Philadelphia is looking a bit more diverse but not that much. One significantly interactive deck in top 8. Seven aggro, aggro-combo or straight up combo decks.
My opinion on Horizons is changing, in some ways I'm looking forward to a hard shakeup of the format.
Stuff like Creeping Chill and Siege rhino and Felidar guardian are mostly fine cards without some busted enabler that short circuits the variance of a deck of 60 cards.
I think wizards will always want to print fun ways to turn cards into mana or break the fundamental rules - it's a really fun design space of magic where you can "make this sacrifice to break this rule" essentially.
So I would 100% expect them to ban the engine not the fuel, as it were. They demonstrated that stance already with Krark-Clan Ironworks. Looting almost surely goes.
It's really hard to get the balance of card selection right in magic from a competitive standpoint. What is a fair price to pay for gaining consistent access to more powerful cards? The tempo and timing restrictions of tutors or cantrips are often enough to make it right to play more functional copies instead of cantrips, but often not.
You can see this play out a little in UW Control eclipsing Jund as the "control" of choice in Modern, and the dynamic of Burn vs. Phoenix as an aggro-ish deck. Phoenix and Hollow One; they figured out ways to turn their cantrips into tempo advantage with Thing + Phoenix (or Hollow one + Bloodghast).
So now they're more efficient aggro decks than Burn because they have better threats and they are more efficient. It's just such a crazy fine balancing act.
I don't think they're banning anything until Horizons settles and past that point it might not even be a topic anymore.
I would say that Phoenix is just the latest of the aggro-control decks to hit Modern that is much further to the Aggro side of the spectrum, and the issue Modern has is not with this deck in particular but with the glut of this type of deck in general (Aggro & Aggro-Control). Because card selection/cantriping/graveyard abuse - so, anything that allows you to see a lot of cards one way or the other - are so good and the creatures in the game are so efficient as a deliberate design decision, the moment these two can be used in tandem they tend to be overwhelmingly powerful.
In one way or the other this is the story of decks like Phoenix and Death's Shadow and to a lesser extent Dredge, Infect and Affinity because they principally lean on broken set mechanics first and everything else second.
I predict that the former graveyard/cantrip+efficient creatures will just keep on getting more and more powerful in Modern relative to those decks that lean on set mechanics simply because the latter are less likely to receive cards that have their specific mechanics or supplement them well whereas the former just needs general cards that are a bit better than what they already have.
Unless, of course, Horizons nukes the format.
What I disagree with is that the current crop of aggro-control/aggro as decks are:
1. Fair decks
2. Good for the format
-They're certainly not fair the sense that Jund was considered to be fair back in the day, in fact, they're hyper efficient. The more interactive ones like DS and Phoenix are merely more fair than the less interactive ones. That's all.
-They maintain format speed. They may not dictate it, depending on who you ask, people say that decks like Tron and Dredge force speed, but its a bit of a chicken and egg discussion. What is certain is that they don't slow down anything or make room for slower decks. They simply crowd an already very populated field, no more, no less.
I don't agree. As it is a midrange deck that can semi-combo off some times(that's the nature of Modern, you have to have a comboesque element if you want to be Tier 1), I legitimately think it adds a lot of good, interesting gameplays into Modern. And no, it's not like Dredge. Dredge can not play the midrange game as it's main plan(think Thing in the ice, pteramander, crackling drake, snappies if you run some), neither is like Storm.
About MH, I hope it does change some stuff. If counterspell is in the mix, it will add something useful for sure. Maybe Diabolic Edict would be great also.
A deck with 20 cantrips and only 2 4CMC cards (that it intends to actually cast for the cost), while the rest is 1-2 CMC is midrange?
I don't think that it was any more busted than any of the other top decks, but I'd also say it doesn't add anything good to modern. Instead I feel it adds more of what we have with Dredge already i.e. the kind of gameplay that leads to a less fun, more zero-sum format. Its just less obvious and somewhat less oppressive when the win con are creatures and not a combo.
It comes down to the fact that there are no ways of reliably stopping strong pro-active plays other than stronger, faster, more degenerate and resilient proactive plays. So the deck with the lowest paid 'price' for its degeneracy (i.e. the axis along which it's vulnerable), combined with the least amount of aggro drawn from the field (either because its that good, or because everyone feels its that good), should, in that environment, do better than others.
The decks will keep on changing at the top but the type of deck that is persistently good has not changed substantially over time. Also the type of deck that is not good or at least not as close to universally good i.e. control, fair creature decks, proper midrange - reactive or decks that cast on curve for incremental advantage - will stay less than optimal. Maybe Horizons shakes that up.
I hope it does. But its worth it to note that the kind of power level needed to effectively and reliably block off a wide range of the degenerate field is also off the charts (on the edge of degeneracy itself) - Countertop, Brainstorm, Daze, Force of Will. Still, from where I'm sitting, Legacy looks like a more balanced format overall. Not by the huge margin some claim, but slightly so.
Shok just went 10-0 across 2 leagues. Great games all around, sick comebacks - you name it. Slaughtered Dredge, Shadow, Phoenix, Jund, UW, KnightFall and I don't know what else.
