on the board.
And no leyline
And no rest in peace
No ooze
No sphere
No Thalia
No meddling mage
No counter magic
.
.
.
(Sorry if remarking this sounds stupid)
Hi, well thanks for your time but you are explaining something different to the question I asked. We all know that having a manamorphose and ritual in the gy solves the issue. My point was that having only 3 Mana and resolving gifts is not enough, you must have also something relevant in the yard (to produce 3 extra mana for the worst case scenario).
I still think this is true, so if maybe you have 6 lands one bear and gifts, after your opponent cracked a relic, mind that you will only win if the opponent gives you the wrong piles.
Again, all this counts if your graveyard is empty, and you cast gift with 3 mana on the stack ,otherwise is pretty easy to find a line the opponent cant avoid loosing too, I'd like someone to prove me wrong, I think all those piles we called deterministic where only true if we have at least a ritual in the grave.
I would cast manamorphose and pif, going to 1 red, then cast pyretic, desperate and manamorphose again, going up to 6 mana, then pay 3 to play gifts. Is there any gift pile that wins the game from there?
By the way, I still need to figure out my burn and Phoenix mu. Against Phoenix lately I've been trying to fight thing in the ice with unsubs, wipe away and repeals, so my non graveyard plan gets better (empty and remand grapeshot). Burn is a mu I don't think we can realistically win without committing 6 sideboard slots, still I would appreciate advice with this list for both mu:
4 spirebluff
4 Scalding
2 Misty
4 island
1 mountain
2 steam vents
4 baral
3 electro
4 opt
4 serum
4 sleight
4 pyretic
4 desperate
4 manamorphose
1 remand
2 unsub
2 grapeshot
1 empty
4 gift
2 pif
Sideboard
4 pieces
2 empty
2 thing
2 bolt
1 abrade
1 gigadrowse
1 repeal
1 wipe away
1 shatterstorm
And btw, I see people cutting bears too much...I don't know if I'm the only one feeling like playing an underpowered deck, I don't like going below 5
4 Scalding
2 Misty
4 island
1 mountain
2 steam vents
4 baral
3 electro
4 opt
4 serum
4 sleight
4 pyretic
4 desperate
4 manamorphose
1 blink of an eye
1 remand
1 unsub
2 grapeshot
1 empty
4 gift
2 pif
Sideboard
4 pieces
2 empty
2 thing
2 bolt
1 abrade
1 shatterstorm
1 gigadrow
1 repeal
1 wipe away