Seems like he does pretty much nothing for us. He is no better than regular Ugin against most decks (in fact, substantially worse), lacking in the ability to control the board on entry, with a useful but not game winning ability - at least not quickly enough (the draw bear creation) and a discount effect that is not too good for us, while coming it at a mana cost that we can already use to play (some of our) directly game winning cards.
Well, with 2 talisman in the deck, having them be the on curve play is not that likely. If I play them, its often when they ramp but don't interrupt my ability to respond, like T3 when you have remand in hand, T4, T5.
In all honesty, I am hoping for cards in Modern Horizon that are so powerful and/or flexible that we are forced into less concessions while deckbuilding, and the Talismans are of course, a concession of a sort. But so are the 2 Dismembers or 2 Chalice, you might play in their place..
In my experience the Talismans are really relevant for manafixing, discarding, accidental ramp and baby Karn. On one hand this is self evident, but on the other it isn't - people routinely underestimate how these small edges add up.
The deck has definite chinks in its armor in mana, speed, and at times being forced to make suboptimal Thirst decisions (without artifacts). The talismans are not going to take it to the next level but they definitely improve it.
If you exchange them for good answers a la 4 Chalice (presuming 2 main) or 2 removal spells, the deck still works of course but its a lopsided compromise. Some games you will crush by having the correct answer, others you will have a 0 value card in hand.
The Talismans are sometimes a 0 value card in hand, but rarely so, and sometimes just the thing you need.
I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.
WotC doesn't design cards with balance in Modern in mind. They may have that perspective from time to time, but interactions with modern cards are really not a preoccupation. At the end of the day anything can be banned out of the format, if need be.
I don't know if you've guys seen the rumor regarding the new Ugin, but if it is correct I find the card fairly underwhelming for 6 mana, at least when it comes to our needs. It is not really a win con, and it costs a lot for a "manifest" bear factory stapled to a narrower vindicate.
I don't see the cost reduction as particularly powerful in our case because it requires cards for sequencing, Ugin surviving and living long enough to drop him. The card just does not turn the game around on its own like our other finishers.
It is good, but in my estimation, not good enough. I hope its fake.
I don't know if we can afford to go so low on wincons in the main and hope we draw the Karn (even if it is a 4 of) to win the game. Although I guess if set up more similar to yours, we could try to mimic UW control with basically no win cons besides the walkers. Maybe something like:
I very much like the consistency have 3s and 4s in our deck gives. This also allows us to have that tutor package a lot of us really love about this deck. There perhaps should be some number of Chalice of the Void in the main but its always 50/50 whether its good in any given matchup in modern.
With the Karn, Lattice combo as long as the opponent doesn't already have creatures out we win the game so this is definitely a strong potential wincon.
That's one thing I was worried about when I made the list, that we would be making a gimped version of U/W control with an overall lower card quality.
It will be interesting to see how far down cutting the tutors and tools from the deck we can go in favor of new Karn. While he is a Turn slower than the mages, he can partially or outright replace a ton of cards in the deck. But it will be tricky to see which cards absolutely have to stay maindeck, other than the maps and which can go to the SB.
Hypothetically we can offset the slowness of the card by replacing the finishers with our most efficient interaction, so that we can more effectively buy that one more turn we so often need.
We shouldn't stray too hard into buffing the matchups that are already good. Whir is already a very one sided matchup.
But Dismember and Spatial, mainboard without crippling ourselves. That does sound good. It also indirectly makes Condescend better because it stays valid for longer if you can kill whatever slipped past it in the first few turns, enough to have tron online.
It goes without saying, but this is another (slow) way to get Tron online.
It is. Suffice to say I don't look forward to seeing this thing on the other side of the table vs Whir Prison. Of course it hits them like a brick as well.
It does hate on G Tron pretty bad, shuts off no less than 22 cards in that deck, and if it lands they have no removal other than a resolved exile effect!
Shuts down Hardened Affinity if it can land.
Can make Talismans into bears vs Control and force them to use removal.
What I like is offsetting the weaknesses of the Toolbox where you just draw narrow cards that do nothing at times (Crypt, EE, Oblivion Stone, too many chalice) ...and die.
...This Karn also instakills all 0 cost noncreature artifacts. It also combos with our removal to kill practically any artifact played in modern. So it can deal even with things like Ensnaring Bridge via spatial/dismember.
Teferi and Gideon for the Win. Even Lab Man Jace. A good day if you like Azorius. 4 Walkers for Teferi and 3 out of 4 are Good with the bad one being a normal planeswalker deck crap walker.
Gideon and Teferi look to be the most busted cards in this pile
So, guys, the new 4 mana Karn can tutor twice for any artifact from the SB. I dare say this has some potential for us.
The other abilities seem somewhat fringe from our perspective, although they do function as an okay hate piece against Tron and Whir and chump creators.
Karn, the Great Creator 4
Legendary Planeswalker - Karn Rare
Activated abilities of artifacts your opponent's control cannot be activated.