Old/new tech that turned out well: 2x TKS in Solem/Karn slot and 3x Leyline SB.
TKS turned out to be just the proactive play with a big body that can go offense/defense as seemingly needed in this meta either to block Amalgam Didn't seem like there was a situation in which Solemn and Baby Karn would have been better in that slot in the matches I watched. Leyline forced instant concessions from Dredge players, crippled Phoenix.
why are we all assuming its 36 planeswalkers and not... 5? one for each color? or 10, one for each guild?
also i'm less interested in the planeswalkers being here, and more interested to see the planeswalker interactions/hate thats printed here
This has already been discussed numerous times. The trailer included art for 36 Planeswalkers. MaRo confirmed they're all art for cards in the set. He's then teased via Blogatog both 30+ Planeswalkers and the potential for Uncommon Planeswalkers.
Those specific art pieces are going to be in the set?
Yes and no, the stain glass was a filter they put on art that will be used for the cards.
why are we all assuming its 36 planeswalkers and not... 5? one for each color? or 10, one for each guild?
also i'm less interested in the planeswalkers being here, and more interested to see the planeswalker interactions/hate thats printed here
This has already been discussed numerous times. The trailer included art for 36 Planeswalkers. MaRo confirmed they're all art for cards in the set. He's then teased via Blogatog both 30+ Planeswalkers and the potential for Uncommon Planeswalkers.
Those specific art pieces are going to be in the set?
That suggests these won't be typical PW's but more something like Sagas. It just doesn't seem to be thematic to have them be stained glass art and then normal abilities, rather it makes more sense that there's a concept or mechanic driving why they're all represented in a particular way, much like some Saga's were akin to pages from a book.
I would not be surprised if they're in fact something like limited use planeswalkers, with several different abilities but one time use only for each. I find it hard to believe they balanced around 36 normal, full power planeswalkers without either a lot of brokenness or disappointment down the road.
I voted for 4 but with a caveat. I enjoy playing my deck but find the gameplay that dominates modern, power wise, to be oppressive and boring. I could have just as easily voted for 2, if I was looking solely at my own deck play experience. But persistently being a dog, or at least suboptimal, for enjoying control chips away at my good will toward the format and sometimes I just want to throw in the towel and build Storm,(or any of the top five decks sans DS) and be the guy not caring at all what the other player brings to the table.
Back on the PW topic, we all know several walkers see modern play to varying extents, but has anyone come across a super friends type fringe deck in existence? I've seen walkers used as finishers like in RW prison and UB control and of course Karn, but not what I would call a full out planeswalker deck. If anyone has seen something please post a link to it. If there is a fringe teir 3 walker deck out there this could be a big shot in the arm for it kinda like what spirits got a while back.
Seems to me that pws aren't nearly impactful and fast enough to make a deck of in modern
I just cannot imagine most of the walkers being on the typical power level, there has to be a catch in it somewhere.
It's nice that there will be so many of them to choose from, although after this set, the PW kinda ceases to be a 'special' card. It already has, what with the way they print them even in trash precons, but WoS seems set to take that to the next level.
I dunno, we put cards in our decks because they're good i.e. because they enable us to move forward with our game plan. Most cards are enablers, so the definition ends up being so broad as to be useless.
Isn't it simpler to talk about cards that just provide too much for what they cost, (maybe in too many decks as well) if we're discussing bans and format health.
Another FNM. Not much luck in the matchup lottery. Played Elves, Eldrazi and Taxes, UW Control and G Tron. The G Tron match went 1-1 and then we ran out of time and went to a draw, lost 0-2 to E&D, crushed UW Control 2-0 (the draws in that matchup were insane) and lost 1-2 to Elves.
My Surgicals still haven't arrived so I wasn't on full power vs G Tron post board, and vs the Elves I'm pretty sure I played a bad game 3.
Eldrazi and Taxes were pretty much unwinnable with the cards I saw he had in hand.
UW Control was about as lopsided as the E&T match but in the other direction. T3 tron from me and Ballista (and Ballista was the worst payoff card in my hand...), he paths it and ramps me into blue that I didn't have and a T4 Sundering Titan with Remand backup. You can guess how that went with him playing two fetches the first two turns. Game two I have Tron T4 and just start slamming down threads. I bait out a Detention Sphere with Baby Karn, so he taps out on his turn and I go for Mindslaver, decimate his hand, build the lock and gg. Poor guy went 0-4 with his all foiled out 2500$ deck...
While I'm not putting up any notable results, this was my second FNM ever and I played against a lot of more experienced players. It didn't help that I go to work in a different city so by 7PM when the FNM starts I've already been up and doing things for 12 hours. So I'm not entirely unhappy with how things turned out.
I did notice that the power level of G Tron is really off the charts because the pilot is a kitchen table Magic player that has just built the deck recently and he went off to take third or fourth place against a host of both better and more experienced players. I understand what people mean when they say they don't like modern, because some of the matchups you really lose to the decks (which practically play themselves) not the player or any sort of back and forth where you're outplaying each other.
