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  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Something worth noting, is the playability of the card. Unlike Force of Will, you likely won't be jamming 4 copies into the main 60 of every deck primarily running blue. Yes, Force of Negation is a powerful card, but it is more narrow in scope than Force of Will and Pact of Negation. The ability to play it for 'free' is the only thing that props this card up onto a playable pedestal, and that doesn't offset its more narrow application.

    It is not a 4 of in any format, outside of a few specific decks, including Modern.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Fact or Fiction just takes the role of Hieroglyphic Illumination right? I can assume so, and that really fitting 1 copy in is probably as far as we may be able to stretch it. Although, I am seeing more and more Azorius Control decks dropping down to 3 Cryptic Command... so maybe 2 copies if you really want to push it. I think Fact or Fiction is an absolutely insane card, but I am unsure how applicable it is in the Modern format.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on State of Standard Thread: bans, format health, metagame, rotation, etc!
    Quote from hoser2 »
    Corrections, improvements? I expect to be wrong on some borderline situations and don't want to create a problem, so please let's just try to get this approximately right (or if someone wants to go nuts on this, PM me with a proposal).


    I am curious what your criteria for Proven and Established is. I would argue that Grixis Control is up there with Mono Red Aggro, and Esper Control... Bant Midrange is seemingly up there as well.

    If your goal is to delineate what decks are viable for something like an Open event and what decks are known to have stuck around as more than just a flavor of the week, then something like Mono Blue Aggro does not belong in Proven or Established. If you are talking about ranking to Mythic on Arena, then Bant Midrange and Grixis Control are far superior to Mono Blue Aggro. In which case they probably belong in Proven while decks like Simic Midrange, Nexus, Mono Blue Aggro, and Esper Midrange are still playable but much lesser quality for ranking purposes.
    Posted in: Standard (Type 2)
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I agree. I feel like the MB has room for 3-4 flex slots and then the pilot can arrange their sweeper set up however they want... but the SB is a tricky one to move around for stuff as it is, let alone a wishboard.

    I must have come in right after the decking mirror era..

    As for the comment about running fewer basic lands, I can see how that would be a legitimate cost to running more fetches. I would argue however, that the current climate of the format (overall) isn't really all that demanding on early fetches for basics. We have fewer decks like Humans, Mono Red, Affinity, and so on, running around. I think at a local level it is probably something to consider. But you can get greedier with your fetches in a format of Titanshift, Mono Green Tron, Azorius Control, and even Izzet Phoenix. I would also think that Gideon affords you a level of leeway vs the more aggressive decks because he becomes more relevant in those fringe scenarios. What I like about Gideon is that is really is a card that can work both angles fairly well and does so to the benefit of also filling an otherwise week slot on the curve for Azorius Control. As for having more lands to tap for mana in longer games, isn't that what Gideon is also there to help prevent? Especially with the new inclusion of Dovin's Veto which will just flat out stop any attempt to Path to Exile him.

    Maybe I am wrong about him right now. I can see where he has been weaker in my list in the past, but lately he has just been a total beating and it felt even better with WAR.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from jayjayhooks »
    As far as Dovin/Gideon I think you might be over estimating Gideon in the mirror. You mentioned that you are just returning to UW and as such you may be remembering a time when game 1 of the mirror was almost entirely dependant on decking and Gideon was a huge asset. This isn't the case anymore. With the printing of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and the unbanning of Jace the games just never come down to decking and a Gideon emblem is going to be virtually worthless.

    I also don't think the finite nature of Dovin's -1 is going to be very relevant. We run so much removal and are so good going into the late game that we really only need to buy a little tempo with our turn 3 plays in order to make them justified. As I said, I think Dovin provides more tempo due to the tax effect. However, I think Teferi, Time Raveler is superior to both for the simple reason that it draws a card while providing that 1 turn of tempo that is much needed. Once we get to turn 5, 6, 7 I think it matters little which of 3 walkers we having going against everything other than control mirrors (and maybe Tron). In which case Raveler takes the lead by a large margin.


    I started playing UW Control again when Rad Chad was printed and I got more into it once Jace, the Mind Sculptor was unbanned. I recall games being about Celestial Colonnade beat downs in mirrors, not milling the other player. In a mirror where each player has 5 removal spells for 4 lands, the player that is more threat dense is going to get something to stick at some point. Gideon breaks that by giving you unlimited activations vs Colonnades plus pipping your threat count beyond 4 Colonnades.

    I fail to see why you would say having a virtual infinite removal option for a single creature, is not very relevant - regardless of how many removal spells we run. It allows you to efficiently use the cards you have, which equates to more optimal decision making over the course of a game.

