@Wraith pK
White aggro creatures that exile from GY when they attack, Blue modal instants that can force reshuffling of GY into the Library maybe on the back of Mana Leak, Black modal instant speed removal that can also draw from opp graveyard as Light Up the Stage does and then play it for one turn, or until end of turn, Burn that punishes large graveyards, dealing incrementally more damage the more cards you have, Blue Threads of Disloyalty type cards that can also hit GY and return to play creatures under your control, a hatebear that taxes if you want to put more than 3 cards into the GY...
Basically cards that, ideally are maindeckable but even of they're only sideboard material still allow you to progress with your primary game plan while packing hate that maybe isn't blowout good but makes your deck better because you haven't crippled it post sideboarding with trash you have to include in order not to lose.
The problem with these cards is more that they keep on designing payoffs for them, rather than the cards themselves. Arclight Phoenix is obviously pushed to be playable beyond just Standard. Yet it seems that the team never learned from the disaster that was Dredge, when they keep on repeating the same mistake of letting players treat the graveyard like an extension of their hand and cast things essentially for free from it. At least 3 top modern decks operate on the same or similar axis, and since good graveyard hate cards are narrow instead of incidental it railroads the game experience into what people keep on referring to as linear. We need incidental graveyard hate, that is tacked onto good main deck cards and then the abuse will diminish.
It has become incredibly frustrating to discuss changes in modern, where at the start of this increase in linearity I'm arguing with people that this plate of pasta would be much better if we removed the gravel from it, and people insisting the gravel is just fine
Is this hyperbole also ?
When I look at the numbers, Modern is diverse and top decks were not always the same in 2018. Phoenix decks are super popular right now, shared by two distinct variants. MTGtop8 says 11% of the perfs. That's close to what Twin did before its ban, sure. In all of 2018, no deck was on average over 9%. Wouldn't some players whine a bit too much ?
Yes, some decks are a bit out of control for a moment, but Wizards did a good job about them right ? I feel like some players can't suffer an unfavorable meta for a month without neverendlessly whining. I think the format is pretty good because it's easy to figure out what goes wrong, react fast, and balance the meta again (thanks to the banlist and new printings, it's not only via "adapting" our lists to the meta).
Not to flame, but I feel like this topic is constantly fed by old tired Modern analysts. I'm curious whether we could raise the forum so players emotionally complain less and build more cold-blooded criticism, sharing the negative AND the positive in a reasonable manner.
But if you actually would try to max your win percentage to steal a big tournament, there are at most 5 decks you should seriously consider. Isn't it just common sense that if you have to submit to the matchup lottery, the winning strategy is to linear as hard as possible and steal at least game 1?
You don't steal a big tournament if you choose among the top tier decks. You steal it if you win with an underdog deck, that's what I call "steal".
Then, you play more post-SB games than G1s. It's part of Magic to concede G1 to linear strategies, like in Legacy & Vintage. This is where noone is wrong or right, you either choose to play a strong G1 deck, or a strong G2 deck. Not sure it has something to do with the idea linear decks make a format worse.
There's also the fact that if you want to win big tourneys, it implies you gotta spend money first, probably in several expensive decks. To be competitive, you don't complain about the meta, at first you complain about how much money you wasted in decks and trips. Only something stupid like the Eldrazi Winter (because you're tired losing the mirror at the top tables) can cause you to complain about the meta, really.
Is Modern "narrow" right now ? Maybe, but I don't care, I believe it's smart to see Modern in the long term, accept to lose money because of bannings, and accept to let go my pet deck for a better one from time to time. I was on Pod, then on Elves, then on Humans, now on Phoenix. I feel good.
I would say that for a decent chunk of people the meta of Modern is their issue with Modern. Not this or any particular meta but the prevailing meta (of which this one is a good example admittedly). No one is debating around the broken metas, as with the Eldrazi and such. What's there to debate about it? It was just garbage through and through.
The prevailing meta has been that the likes of Burn, Affinity, Infect (while good), G Tron, Dredge, and a small selection of midrange now DS - formerly Jund/Junk as the 'fair' deck representative of the format reign supreme for the greatest chunk of the format's existence. The archetypes have, barring a few select instances (that usually ended with a ban, when some or other combo deck gets out of whack) always been stacked. A lot of people don't like this, but can't afford Legacy (or Legacy is dead where they're from) - don't want to buy into Standard, so they're left with wishing that Modern was a different format. And they probably won't be happy until there's a consistent T1 deck in their archetype of choice, probably somewhere along the span of Combo-Control. Control has never been that, and Combo has never been allowed to stay that.
