You ask questions, you provide opinions and reads, but you do not give any sign of wanting to have an impact on the game.
We could go back in time and undo nearly all your posts and absolutely nothing would change, the exact same events would happen at the exact same time. The exception is #25, and only because it was the start of a chain reaction.
The same cannot be said of Grape and HR's posts. Regarding HR in particular, I have no idea why you are implying I viewed him as not proactive, especially considering my scumread on him was an OMGUS reaction to his (both very proactive and very wrong) attacks on me.
By the way, I still remember HR and Grape's play even if I did not reread them. I don't have Alzheimer's yet.
If you are town then where am I wrong? Who is scum instead of you?
Like I pointed out earlier, I make the least sense out of anyone as anyone else's buddy.
The only way you can fit me in a scum-pairing is to come up with a theory that, itself, is only justified by being the only way you can fit me in a scum-pairing.
If you are town, you should realise how wrong that is. If you are scum... keep going I guess.
I don't need to reread Grape and HR to tell they have been two of the most proactive players in the game. Meanwhile you and Johnny have been the two most passive and wait-and-see players by a large margin. It should be no mystery why I scumread the two of you above either of them.
My worldview is that Johnny and you were expecting toDay to be a breeze, with Grape and HR voting me, me voting HR and the two of you waiting for a chance to hammer.
Meanwhile, I did my best to reset my reads after Pokechu's misbonk. After I had been proven wrong once, I had all the reasons in the world not to go back on my one-man crusade as if nothing had happened.
As a result I changed my reads out of apparently nowhere, and now you and Johnny both have to fit me into pairings that make zero sense, round-peg-in-square-hole style. Credits to Highroller as well for not going after my throat as soon as the Day started.
I may be wrong. Maybe Grape is pulling the wool over my eyes, maybe I am too forgiving towards HR. Despite this uncertainty, I stand by the first paragraph of this post.
So you wouldn’t target the guy you’re gonna kill with another ability that sounds like it might prevent protection? And doesn’t give a possible track on you two targets? I mean... come on. We’re not dumb lol.
How the heck do you read "doorman" and think "it might prevent protection"?
I think ZDS/GJ is my final answer because I think HR is town and Grape/ZDS makes no sense.
ZDS setting up a chainyeet on GJ/me with ate to Grape and HR and then that obvious “I would never do this as mafia” lie seals the deal on him.
Of course he doesn’t care if his buddy dies toDay as long as I die toMorrow.
Now that's a hot take. If the scum team is Johnny and I, why would we try a "chainyeet" bussing gamble when we could gang up on literally anyone and win the game toDay?
In addition, why would I not maintain my town read on Johnny from yesterDay? Nobody would bat an eye at it, I would show some consistency and he and I would have no need to run the world's most pointless gamble.
You could maybe argue Johnny is bussing me for safety, since I am the top scum read by a margin. The other way around makes no sense.
@ZDS: walk me through the thought process of “HR is mafia” to “HR is probably town because Wisp and Pokechu are mafia” to “HR is town because Rhand and GJ are mafia”. Apart from calling other people mafia, you never gave a reason why you dropped the HR scumread, you told him you would continue the discussion toDay if Poke flipped town, you said you townread Wisp after rereading but you even skipped HR in that reread. It makes no sense.
Reason #1 is because my scumread on him ran its course. Early on he didn't seem as convinced by his own arguments as he was in Snow White, but as time went on he showed more and more conviction.
Reason #2 is because he's been so hostile to Grape and Johnny (and me), his only possible scumbuddy is you. I am not entirely discounting that option, but I find it less likely than you+Johnny
Player Awards:
Best Town Performance (Individual) — Tomslogger in Prison Block II, he had a bad start but after this he was on top of his game (/barning Grape).
Best Mafia Performance (Individual) — Orangeandblack5 in Voldemort, for replacing into a suspected spot and quickly getting himself town read. His death after he messed up and got himself modkilled (which I don't hold against him, he wasn't trying to cheat) was the turning point that led to the mafia's defeat even though their victory seemed guaranteed at that point.
Best 3rd Party Performance (Individual)
Best Town Performance (Group) — Snow White, so many players were on the ball, it's amazing the scum lasted as long as they did.
Best Mafia Performance (Group)
Best Town Player — ZeDorkSlipeur, every game I played in ended in a town victory, every other game ended in a mafia victory. This has to mean something!Ampharos (actual vote), she exemplifies great town play: she puts in a lot of effort, is extremely easy to town read and she's a joy to play with as well.