    I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on Gideon of the Trials vs Dovin, Hand of Control.

    I do agree that Teferi, Time Raveler is better than both, but I also believe that the deck needs more 3 drops overall. The puzzle remains, what ones and why, should they even exist right now.

    Quote from Bearscape »
    Well, yes, because your manabase is structured correctly, with 17 white sources. Which is my point; You run 2 fetchlands more, get to run 2 less basics, and lose a colorless land slot. I'm not dismissing Trials Gideon at all (in fact I love Trials Gideon), but I do think that the upped white mana requirement is a tradeoff to consider.


    It is a 2 color deck... may I ask what you think I am trading off for that (genuine question, sorry for my ignorance)? A Ghost Quarter? Blast Zone? I don't see much value in them beyond 4 Field of Ruin, currently.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from maniospas »
    I imagine running SV has helped a lot with little Chad mana colors. I'm usually splashing red for 3 Helixes (and occasionally 2 Bolts - although they feel more and more useless nowadays) and I did have some issues casting him when running Opt but none when running SV.


    I think Opt is only good if you are running Terminus.

    Eight players chose to put Serum Visions into the slot more commonly occupied by Opt. They earned half a point more per player than the average White-Blue pilot. Though we should probably disregard a combination of a difference this small and a sample size to match.


    Given that I agree that such a small difference and sample size is irrelevant, I do believe that if you are more aware of the necessity of a 3 CMC turn 3, Serum Visions becomes more relevant and given multiple reasons justifying negligible numbers, I tend to lean towards data. Something else worth noting is that I run more fetches to correct early mana, than most. Sitting at 7.

    Quote from jayjayhooks »
    I think Dovin, Hand of Control might just be a better a Gideon of the Trials; The -1 is basically equivalent to the +1 on Trials even so far as them both being on 4 loyalty the turn you use it first, arguably the most important time since you will have more mana to work with on follow up turns. Imo, their main purpose is to buy a few turns until you can stabilize, and I would argue that Dovin is even better in that main function since the tax will also be buying you a little tempo some amount of the time. The main difference between them is that Dovin can't close out games or pressure planeswalkers. However I would argue that the static ability on Dovin outweighs this since UW doesn't really need to close out games, it just needs to not lose. The inability to pressure planeswalkers of Dovin is his greatest downside over Gideon, notably vs the different flavors of liliana decks (though there aren't many of them at the moment). Vs Jace decks the combination of opposing path to exiles and large number of instants/sorceries make an argument for Dovin being superior since he doesn't die to path and taxes said spells. In either case, I don't think Dovin nor Gideon are strong enough right now since the matchup where they are the strongest against (Shadow) is already a matchup we are heavily favored in.


    This is an interesting evaluation. Considering that Gideon of the Trials is not as finite as Dovin, Hand of Control. You can literally tick up Rad Chad a potential infinite number of times vs Creature decks - which is why he has an inclusion. His primary application is stifling creature decks with minimal pressure. On the flip side, Control cannot really deal with an Emblem well, especially if you just let him sit there without ever using a 0 activation. So sure, they can Path him... buy why would you activate him if you just made an emblem? The list I provided literally has the bare minimum of par when it comes to threat density in a mirror match. Gideon in the control match either provides them with an incredibly difficult path to victory via a token, or provides you more inevitability than your opponent is packing. Sure, Dovin, Hand of Control can tax an opponent, but he has a significant amount of diminishing returns as the game goes long, in a match where it absolutely will go long.

    I don't think there is any world in which Dovin, Hand of Control is better than Gideon of the Trials based on your evaluation parameters. But, I also would not say that Gideon is really even a necessary card in UW Control in Modern. But I think saying Dovin is better is quite a stretch.

    As for your comments about your list and the 2 mana countermagic, I quite like Logic Knot, but I also run a 4/3 split of Flooded Strand/Scalding Tarn to help fix my mana for Gideon of the Trials.. so I have a bit more 'got ya' moments with early Logic Knot plays. 2 Dovin's Veto seems hefty. Maybe just runing a 1 mana cantrip is better than your 3 counterspells? Hard to say.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    In the year I have been running Gideon, I cannot say I have ever had mana issues with him.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I have been playing UW Control in Modern for some time now, and I am still playing the Gideon of the Trials variation of the deck. I have been for sometime, as I am a big fan of having some 3 CMC options in UW Control for Modern. I was a previously competitive player who has played heavy Control lists in all sorts of metas, and even did some content production between 2009 and 2012 and after being away for a while, jumped back into playing UW Control in modern last year. With War of the Spark, I instantly gravitated towards Teferi, Time Raveler and Narset, Parter of Veils, but was unsure how or if they would fit within the deck. My initial draft was as follows.