But can you blame them for that? Modern is the 'new' home of people who have Magic for a long time, and for most of them Modern is the only real choice to stay in the game and avoid the rat race. Expecting them not to have their own expectations of an eternal format is asking quite a lot, particularly as Modern has very consistently catered to other types of players.
T3 Karn was always 'fine', but JTMS was 'too strong for modern' for ages. T3 Karn is still fine and JTMS turned out to be far from overpowering. It just shows that there are preconceived notions that drive the format (which turn out to be plain wrong), but are really just groupthink and a desire to please on WotC's part masquerading as 'format management'.
A lot of things are playable and can (and do) win, and the format is diverse in that regard. That said, the type of deck and gameplay that is clearly a cut above (which does not guarantee victory, eh?), IMO, makes for very boring magic (the overwhelming majority of the time). Just boring. Not completely uninteractive (because it isn't), nor extremely linear (because there are interesting decisions to be made on the pilot side, at least some of the time), but mind numbingly boring to watch. I would rather poke my eyes out than watch another game of G Tron, Dredge or Phoenix vs anything. I've only dived into Standard through Arena recently, and frankly, it's just better to watch and more unpredictable to play, no contest. Oh yea, its also more fun, because there are no non-games where everyone is mulliganing for the one card on which their game plan is made or the opponent's broken.
I'm also skeptical of the impact of Counterspell, other than clearly making UW control better. Its barely played in Legacy, because when it comes to paying mana for answers you just can't beat free, which counterspell is not.
Counterspell would not necessarily make U Tron much better because UU is too heavy a mana cost for the deck to play more than one or two copies of. It would work well only if they printed something like a blue Urborg to go with it, or some other fixer that could make colorless into U with no significant tempo loss/investment.
I'm not thrilled about this at all. If it becomes a regular thing Modern could in effect become a rotating format. And WotC's strategy is to push products for as long as they're financially viable, which means that if this set sells more will come, which means that our decks may become obsolete quite quickly.
You are ignoring that Modern still doesn't have any cards rotating out.
Having olf cards "rotate" into Modern is not really different from going through Standard.
Cards rotate out in the practical sense as they become outstripped in power level by other cards. If 5 modern playable cards enter through Standard the process is very slow and changes are gradual. If 30 enter at once then you can be sure changes will be much faster and more drastic. If this becomes a regular occurrence, for all intents and purposes you have a rotating format. Yes, you can legally play your deck, but if it fell from tier 2 to tier 5 because a dozen new chase mythics have elevated other decks, or made entirely new ones, making yours obsolete - will you really be playing it still or will you be forced to enter the rat race?
This was not the idea behind Modern. Sure, decks come and go in power level and that's okay, but the goal of the format is stability - and it has been stable for a very long time. The idea is that if you're dropping hundreds of euros for a good deck, that it will be playable at least for a good while. And we have that now, for the most part.
I don't think we will if Horizons becomes the norm.
I'm not thrilled about this at all. If it becomes a regular thing Modern could in effect become a rotating format. And WotC's strategy is to push products for as long as they're financially viable, which means that if this set sells more will come, which means that our decks may become obsolete quite quickly.
Nothing rotates out, but a consistent stream of good cards into Modern in a short period of time is practically the equivalent of rotation. Of course we don't know enough yet, but the format has been fine for years sans a few unpleasant metas. This introduces a lot of uncertainty. If they find it lucrative what's to stop them publishing a yearly set for modern? If they do that, how long do you think it will take before half of the current (and very expensive) decks are either gone or have to be replaced at great cost?
It has the potential to be a terrible value proposition, the main draw of modern.
I don't know what to think. I'm considering selling out of the format out of the concern that they will spike the power level and indirectly render our existing decks obsolete. Also, the potential hit on value is a concern.
The reason why I play this format is because it changes only very slowly. If it becomes a second Standard then I just don't want to compete (money wise) in the long run.
My Sideboard is:
2x Surgical Extraction (waiting for them to arrive, so they weren't ready for FNM)
3x Dismember
3x Spatial Contortion
2x Spreading Seas
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Spell Pierce
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sundering Titan (a placeholder really, I don't see what I'd hit with it in this meta)
I cut the Platinum Angel from the maindeck because it seems only good against Elves and even that is not a sure thing, and put in a Tormod's Crypt. I'll test it first and then switch to Relic if I find it lacking. My logic with this is that Relic is a bit slower and the alternative of sniping for one per turn is not as good against the likes of Dredge/Phoenix as it is against midrange i.e. that when I'll want to deal with the GY I'll want it now. Maybe that's not correct, testing will show.
