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  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from jayjayhooks »
    As far as Dovin/Gideon I think you might be over estimating Gideon in the mirror. You mentioned that you are just returning to UW and as such you may be remembering a time when game 1 of the mirror was almost entirely dependant on decking and Gideon was a huge asset. This isn't the case anymore. With the printing of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and the unbanning of Jace the games just never come down to decking and a Gideon emblem is going to be virtually worthless.

    I also don't think the finite nature of Dovin's -1 is going to be very relevant. We run so much removal and are so good going into the late game that we really only need to buy a little tempo with our turn 3 plays in order to make them justified. As I said, I think Dovin provides more tempo due to the tax effect. However, I think Teferi, Time Raveler is superior to both for the simple reason that it draws a card while providing that 1 turn of tempo that is much needed. Once we get to turn 5, 6, 7 I think it matters little which of 3 walkers we having going against everything other than control mirrors (and maybe Tron). In which case Raveler takes the lead by a large margin.


    I started playing UW Control again when Rad Chad was printed and I got more into it once Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned. I recall games being about Celestial Colonnade beat downs in mirrors, not milling the other player. In a mirror where each player has 5 removal spells for 4 lands, the player that is more threat dense is going to get something to stick at some point. Gideon breaks that by giving you unlimited activations vs Colonnades plus pipping your threat count beyond 4 Colonnades.

    I fail to see why you would say having a virtual infinite removal option for a single creature, is not very relevant - regardless of how many removal spells we run. It allows you to efficiently use the cards you have, which equates to more optimal decision making over the course of a game.

    I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on Gideon of the Trials vs Dovin, Hand of Control.

    I do agree that Teferi, Time Raveler is better than both, but I also believe that the deck needs more 3 drops overall. The puzzle remains, what ones and why, should they even exist right now.

    Quote from Bearscape »
    Well, yes, because your manabase is structured correctly, with 17 white sources. Which is my point; You run 2 fetchlands more, get to run 2 less basics, and lose a colorless land slot. I'm not dismissing Trials Gideon at all (in fact I love Trials Gideon), but I do think that the upped white mana requirement is a tradeoff to consider.


    It is a 2 color deck... may I ask what you think I am trading off for that (genuine question, sorry for my ignorance)? A Ghost Quarter? Blast Zone? I don't see much value in them beyond 4 Field of Ruin, currently.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from maniospas »
    I imagine running SV has helped a lot with little Chad mana colors. I'm usually splashing red for 3 Helixes (and occasionally 2 Bolts - although they feel more and more useless nowadays) and I did have some issues casting him when running Opt but none when running SV.


    I think Opt is only good if you are running Terminus.

    Eight players chose to put Serum Visions into the slot more commonly occupied by Opt. They earned half a point more per player than the average White-Blue pilot. Though we should probably disregard a combination of a difference this small and a sample size to match.


    Given that I agree that such a small difference and sample size is irrelevant, I do believe that if you are more aware of the necessity of a 3 CMC turn 3, Serum Visions becomes more relevant and given multiple reasons justifying negligible numbers, I tend to lean towards data. Something else worth noting is that I run more fetches to correct early mana, than most. Sitting at 7.

    Quote from jayjayhooks »
    I think Dovin, Hand of Control might just be a better a Gideon of the Trials; The -1 is basically equivalent to the +1 on Trials even so far as them both being on 4 loyalty the turn you use it first, arguably the most important time since you will have more mana to work with on follow up turns. Imo, their main purpose is to buy a few turns until you can stabilize, and I would argue that Dovin is even better in that main function since the tax will also be buying you a little tempo some amount of the time. The main difference between them is that Dovin can't close out games or pressure planeswalkers. However I would argue that the static ability on Dovin outweighs this since UW doesn't really need to close out games, it just needs to not lose. The inability to pressure planeswalkers of Dovin is his greatest downside over Gideon, notably vs the different flavors of liliana decks (though there aren't many of them at the moment). Vs Jace decks the combination of opposing path to exiles and large number of instants/sorceries make an argument for Dovin being superior since he doesn't die to path and taxes said spells. In either case, I don't think Dovin nor Gideon are strong enough right now since the matchup where they are the strongest against (Shadow) is already a matchup we are heavily favored in.