+1 >> Until your next turn, up to one target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness
equal to its converted mana cost.
-2 >> You may reveal an artifact card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.
<<5>>
I see the possibility of trimming down our finisher/toolkit density in favor of more interaction and keeping the T4 ramp plan, so that we can take our finishers off of the SB or super narrow hate cards out of the deck. Things like Oblivion Stone, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Tormods Crypt, Chalice, Pithing Needle... etc. may free up some slots for us for more maindeck removal and card draw.
On the other hand, this can be had with the Gifts plan and even then its often too slow in Modern.
In all honesty, I am hoping for cards in Modern Horizon that are so powerful and/or flexible that we are forced into less concessions while deckbuilding, and the Talismans are of course, a concession of a sort. But so are the 2 Dismembers or 2 Chalice, you might play in their place..
The deck has definite chinks in its armor in mana, speed, and at times being forced to make suboptimal Thirst decisions (without artifacts). The talismans are not going to take it to the next level but they definitely improve it.
If you exchange them for good answers a la 4 Chalice (presuming 2 main) or 2 removal spells, the deck still works of course but its a lopsided compromise. Some games you will crush by having the correct answer, others you will have a 0 value card in hand.
The Talismans are sometimes a 0 value card in hand, but rarely so, and sometimes just the thing you need.
I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.
I don't know if you've guys seen the rumor regarding the new Ugin, but if it is correct I find the card fairly underwhelming for 6 mana, at least when it comes to our needs. It is not really a win con, and it costs a lot for a "manifest" bear factory stapled to a narrower vindicate.
I don't see the cost reduction as particularly powerful in our case because it requires cards for sequencing, Ugin surviving and living long enough to drop him. The card just does not turn the game around on its own like our other finishers.
It is good, but in my estimation, not good enough. I hope its fake.
That's one thing I was worried about when I made the list, that we would be making a gimped version of U/W control with an overall lower card quality.
1x Academy Ruins
1x Field of Ruin
1x Gemstone Caverns
5x Island
1x River of Tears
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
1x Tolaria West
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Ramp+Tutor
4x Expedition Map
2x Talisman of Dominance
4x Karn, the Great Creator
2x Chalice of the Void
4x Condescend
1x Cyclonic Rift
3x Dismember
3x Remand
2x Repeal
2x Spatial Contortion
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
Non-Tutorable WinCon
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Value/Draw
1x Mindslaver (just in case)
1x Snapcaster Mage
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Jester's Cap
1x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Pithing Needle
1x Platinum Angel
2x Spreading Seas
1x Sundering Titan
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Walking Ballista
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Wurmcoil Engine
I see Chalice as pretty bad in the SB. Most of the time I think we want it early, or not at all.
Thirst gets worse in this list, with only 8 targets.
We shouldn't stray too hard into buffing the matchups that are already good. Whir is already a very one sided matchup.
But Dismember and Spatial, mainboard without crippling ourselves. That does sound good. It also indirectly makes Condescend better because it stays valid for longer if you can kill whatever slipped past it in the first few turns, enough to have tron online.
It goes without saying, but this is another (slow) way to get Tron online.
It does hate on G Tron pretty bad, shuts off no less than 22 cards in that deck, and if it lands they have no removal other than a resolved exile effect!
Shuts down Hardened Affinity if it can land.
Can make Talismans into bears vs Control and force them to use removal.
What I like is offsetting the weaknesses of the Toolbox where you just draw narrow cards that do nothing at times (Crypt, EE, Oblivion Stone, too many chalice) ...and die.
...This Karn also instakills all 0 cost noncreature artifacts. It also combos with our removal to kill practically any artifact played in modern. So it can deal even with things like Ensnaring Bridge via spatial/dismember.
Gideon dies to Path and Dismember. Great card though.
Teferi seems very good. Does U/W control want him, that is the question. It doesn't seem like a maindeck card.
Gideon and Teferi look to be the most busted cards in this pile
The other abilities seem somewhat fringe from our perspective, although they do function as an okay hate piece against Tron and Whir and chump creators.
Karn, the Great Creator 4
Legendary Planeswalker - Karn Rare
Activated abilities of artifacts your opponent's control cannot be activated.
+1 >> Until your next turn, up to one target noncreature artifact becomes an artifact creature with power and toughness
equal to its converted mana cost.
-2 >> You may reveal an artifact card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.
<<5>>
I see the possibility of trimming down our finisher/toolkit density in favor of more interaction and keeping the T4 ramp plan, so that we can take our finishers off of the SB or super narrow hate cards out of the deck. Things like Oblivion Stone, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Tormods Crypt, Chalice, Pithing Needle... etc. may free up some slots for us for more maindeck removal and card draw.
On the other hand, this can be had with the Gifts plan and even then its often too slow in Modern.
I was thrown off by the size, but Ajani is apparently much taller than a human so technically, the sizing is correct. It just looks really funny.
But then the bad guys have a very power ranger mooks feel to them. I can't help finding the egyptian ninja suits really funny