    Overall, I was pretty happy with this initial draft in play testing. After following the thread a bit, I saw that SuperSeed mentioned they were running a more midrange list and wolffman mentioned they were trying to still make Gideon work. It gave me a it of hope, as I was running the Gideon of the Trials list that also packed some Wall of Omens action like the 5-0 decklists of about a year ago that someone was doing well with. But I was not really eager to go full midrange with cards like Restoration Angel.

    Before my FNM I decided to make a few swaps, and my decklist ended up looking like the one below.




    Unlike Wolffman, Gideon of the Trials has always done well for me over the last year. While I have not really played in any events outside of FNM, I can say that he has gotten me through plenty of games vs various decks in the meta since introducing him and he continues to shine for me. I am not sure if it is because he is Gideon of the Trials or that it is just that the card is a 3 CMC card filling a gap that the archetype has been starving to do for some time.

    Round 1 vs Mardu Pyromancer/Vehicles W 2-0
    This was an interesting deck. Pretty much a Mardu Pyromancer deck that managed to fit in Gideon Blackblade and Heart of Kiran. I am not entirely sure what he cut to get them in or how many copies. I did not really engage in much small talk after the game. But he had some pretty explosive starts. There was a skill disparity here though, as he was easily baited into situations where Gideon Blackblade was useless outside of getting Heart of Kiran active.

    Round 2 vs GBw Aggro W 2-0
    I went in thinking this player was on his typical GBw deck, which is more or less just GB Rock splashing white for Lingering Souls and Path to Exile. Maybe he fit in a Gideon Blackblade or something from the new set, I thought. Turns out he was running a similar list, but made use of Death's Shadow. I am not entirely sure what he cut to make it all work, but the games boiled down to sweeping his critters and then just using Gideon of the Trials to stop him from getting through with Gurmag Angler's or Death's Shadow. I only needed to prevent damage enough times to start rolling out Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor before he would eventually concede. MVP's were Gideon of the Trials and Teferi, Time Raveler as they put a stop to any early aggression almost indefinitely. He could not present threats fast enough to get around them early on.

    Round 3 vs Elves W 2-1
    Basically how you would expect a heavy control match vs an all-in deck to go. Game 1 he flooded the board into a Supreme Verdict and was unable to take down Gideon of the Trials to deal with an emblem. Game 2 he played a turn 2 Choke into my tapped Prairie Stream. I kept a Prairie Stream, Field of Ruin, and Teferi, Time Ravelver in my opening just to try and see how he could play and hope to keep him off Choke so I could sweep into Teferi. I was not going to recover from the turn 2 Choke so it was a quick concession. Game 3 played out very similar to how I expected game 2 to go. He played a bunch of dorks into a Supreme Verdict and got to untap into a Teferi, Time Raveler. He went face with what little he had, and I got to instant speed cast a couple more Supreme Verdict before he finally conceded.

    Round 4 vs Affinity w/Galvanic Blast W 2-1
    Game 1 led with a complete hand dump and a Welding Jar. Fortunately it was a bunch of Springleaf Drums and Ornithopters. He was able to apply pressure with 2 Vault Skirge, Inkmoth Nexus, and Blinkmoth Nexus, but not fast enough for me to get Teferi' Time Raveler online and tick up until I could cast an instant speed Supreme Verdict to completely cripple his board. Game 2 was another quick hand dump into a resolved Cranial Plating. Game 3 played out similar to game 1. He played around Teferi, Time Raveler at first, but I sand bagged it for 2 turns and he decided to commit thinking I did not have it. Complete board clear, hitting his lands again, and another concession.

    Final Thoughts
    Overall, I am pretty happy with the list. Narset, Parter of Veils made multiple appearances throughout the night. I sided her in to help dig for sweepers vs aggro decks, where Search was not going to flip anyways. I think that Search for Azcanta has a significantly higher ceiling than Narset, Parter of Veils but a significantly lower floor than Narset. I am not sure if I will completely switch to Narset, as I feel the 3 drop start starts to get kind of clunky. But overall, she was not anything that was game breaking. Just some quality control, which was appreciated.

    Teferi, Time Raveler was great. He never did anything super significant, but he did buy time whenever he would hit the battlefield. Even just bouncing something and then dying to attacks was enough to get a footing in the game. When he actually made significant plays, they were blow outs. I currently attribute this to players just not knowing how to play around him just yet, and suspect that blow out plays will decline as people familiarize themselves with him in UW Control - but it could just be that he is actually that good.