    This is an interesting evaluation. Considering that Gideon of the Trials is not as finite as Dovin, Hand of Control. You can literally tick up Rad Chad a potential infinite number of times vs Creature decks - which is why he has an inclusion. His primary application is stifling creature decks with minimal pressure. On the flip side, Control cannot really deal with an Emblem well, especially if you just let him sit there without ever using a 0 activation. So sure, they can Path him... buy why would you activate him if you just made an emblem? The list I provided literally has the bare minimum of par when it comes to threat density in a mirror match. Gideon in the control match either provides them with an incredibly difficult path to victory via a token, or provides you more inevitability than your opponent is packing. Sure, Dovin, Hand of Control can tax an opponent, but he has a significant amount of diminishing returns as the game goes long, in a match where it absolutely will go long.

    I don't think there is any world in which Dovin, Hand of Control is better than Gideon of the Trials based on your evaluation parameters. But, I also would not say that Gideon is really even a necessary card in UW Control in Modern. But I think saying Dovin is better is quite a stretch.

    As for your comments about your list and the 2 mana countermagic, I quite like Logic Knot, but I also run a 4/3 split of Flooded Strand/Scalding Tarn to help fix my mana for Gideon of the Trials.. so I have a bit more 'got ya' moments with early Logic Knot plays. 2 Dovin's Veto seems hefty. Maybe just runing a 1 mana cantrip is better than your 3 counterspells? Hard to say.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    In the year I have been running Gideon, I cannot say I have ever had mana issues with him.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I have been playing UW Control in Modern for some time now, and I am still playing the Gideon of the Trials variation of the deck. I have been for sometime, as I am a big fan of having some 3 CMC options in UW Control for Modern. I was a previously competitive player who has played heavy Control lists in all sorts of metas, and even did some content production between 2009 and 2012 and after being away for a while, jumped back into playing UW Control in modern last year. With War of the Spark, I instantly gravitated towards Teferi, Time Raveler and Narset, Parter of Veils, but was unsure how or if they would fit within the deck. My initial draft was as follows.




    Overall, I was pretty happy with this initial draft in play testing. After following the thread a bit, I saw that SuperSeed mentioned they were running a more midrange list and wolffman mentioned they were trying to still make Gideon work. It gave me a it of hope, as I was running the Gideon of the Trials list that also packed some Wall of Omens action like the 5-0 decklists of about a year ago that someone was doing well with. But I was not really eager to go full midrange with cards like Restoration Angel.

    Before my FNM I decided to make a few swaps, and my decklist ended up looking like the one below.




    Unlike Wolffman, Gideon of the Trials has always done well for me over the last year. While I have not really played in any events outside of FNM, I can say that he has gotten me through plenty of games vs various decks in the meta since introducing him and he continues to shine for me. I am not sure if it is because he is Gideon of the Trials or that it is just that the card is a 3 CMC card filling a gap that the archetype has been starving to do for some time.

    Round 1 vs Mardu Pyromancer/Vehicles W 2-0
    This was an interesting deck. Pretty much a Mardu Pyromancer deck that managed to fit in Gideon Blackblade and Heart of Kiran. I am not entirely sure what he cut to get them in or how many copies. I did not really engage in much small talk after the game. But he had some pretty explosive starts. There was a skill disparity here though, as he was easily baited into situations where Gideon Blackblade was useless outside of getting Heart of Kiran active.

    Round 2 vs GBw Aggro W 2-0
    I went in thinking this player was on his typical GBw deck, which is more or less just GB Rock splashing white for Lingering Souls and Path to Exile. Maybe he fit in a Gideon Blackblade or something from the new set, I thought. Turns out he was running a similar list, but made use of Death's Shadow. I am not entirely sure what he cut to make it all work, but the games boiled down to sweeping his critters and then just using Gideon of the Trials to stop him from getting through with Gurmag Angler's or Death's Shadow. I only needed to prevent damage enough times to start rolling out Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor before he would eventually concede. MVP's were Gideon of the Trials and Teferi, Time Raveler as they put a stop to any early aggression almost indefinitely. He could not present threats fast enough to get around them early on.

    Round 3 vs Elves W 2-1
    Basically how you would expect a heavy control match vs an all-in deck to go. Game 1 he flooded the board into a Supreme Verdict and was unable to take down Gideon of the Trials to deal with an emblem. Game 2 he played a turn 2 Choke into my tapped Prairie Stream. I kept a Prairie Stream, Field of Ruin, and Teferi, Time Ravelver in my opening just to try and see how he could play and hope to keep him off Choke so I could sweep into Teferi. I was not going to recover from the turn 2 Choke so it was a quick concession. Game 3 played out very similar to how I expected game 2 to go. He played a bunch of dorks into a Supreme Verdict and got to untap into a Teferi, Time Raveler. He went face with what little he had, and I got to instant speed cast a couple more Supreme Verdict before he finally conceded.