Best Mafia Player
Best Overall Player — Rhand, he's great in any role and has no major flaw.
Best Newcomer
Most Entertaining Player — Lastwhisper, zoomiest zoomer that ever zoomed.
Most Improved Player
Mod Awards:
Best Design — Prison Block II, simple yet elegant and fun.
Best Flavor — Snow White, I prefer short and sweet flavour over walls of text I don't read, and I loved the macabre humour of the death scenes.
Best Role
Best Read
Game of the Year
I wish we still did "funniest false claim", so I could nominate Rhand's gambler claim in Prison Block II. :-p
Also, who is actually new among the newcomers? (As in, didn't play forum Mafia at all until this year?)
If all claimed targets and rolenames are true, then:
— Johnny the Gentleman tried to "observe" Rhand, which makes sense in many worlds (scum GJ watching over scum RH for safety, scum GJ observing town RH for info, town GJ watching over ??? RH in case he's NKed);
— Grape tried to "manipulate" me, which makes the most sense from the perspective of a townie scumreading me: I would expect scum Grape to manipulate a better townie than me, such as Whispy ;
— Highroller tried to "decide" me, which again makes the most sense from the perspective of a townie scumreading me for the same reasons as with Grape ;
— Rhand tried to "command" Grape, which makes the most sense from the perspective of a scum trying to mess with a strong townie, and I have a hard time swallowing the "middle of [his] reads" justification.
So claimed action are +town for Grape and HR, NAI for Johnny and +scum for Rhand.
As for my own claim of "doormanning" the NK victim, there really isn't a way to talk about it that doesn't taste like wine. Nevertheless, for the record, if I were scum I would not have targeted the NK victim in the first place.
Of course I am. That's the entire benefit of the town in a small game: You are supposed to evaluate pairs, and there are things you can see or actions someone can do that makes it obvious that wolf players A and B don't interact like that.
Mockery aside, do something. Rhand is twiddling his thumbs waiting for I don't know what, and Johnny is so serious about his pairings he apparently believes HR and me could be a team.
Well if not's Grape, the only two teams I can see are you and Highroller, and you and Rhand. If you are actually town, and I am town, that's the only logical conclusion. That's the entire point of this tytpe of analysis as you bloody well know.
So according to you scum-I came out of the gates voting one of my possible buddies who immediately OMGUSed me until you interfered, and afterwards scum-me and my other possible buddy spent most of the Day tearing each other to pieces.
Meanwhile, you say Grape/ZDS isn't a viable pairing because Grape (who never put as much effort into flooping me as HR did) was quick in joining my wagon. That to you is more significant than any of the above.
Rereading your play as a whole, without getting swayed by details that seem significant but are actually not (such as whether I agree with your arguments).
Time is passing by and we are barely done mass-claiming, we should focus on deciding who to yeet...
... and about that, I happen to be the least likely scum out of us five.
Thanks to my awful play, all four of you are looking at me with bloodthirsty eyes. Since we are at flush-or-fail it is hard to imagine scum would choose to bus rather than pluck the fruit hanging so low it has become a potato.
I took 12 of them because sending a message to my top scum read is pretty pointless. So I decided to pretend I was talking to you from the grave and that you were town while not really believing that was the world we were in.
Not convinced? Fine, let's go in depth.
Highroller and I have spent most of yesterDay trying to kill each other while everyone else (except Grape) watched without taking a side. The chances of us acting in cahoots are extremely low.
Grape, in addition to being openly hostile to me, used his "Manipulator" ability on me. There is no point to that if we were buddies, and the message he ended up having to write proves he is not lying about his target. Aside from HR's conspiracy theories from yesterDay, we are essentially confirmed not-together.
With Johnny and Rhand it is more complex, neither of them is as explicit about scumreading me as HR and Grape are.
Thankfully I think they are scum (by POE), which allows me to make this proposal:
@Highroller, @Grape: Pick one of Johnny or Rhand for me to vote, and I will vote him.
This way there will be no reason to believe I may decide to vote one while being partnered with the other.
@Johnny, @Rhand: Chances are Highroller is going to disagree with my proposal on grounds of still believing Grape and I are scumbuddies. Help him by contradicting yourselves and telling him he's right.