The Titan will go as well, much as I like him, leaving 2 slots.
I only have one Ballista, but yes, the thing is amazing. Still not sure what is cuttable for Dismember, I'm so loath to ditch the occasional value Mindslaver, although you're probably right.
Is baby Karn good in a meta like this, I'm quite uncertain about him. Solemn too.
Went 2-2, beat the Goblins and SS handily - lost to Storm and Elves. Elves I was a turn away from winning, so it didn't seem that stacked, but Storm I just had no idea how to play against.
Obivously it's going to be a very uphill battle with this many bad matchups, but what would be your mainboard tweaks to make the deck more competitive in this environment.
I was thinking of mainboarding a Tormod's Crypt and a single Dismember, but I've no idea what to cut, or if that's even the right chocie.
U Tron takes 1st place in SCG IQ Little Rock. I assume it's a small tourney, but still, the rest of the decks are:
Burn, Burn, Living End, Bogles, Storm, Goblins, Burn.
What did Jeff Hoogland say, U tron can't win past quick decks?
Yeah.
I don't agree with the list that one for 'general use' but it seems pretty clear why mainboard removal, Batterskull, Kefnet etc. were good in that meta.
Legendary Land
Tap to produce blue mana
If a land you control would produce colorless mana it produces that much blue mana instead.
Basically like a much weaker Urborg. It doesn't make the lands into Islands, it doesn't fix all lands (only the colorless ones). Makes eldrazi/colorless spells pretty much uncastable. Other than that I'm not seeing anything too broken
I wonder, if Phoenix continues crushing, whether anything will eat a ban and then what. At the end of the day, it's just a critical mass of dirt cheap spells that work together in a number of decks. If you ban Phoenix it's only a question of time before the exact same thing reemerges with another card in its stead.
White aggro creatures that exile from GY when they attack, Blue modal instants that can force reshuffling of GY into the Library maybe on the back of Mana Leak, Black modal instant speed removal that can also draw from opp graveyard as Light Up the Stage does and then play it for one turn, or until end of turn, Burn that punishes large graveyards, dealing incrementally more damage the more cards you have, Blue Threads of Disloyalty type cards that can also hit GY and return to play creatures under your control, a hatebear that taxes if you want to put more than 3 cards into the GY...
Basically cards that, ideally are maindeckable but even of they're only sideboard material still allow you to progress with your primary game plan while packing hate that maybe isn't blowout good but makes your deck better because you haven't crippled it post sideboarding with trash you have to include in order not to lose.
I would say that for a decent chunk of people the meta of Modern is their issue with Modern. Not this or any particular meta but the prevailing meta (of which this one is a good example admittedly). No one is debating around the broken metas, as with the Eldrazi and such. What's there to debate about it? It was just garbage through and through.
The prevailing meta has been that the likes of Burn, Affinity, Infect (while good), G Tron, Dredge, and a small selection of midrange now DS - formerly Jund/Junk as the 'fair' deck representative of the format reign supreme for the greatest chunk of the format's existence. The archetypes have, barring a few select instances (that usually ended with a ban, when some or other combo deck gets out of whack) always been stacked. A lot of people don't like this, but can't afford Legacy (or Legacy is dead where they're from) - don't want to buy into Standard, so they're left with wishing that Modern was a different format. And they probably won't be happy until there's a consistent T1 deck in their archetype of choice, probably somewhere along the span of Combo-Control. Control has never been that, and Combo has never been allowed to stay that.
But can you blame them for that? Modern is the 'new' home of people who have Magic for a long time, and for most of them Modern is the only real choice to stay in the game and avoid the rat race. Expecting them not to have their own expectations of an eternal format is asking quite a lot, particularly as Modern has very consistently catered to other types of players.
T3 Karn was always 'fine', but JTMS was 'too strong for modern' for ages. T3 Karn is still fine and JTMS turned out to be far from overpowering. It just shows that there are preconceived notions that drive the format (which turn out to be plain wrong), but are really just groupthink and a desire to please on WotC's part masquerading as 'format management'.