    Round 4 vs Affinity w/Galvanic Blast W 2-1
    Game 1 led with a complete hand dump and a Welding Jar. Fortunately it was a bunch of Springleaf Drums and Ornithopters. He was able to apply pressure with 2 Vault Skirge, Inkmoth Nexus, and Blinkmoth Nexus, but not fast enough for me to get Teferi' Time Raveler online and tick up until I could cast an instant speed Supreme Verdict to completely cripple his board. Game 2 was another quick hand dump into a resolved Cranial Plating. Game 3 played out similar to game 1. He played around Teferi, Time Raveler at first, but I sand bagged it for 2 turns and he decided to commit thinking I did not have it. Complete board clear, hitting his lands again, and another concession.

    Final Thoughts
    Overall, I am pretty happy with the list. Narset, Parter of Veils made multiple appearances throughout the night. I sided her in to help dig for sweepers vs aggro decks, where Search was not going to flip anyways. I think that Search for Azcanta has a significantly higher ceiling than Narset, Parter of Veils but a significantly lower floor than Narset. I am not sure if I will completely switch to Narset, as I feel the 3 drop start starts to get kind of clunky. But overall, she was not anything that was game breaking. Just some quality control, which was appreciated.

    Teferi, Time Raveler was great. He never did anything super significant, but he did buy time whenever he would hit the battlefield. Even just bouncing something and then dying to attacks was enough to get a footing in the game. When he actually made significant plays, they were blow outs. I currently attribute this to players just not knowing how to play around him just yet, and suspect that blow out plays will decline as people familiarize themselves with him in UW Control - but it could just be that he is actually that good.

    Dovin's Veto was everything I expected it to be. Very solid upgrade to Negate and I never had issues casting it... but I never needed to cast it on turn 2. Earliest I cast it was turn 3 for a Cranial Plating.

    Moving forward, I may cut Sphinx's Revelation and Vendilion Clique. Not entirely sure what I will replace them with, but I think I would like to run 1 Search for Azcanta and 1 Narset, Parter of Veils then fit in a 2nd Teferi, Time Raveler with a 3rd in the sideboard.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I am not sold that the new Ashiok is actually that good.

    I did play a bit with Narset and Teferi, I think they are both quite strong for 3 mana. I think I was initially testing with low expectations of Teferi, and he ended up exceeding my expectations as a MB candidate. Narest, I may likely drop a SFA for and run a 1/1 split in the main with a 2nd Narset in the board.

    Quote from The Fluff »
    How about Call the Gatewatch instead of Ignite the Beacon? It's less mana intensive at 3 mana.


    Call the Gatewatch is a sorcery...
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Narset, Parter of Veils Combo Control, (AKA Pitch Blue ) Primer
    Quote from D90Dennis14 »
    2. Those cards (Snapback, Shoal, Commandeer) are just very situational cards and not worth building around and playing bad card to like Borderpost (and mediocre bouncespells) to fuel them imho.
    Black gets tou much better options like real removal: Fatal Push, Cast Down (Go For the Throat/Murderous Cut) and Collective Brutality as hand disruption (and additional effects).
    Bouncespells alone (and Shoal) aren't good enough for efficiently interacting and not playing any "real" removal or discard spells (or more countermagic) isn't a great idea imho.


    I think this point is moot, considering the pitch functionality of the deck. You literally just toss the useless spells to cast free cards that are relevant and then you refill your hand. You are not wrong in saying that they are situational, but your evaluation of how impactful they are is quite skewed.

    Borderpost is rather insane in this deck.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Narset, Parter of Veils
    There is a stark difference between something that is a one shot pony and something that can be forcibly played over an over until you can create a lock.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Care to share your list?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    As a player that absolutely loves Planeswalkers and once heavily wanted to use them as Commander (and I have played since the format's inception) - I can honestly say that I have never gotten bored with finding legendary creatures to use.

    In fact, even the Planeswalkers that they introduced specifically to fit into the Command Zone, are walkers I have never actually used as Commanders.

    WOTC is on the right track, print Planeswalkers here and there that sidestep the RC's ability to dictate that PWs cannot be Commanders. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Planeswalkers don't enrich what you can or cannot do in the format already. Sure, flavor wins are nice. We all love flavor wins. But flavor wins don't actually equate to necessity.

    Legalizing Planeswalkers as Commanders means you are now opening up the format to more bans on certain cards in an already oversized banned list.