    Dovin's Veto was everything I expected it to be. Very solid upgrade to Negate and I never had issues casting it... but I never needed to cast it on turn 2. Earliest I cast it was turn 3 for a Cranial Plating.

    Moving forward, I may cut Sphinx's Revelation and Vendilion Clique. Not entirely sure what I will replace them with, but I think I would like to run 1 Search for Azcanta and 1 Narset, Parter of Veils then fit in a 2nd Teferi, Time Raveler with a 3rd in the sideboard.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I am not sold that the new Ashiok is actually that good.

    I did play a bit with Narset and Teferi, I think they are both quite strong for 3 mana. I think I was initially testing with low expectations of Teferi, and he ended up exceeding my expectations as a MB candidate. Narest, I may likely drop a SFA for and run a 1/1 split in the main with a 2nd Narset in the board.

    Quote from The Fluff »
    How about Call the Gatewatch instead of Ignite the Beacon? It's less mana intensive at 3 mana.


    Call the Gatewatch is a sorcery...
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Narset, Parter of Veils Combo Control, (AKA Pitch Blue ) Primer
    Quote from D90Dennis14 »
    2. Those cards (Snapback, Shoal, Commandeer) are just very situational cards and not worth building around and playing bad card to like Borderpost (and mediocre bouncespells) to fuel them imho.
    Black gets tou much better options like real removal: Fatal Push, Cast Down (Go For the Throat/Murderous Cut) and Collective Brutality as hand disruption (and additional effects).
    Bouncespells alone (and Shoal) aren't good enough for efficiently interacting and not playing any "real" removal or discard spells (or more countermagic) isn't a great idea imho.


    I think this point is moot, considering the pitch functionality of the deck. You literally just toss the useless spells to cast free cards that are relevant and then you refill your hand. You are not wrong in saying that they are situational, but your evaluation of how impactful they are is quite skewed.

    Borderpost is rather insane in this deck.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Narset, Parter of Veils
    There is a stark difference between something that is a one shot pony and something that can be forcibly played over an over until you can create a lock.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Care to share your list?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [POLL] Planeswalkers as playable generals
    As a player that absolutely loves Planeswalkers and once heavily wanted to use them as Commander (and I have played since the format's inception) - I can honestly say that I have never gotten bored with finding legendary creatures to use.

    In fact, even the Planeswalkers that they introduced specifically to fit into the Command Zone, are walkers I have never actually used as Commanders.

    WOTC is on the right track, print Planeswalkers here and there that sidestep the RC's ability to dictate that PWs cannot be Commanders. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Planeswalkers don't enrich what you can or cannot do in the format already. Sure, flavor wins are nice. We all love flavor wins. But flavor wins don't actually equate to necessity.

    Legalizing Planeswalkers as Commanders means you are now opening up the format to more bans on certain cards in an already oversized banned list.

    I think people forget that you really have to pick and choose your battles, and if not having access ti PWs as Commanders turns you off of the format, then so be it. Go play Brawl. You are literally arguing that not having them legal as Commanders is of detriment to a format that continues to grow anyways...
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Feeling guilty after finally saying "No"
    I just need to get this off of my chest real quick.

    I work overnights at a pet emergency hospital. They are 12-14 hours shifts and often involve critical cases. I do relief work at a daytime clinic (non emergency) in another town about 20 minutes away. I blew a radiator and a hose last Friday heading out to help them out.

    I fixed what I could this weekend, replaced the lower hose (which involved taking parts of the body apart to get to) and was unable to get to the radiator replaced this weekend and unfortunately I had to call in today to finish repairing my radiator and get the car into working order to get to my regular job at the pet ER tonight.

    I almost never say no when shifts need covered or my own shift needs to be swapped at the ER. In fact, I told the day clinic I could not fill in while doing overnight shifts at the ER, but recently they asked me to cover 4 days and I said I would make it work.

    "See a need, fill a need" is kind of how I operate.

    But after having to call in and having the clinic I fill in for when they are short people, tell me they are slammed and need me to come in... has left me feeling guilty for saying "No".

    Should I feel guilty for this? Why or why not?
    Posted in: Real-Life Advice
  • posted a message on Atraxa, Praetor's Planeswalker Superfriends Assemble
    I run 9 creatures, which means I don't get a lot of value out of her static ability. I don't utilize tokens for blocking as much as some people might. I also don't typically run walkers that solely hold their value on the condition that Doubling Season is online.

    Her ultimate is the only reason I would be interested in her and Krosan Grip is much too prevalent in my area to get away with Planeswalkers that offer the bulk, if not all, of their value on an ultimate ability.

    I run 9 out of the 15 Planeswalkers on the original post in this thread and WAR will introduce Narset, Parter of Veils as my 10th.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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