My opinion on Horizons is changing, in some ways I'm looking forward to a hard shakeup of the format.
I don't think they're banning anything until Horizons settles and past that point it might not even be a topic anymore.
In one way or the other this is the story of decks like Phoenix and Death's Shadow and to a lesser extent Dredge, Infect and Affinity because they principally lean on broken set mechanics first and everything else second.
I predict that the former graveyard/cantrip+efficient creatures will just keep on getting more and more powerful in Modern relative to those decks that lean on set mechanics simply because the latter are less likely to receive cards that have their specific mechanics or supplement them well whereas the former just needs general cards that are a bit better than what they already have.
Unless, of course, Horizons nukes the format.
What I disagree with is that the current crop of aggro-control/aggro as decks are:
1. Fair decks
2. Good for the format
-They're certainly not fair the sense that Jund was considered to be fair back in the day, in fact, they're hyper efficient. The more interactive ones like DS and Phoenix are merely more fair than the less interactive ones. That's all.
-They maintain format speed. They may not dictate it, depending on who you ask, people say that decks like Tron and Dredge force speed, but its a bit of a chicken and egg discussion. What is certain is that they don't slow down anything or make room for slower decks. They simply crowd an already very populated field, no more, no less.
A deck with 20 cantrips and only 2 4CMC cards (that it intends to actually cast for the cost), while the rest is 1-2 CMC is midrange?
It comes down to the fact that there are no ways of reliably stopping strong pro-active plays other than stronger, faster, more degenerate and resilient proactive plays. So the deck with the lowest paid 'price' for its degeneracy (i.e. the axis along which it's vulnerable), combined with the least amount of aggro drawn from the field (either because its that good, or because everyone feels its that good), should, in that environment, do better than others.
The decks will keep on changing at the top but the type of deck that is persistently good has not changed substantially over time. Also the type of deck that is not good or at least not as close to universally good i.e. control, fair creature decks, proper midrange - reactive or decks that cast on curve for incremental advantage - will stay less than optimal. Maybe Horizons shakes that up.
I hope it does. But its worth it to note that the kind of power level needed to effectively and reliably block off a wide range of the degenerate field is also off the charts (on the edge of degeneracy itself) - Countertop, Brainstorm, Daze, Force of Will. Still, from where I'm sitting, Legacy looks like a more balanced format overall. Not by the huge margin some claim, but slightly so.
Old/new tech that turned out well: 2x TKS in Solem/Karn slot and 3x Leyline SB.
TKS turned out to be just the proactive play with a big body that can go offense/defense as seemingly needed in this meta either to block Amalgam Didn't seem like there was a situation in which Solemn and Baby Karn would have been better in that slot in the matches I watched. Leyline forced instant concessions from Dredge players, crippled Phoenix.
Ah ok, interesting.
Those specific art pieces are going to be in the set?
That suggests these won't be typical PW's but more something like Sagas. It just doesn't seem to be thematic to have them be stained glass art and then normal abilities, rather it makes more sense that there's a concept or mechanic driving why they're all represented in a particular way, much like some Saga's were akin to pages from a book.
I would not be surprised if they're in fact something like limited use planeswalkers, with several different abilities but one time use only for each. I find it hard to believe they balanced around 36 normal, full power planeswalkers without either a lot of brokenness or disappointment down the road.
Seems to me that pws aren't nearly impactful and fast enough to make a deck of in modern
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qStbp1qB8CE&ab_channel=MagicAids
Less consistent but still viable.
It's nice that there will be so many of them to choose from, although after this set, the PW kinda ceases to be a 'special' card. It already has, what with the way they print them even in trash precons, but WoS seems set to take that to the next level.
Isn't it simpler to talk about cards that just provide too much for what they cost, (maybe in too many decks as well) if we're discussing bans and format health.
My Surgicals still haven't arrived so I wasn't on full power vs G Tron post board, and vs the Elves I'm pretty sure I played a bad game 3.
Eldrazi and Taxes were pretty much unwinnable with the cards I saw he had in hand.
UW Control was about as lopsided as the E&T match but in the other direction. T3 tron from me and Ballista (and Ballista was the worst payoff card in my hand...), he paths it and ramps me into blue that I didn't have and a T4 Sundering Titan with Remand backup. You can guess how that went with him playing two fetches the first two turns. Game two I have Tron T4 and just start slamming down threads. I bait out a Detention Sphere with Baby Karn, so he taps out on his turn and I go for Mindslaver, decimate his hand, build the lock and gg. Poor guy went 0-4 with his all foiled out 2500$ deck...
While I'm not putting up any notable results, this was my second FNM ever and I played against a lot of more experienced players. It didn't help that I go to work in a different city so by 7PM when the FNM starts I've already been up and doing things for 12 hours. So I'm not entirely unhappy with how things turned out.
I did notice that the power level of G Tron is really off the charts because the pilot is a kitchen table Magic player that has just built the deck recently and he went off to take third or fourth place against a host of both better and more experienced players. I understand what people mean when they say they don't like modern, because some of the matchups you really lose to the decks (which practically play themselves) not the player or any sort of back and forth where you're outplaying each other.