    I think people forget that you really have to pick and choose your battles, and if not having access ti PWs as Commanders turns you off of the format, then so be it. Go play Brawl. You are literally arguing that not having them legal as Commanders is of detriment to a format that continues to grow anyways...
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Feeling guilty after finally saying "No"
    I just need to get this off of my chest real quick.

    I work overnights at a pet emergency hospital. They are 12-14 hours shifts and often involve critical cases. I do relief work at a daytime clinic (non emergency) in another town about 20 minutes away. I blew a radiator and a hose last Friday heading out to help them out.

    I fixed what I could this weekend, replaced the lower hose (which involved taking parts of the body apart to get to) and was unable to get to the radiator replaced this weekend and unfortunately I had to call in today to finish repairing my radiator and get the car into working order to get to my regular job at the pet ER tonight.

    I almost never say no when shifts need covered or my own shift needs to be swapped at the ER. In fact, I told the day clinic I could not fill in while doing overnight shifts at the ER, but recently they asked me to cover 4 days and I said I would make it work.

    "See a need, fill a need" is kind of how I operate.

    But after having to call in and having the clinic I fill in for when they are short people, tell me they are slammed and need me to come in... has left me feeling guilty for saying "No".

    Should I feel guilty for this? Why or why not?
    Posted in: Real-Life Advice
  • posted a message on Atraxa, Praetor's Planeswalker Superfriends Assemble
    I run 9 creatures, which means I don't get a lot of value out of her static ability. I don't utilize tokens for blocking as much as some people might. I also don't typically run walkers that solely hold their value on the condition that Doubling Season is online.

    Her ultimate is the only reason I would be interested in her and Krosan Grip is much too prevalent in my area to get away with Planeswalkers that offer the bulk, if not all, of their value on an ultimate ability.

    I run 9 out of the 15 Planeswalkers on the original post in this thread and WAR will introduce Narset, Parter of Veils as my 10th.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Atraxa, Praetor's Planeswalker Superfriends Assemble
    Quote from Kitsune_18 »
    There seem to be a bunch more but, not being familiar with the deck, I left out planeswalkers and some of the other proliferate cards. What are your thoughts? What's the current state of the deck as a whole?


    I tend to run a harder control list, which means I focus a bit less on proliferation and Planeswalkers and more on interaction and tool boxing. My list does not really deviate too much from standard Atraxa lists outside of overall Walker selection, but a few things from War of the Spark excite me:

    Ignite the Beacon is pretty handy. I am unsure if it will end up being a bit overpriced for what it does, but I suspect it will work out well in situations where you spent early game setting yourself up over digging for heavy hitters. The number 2 is what really excites me and 2.5 mana each seems fair.

    Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor is a nice way to protect a board, I am not sure I will find room for it though. It seems pretty fair and I like to be a step up above fair if possible.

    Narset, Parter of Veils is probably the card I am most excited about. Leovold, Emissary of Trest was a really strong card, and while Narset does not exactly mimic all aspects of it, it mimics the oppressive part of him and can dig deep in the process. Having a proliferate option in Karn's Bastion is pretty powerful. You additionally have the option of simply not using her and instead letting her act as an attackable enhancement if they can get through to her.

    I also deeply appreciate Teferi, Time Raveler. Protects your sorcery speed Walker casting game quite well and has some flexibility to boot.

    Deliver Unto Evil Seems pretty powerful, even without Bolas in the picture.

    Spark Double seems handy.

    Narset's Reversal seems like it just allows for potentially insane plays and has 100% uptime of just being good.

    Overall, I am pretty selective about what my WAR adds will be and I have note entirely narrowed them down, but I think this was a great set for players in the WUBG colors.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Food Chain
    I already lean towards the ban list being too big as it is, Food Chain is yet another example of a card that is insanely strong when the support for it is there but can come undone at a table full of players who know what the deck is doing.

    Table talk is the great equalizer in the vast majority of situations and I most certainly think that the Commander Ban list has lost sight of this part of being 'social' when it comes to the format. I don't think we need yet another ban to protect people that have not quite yet learned the social complexity of a multiply format.

    Multiplayer Commander has always been an anti-fragile format and the ban list, as well as players who like to leverage it, act as if it is instead - a fragile format.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Masterpieces
    Why do Tezzeret and Sarkhan look like 80's porn stars?
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on 4/17 mothership spoilers: Gideon Blackblade, Narset & her spell...
    Quote from Igzex »
    So is Narset just absolutely determined to be the bane of casual EDH?


    Not nearly in the same way Leovold was.

    Leovold you could continuously jam from the Command zone until he stuck and you could lock people out and you could do it early on. Narset on the other hand, cannot continually be jammed into oblivion until you lock someone out.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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