Mockery aside, do something. Rhand is twiddling his thumbs waiting for I don't know what, and Johnny is so serious about his pairings he apparently believes HR and me could be a team.
Whether you guys (the two among you four who are town) listen to the evidence in spite of who is presenting it (and how, ZDS sure is an arrogant prick), or whether you keep going and we gloriously crash and burn, is entirely up to you. I allow you to hate my guts, the facts won't change: I am proven town by virtue of playing so badly everyone, both town and scum, wants to kick me out.
@ZDS the message was sent after my decision was locked. I was told 24 hours before the day start that I could send you a message. Which came as a surprise as a 140 character message doesn't particularly feel manipulative.
I took 12 of them because sending a message to my top scum read is pretty pointless. So I decided to pretend I was talking to you from the grave and that you were town while not really believing that was the world we were in.
Thank you for clarifying this, it makes a lot more sense now.
Grape's message: It contained his reads in a town-ZDS world: Rhand scum, Johnny+Rhand buddies, HR town, Whispy+Rhand not buddies (heavily paraphrased).
I am townreading Grape for it is because of how well this fits with my own post-reread worldview, especially Johnny+Rhand as the most likely team.
If Grape was scum he would have used this message to pocket me (which would be strange on its own), and to pocket me he would have tried to reflect my own reads from EoD1 (notably Johnny town, Whispy scum).
The only two things that give me a little pause, though I am not sure they are significant, are:
@Grape:
1) Why pick me for your legacy? Scum-ZDS was probably the only one who could have prioritised killing you (I think), so if you were scumreading me it would have made more sense to pick someone else.
2) Did you hope to mess with me in addition to sending the message? Because I am not sure how the message itself was supposed to mess with me.
Upgrades: The only two players who did not receive an upgrade are me and Grape, so unless I'm wrong on Grape I'm positive the entire scum-team got one.
I figured they might be the secondary result of some abilities (eg depending on your pick you get nothing/an upgrade/your actual ability) but it might be more complex than that.
I was also curious why my top scumteam had both received an upgrade, but since HR confirmed he also did that's become moot.
HR's pick of target: There is absolutely nothing surprising about him targeting me and hoping for a "decisive" effect. Makes him +town if he really did.
Set-up spec?: I threw scissors and both Grape and HR threw paper. However, only Grape's ability seemed to have an effect. So it's probable who "wins" RPS is irrelevant, or is only relevant in an unpredictable way.
Regarding the possibility of neutrals, I'm analysing the game like it doesn't exist. I'm only considering it in the first place because of Johnny's "town siding" comment.
The game is based on rock-paper-scissors, there being 3 sides would not be that surprising. Whether the game can have three sides and be balanced and not-bastard is another question and I am not willing to bet on the answer.
Re: the message: It makes me believe Grape is town (more than I already did), is it more clear that way?
Sorry about the pointless taunt Johnny, my imagination goes haywire when I don't understand something.
You did not address the elephant in the room, so please do. What's that about "town siding"?
Wut.
Elephent in the room? That was just me saying I was town siding on you at the time of highroller's vote. As a further justification of why I don't think Grape's vote on you is ever a bus. Is something unclear about that?
"Town siding" in a Mafia context means "to side with the town". It's something 3rd parties can do (I made the "scumchat" accusation in the spur of the moment, in part because of the shifting pronouns, I was wrong).
Looking up "town siding mafia" in various search engines returns results that conform to my definition.
I ask you with no sarcasm: are you a neutral or 3rd party?
@Not-Johnny Don't sleep on this. If anyone is more familiar with Johnny's definition of "town siding" than with mine please let me know.
Poke still hadn't posted at that time, nor had I (about ZDS, but from before I was town siding so unless he thinks HR really red handed you, safe to assume where I would stick).
The pronouns are all weird. Why his "ZDS" in the third person? Who is "you", if not me? What's that about town siding?
I'm confused, did you mean to post this in scumchat???
I am back. You guys should stop spamming so much while I'm away.
I. First of all, I would like to apologise for yesterDay's fiasco. As the main pusher behind Poke's bop (while Rhand and Johnny were... there, and Whispy was openly against it), I feel responsible for it and toDay I want to make up for my mistakes.
II. I spent the entire Day 1 only looking at details and individual posts without considering the whole. Not only did I miss the forest for the trees, I also missed the tree for the bark. To compensate, I looked up everyone's ISOs as a whole, to get a holistic view of each player.