A lot of things are playable and can (and do) win, and the format is diverse in that regard. That said, the type of deck and gameplay that is clearly a cut above (which does not guarantee victory, eh?), IMO, makes for very boring magic (the overwhelming majority of the time). Just boring. Not completely uninteractive (because it isn't), nor extremely linear (because there are interesting decisions to be made on the pilot side, at least some of the time), but mind numbingly boring to watch. I would rather poke my eyes out than watch another game of G Tron, Dredge or Phoenix vs anything. I've only dived into Standard through Arena recently, and frankly, it's just better to watch and more unpredictable to play, no contest. Oh yea, its also more fun, because there are no non-games where everyone is mulliganing for the one card on which their game plan is made or the opponent's broken.
Counterspell would not necessarily make U Tron much better because UU is too heavy a mana cost for the deck to play more than one or two copies of. It would work well only if they printed something like a blue Urborg to go with it, or some other fixer that could make colorless into U with no significant tempo loss/investment.
Check it out on his channel, and well done to him
Cards rotate out in the practical sense as they become outstripped in power level by other cards. If 5 modern playable cards enter through Standard the process is very slow and changes are gradual. If 30 enter at once then you can be sure changes will be much faster and more drastic. If this becomes a regular occurrence, for all intents and purposes you have a rotating format. Yes, you can legally play your deck, but if it fell from tier 2 to tier 5 because a dozen new chase mythics have elevated other decks, or made entirely new ones, making yours obsolete - will you really be playing it still or will you be forced to enter the rat race?
This was not the idea behind Modern. Sure, decks come and go in power level and that's okay, but the goal of the format is stability - and it has been stable for a very long time. The idea is that if you're dropping hundreds of euros for a good deck, that it will be playable at least for a good while. And we have that now, for the most part.
I don't think we will if Horizons becomes the norm.
It has the potential to be a terrible value proposition, the main draw of modern.
The reason why I play this format is because it changes only very slowly. If it becomes a second Standard then I just don't want to compete (money wise) in the long run.
My Sideboard is:
2x Surgical Extraction (waiting for them to arrive, so they weren't ready for FNM)
3x Dismember
3x Spatial Contortion
2x Spreading Seas
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Spell Pierce
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sundering Titan (a placeholder really, I don't see what I'd hit with it in this meta)
I cut the Platinum Angel from the maindeck because it seems only good against Elves and even that is not a sure thing, and put in a Tormod's Crypt. I'll test it first and then switch to Relic if I find it lacking. My logic with this is that Relic is a bit slower and the alternative of sniping for one per turn is not as good against the likes of Dredge/Phoenix as it is against midrange i.e. that when I'll want to deal with the GY I'll want it now. Maybe that's not correct, testing will show.
The Titan will go as well, much as I like him, leaving 2 slots.
I only have one Ballista, but yes, the thing is amazing. Still not sure what is cuttable for Dismember, I'm so loath to ditch the occasional value Mindslaver, although you're probably right.
Is baby Karn good in a meta like this, I'm quite uncertain about him. Solemn too.
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Treasure Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Condescend
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Remand
2 Repeal
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Expedition Map
2 Mindslaver
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Academy Ruins
1 Field of Ruin
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 River of Tears
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Tolaria West
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
My local shop meta is:
2x Dredge, 2x Elves, UR Phoneix, 2x G/GB Tron, 1x Storm, 1x Soul Sisters, 1x Goblins
Went 2-2, beat the Goblins and SS handily - lost to Storm and Elves. Elves I was a turn away from winning, so it didn't seem that stacked, but Storm I just had no idea how to play against.
Obivously it's going to be a very uphill battle with this many bad matchups, but what would be your mainboard tweaks to make the deck more competitive in this environment.
I was thinking of mainboarding a Tormod's Crypt and a single Dismember, but I've no idea what to cut, or if that's even the right chocie.
U Tron takes 1st place in SCG IQ Little Rock. I assume it's a small tourney, but still, the rest of the decks are:
Burn, Burn, Living End, Bogles, Storm, Goblins, Burn.
What did Jeff Hoogland say, U tron can't win past quick decks?
Yeah.
I don't agree with the list that one for 'general use' but it seems pretty clear why mainboard removal, Batterskull, Kefnet etc. were good in that meta.
Legendary Land
Tap to produce blue mana
If a land you control would produce colorless mana it produces that much blue mana instead.
Basically like a much weaker Urborg. It doesn't make the lands into Islands, it doesn't fix all lands (only the colorless ones). Makes eldrazi/colorless spells pretty much uncastable. Other than that I'm not seeing anything too broken