These are my observations:
Johnny: He is mostly notable for defending Rhand and me vs each other and sort of defending Grape (vs Highroller). He has been scumreading Grape since essentially the beginning, but has been very passive about pushing that read — be it to figure Grape out or to get him bopped. I have a hard time understanding why he (sort of) defended Grape, his (only?) scum-read, against HR.
Highroller, Grape: I ended up skipping them both. The point of holistic analysis is to not get stuck on details, and I could not get past the tiny detail that they both spent so much time and energy pushing a wrong bop on me. I still have my details-level read on them from yesterDay (Grape OK, HR meh).
Rhand: He spent most of the Day seemingly without a scum-read, beyond his OMGUS on me that he didn't push very much. He did ask questions and regularly share his thoughts, so I can't say he hasn't been scumhunting, with the caveat that I don't quite get how his Poke vote followed from the questions he asked (if it did).
Whispy: He's dead so no need to go into details (I will if asked), to summarise he seemed actively looking for answers and his thought progressions were (for the most part) clear.
III. Based on the above, I have a few questions:
@Johnny:
1) Can you summarise your entire Grape read? How it started, how it evolved, what is its current status.
2) If you are scumreading Grape because of #31, then what about #55 where you said to Rhand "I think you are putting way too much stock into the first page of posts that people make"?
3) Why did you argue with Highroller about whether me flipping scum would make Grape scum or town, and why did you take the "it would make Grape town" side?
4) Not a question, just an FYI about HR latest posts: he is saying that either no scum voted Poke which only leaves Grape and him as possible scum, or at least one scum did which means at least one of [you, Rhand, me] is scum. It's extremely basic wagon analysis, but still worth mentioning.
@Rhand:
Before voting Poke you were questioning him, but then when you voted the reason given had nothing to do with those questions.
Did your questions influence your decision to vote him? What would you have done if he had not posted the post that proverbially broke the camel's back?
Regarding what I figured my role could do, I had absolutely no clue and hoped to "open the door to a more positive future". I picked Scissors because they evoke the opening of a door.
IV. In conclusion, I don't want to die (entirely because I don't want to be responsible for the town's loss), I hope I can make amends for my bad play, and I have Johnny at the top of my scum-list by a thin margin.
It's early morning and I just woke up so I'm not going to make a long post or comment on anything, but I agree we should massclaim and I was already planning on claiming in my first post no matter what happened (I'm obviously the #1 kick candidate after yesterDay).
I am the Doorman, I Scissored Whispy (hoping to do something helpful for him, he was my top town after re-reading) and I received no Night result.
Looking at my own ISO I have been extremely open about my reads, I have explained them in details every time and I have also been very open when someone or something made me change my mind.
Therefore I have to assume you are not acting in good faith when you say "[I'm] just trying to label something as scummy", "[I] want it to be scum so clearly it must be" or that I'm not "put[ting] thought into [my] reads and consider[ing] if they make sense".
Granted, the top part of my previous post was unusually sarcastic and lacking in details. Please forgive me Mr Time Lord, and please tell us how you were able to use posts 185, 193 and 199 to justify the reads you posted in 151.
The only way this is possible is if you looked into Whispy and Rhand's ISOs not with the intent to determine their alignments, but instead with the intent to find posts you could put on display to illustrate your reads after the fact.
Show us how your actions make sense from the perspective of a townie acting in good faith and legitimately trying to solve the game.
———
(Side note, why is there nobody around? Is everyone asleep?)
211 and 222 make me doubt my Poke scum read, they show Poke having the ability to see the future and base his reads (seen in 151) on posts that hadn't been made yet. How could such an amazing power not come from town?
Just kidding, he is blatantly making-up his reads after the fact. Kill him with fire.
you didn't even consider any implications of a PokeWisp team. Do you think that scum!Pokechu and scum!Wisp deliberately avoid interacting with each other? You comment that I'm stirring the pot, with what posts? (Stirring the pot is a vague term). Like, it's lazy solving because you're just trying to label something (Wisp and I not interacting) as scummy so it gets your vote. It's like saying "town wouldn't do X so I'm voting for [name]." Like yeah X might be a thing town shouldn't do but it doesn't automatically mean [name] earns your vote. It's lazy. Dig deeper.
What about these interactions?
That's the textbook definition of a strawman, countering an argument that was never actually made.
What I actually did was 1. find suspicious how the catch-up had basically nothing to say to or about Whispy, and 2. call out Whispy for not interacting with you until after I posted 1.
None of your quotes, including the one you called lazy solving, have any relevance in that regard.
———
@Whispy: Bruh, I literally town-cased Johnny (same person as GJ) in 205. I'm adding a caveat though that if anyone is trying to pocket me by roughly mimicking my reads, it's him.
Also: It bothered you that I have "sussed" most players at some point, but now you are saying Johnny is scum for refusing to yeet too many players. Isn't that contradictory?
Which is scummy, too many scum reads or not enough?
(Or does it bother you that he's planning on staying out of the DorkRoller dichotomy ?)
@HR: I don't have time to waste on you, we'll resume arguing Day 2 if I make it there.
We could go back in time and undo nearly all your posts and absolutely nothing would change, the exact same events would happen at the exact same time. The exception is #25, and only because it was the start of a chain reaction.
The same cannot be said of Grape and HR's posts. Regarding HR in particular, I have no idea why you are implying I viewed him as not proactive, especially considering my scumread on him was an OMGUS reaction to his (both very proactive and very wrong) attacks on me.
By the way, I still remember HR and Grape's play even if I did not reread them. I don't have Alzheimer's yet.
If you are town then where am I wrong? Who is scum instead of you?
And did you really reread the game and come up with "ZDS setting up a chainyeet on GJ/[you]" as your best take?
Like I pointed out earlier, I make the least sense out of anyone as anyone else's buddy.
The only way you can fit me in a scum-pairing is to come up with a theory that, itself, is only justified by being the only way you can fit me in a scum-pairing.
If you are town, you should realise how wrong that is. If you are scum... keep going I guess.
My worldview is that Johnny and you were expecting toDay to be a breeze, with Grape and HR voting me, me voting HR and the two of you waiting for a chance to hammer.
Meanwhile, I did my best to reset my reads after Pokechu's misbonk. After I had been proven wrong once, I had all the reasons in the world not to go back on my one-man crusade as if nothing had happened.
As a result I changed my reads out of apparently nowhere, and now you and Johnny both have to fit me into pairings that make zero sense, round-peg-in-square-hole style. Credits to Highroller as well for not going after my throat as soon as the Day started.
I may be wrong. Maybe Grape is pulling the wool over my eyes, maybe I am too forgiving towards HR. Despite this uncertainty, I stand by the first paragraph of this post.
Now that's a hot take. If the scum team is Johnny and I, why would we try a "chainyeet" bussing gamble when we could gang up on literally anyone and win the game toDay?
In addition, why would I not maintain my town read on Johnny from yesterDay? Nobody would bat an eye at it, I would show some consistency and he and I would have no need to run the world's most pointless gamble.
You could maybe argue Johnny is bussing me for safety, since I am the top scum read by a margin. The other way around makes no sense.
Reason #1 is because my scumread on him ran its course. Early on he didn't seem as convinced by his own arguments as he was in Snow White, but as time went on he showed more and more conviction.
Reason #2 is because he's been so hostile to Grape and Johnny (and me), his only possible scumbuddy is you. I am not entirely discounting that option, but I find it less likely than you+Johnny
Best Town Performance (Individual) — Tomslogger in Prison Block II, he had a bad start but after this he was on top of his game (/barning Grape).
Best Mafia Performance (Individual) — Orangeandblack5 in Voldemort, for replacing into a suspected spot and quickly getting himself town read. His death after he messed up and got himself modkilled (which I don't hold against him, he wasn't trying to cheat) was the turning point that led to the mafia's defeat even though their victory seemed guaranteed at that point.
Best 3rd Party Performance (Individual)
Best Town Performance (Group) — Snow White, so many players were on the ball, it's amazing the scum lasted as long as they did.
Best Mafia Performance (Group)
Best Town Player —
ZeDorkSlipeur, every game I played in ended in a town victory, every other game ended in a mafia victory. This has to mean something!Ampharos (actual vote), she exemplifies great town play: she puts in a lot of effort, is extremely easy to town read and she's a joy to play with as well.Best Mafia Player
Best Overall Player — Rhand, he's great in any role and has no major flaw.
Best Newcomer
Most Entertaining Player — Lastwhisper, zoomiest zoomer that ever zoomed.
Most Improved Player
Mod Awards:
Best Design — Prison Block II, simple yet elegant and fun.
Best Flavor — Snow White, I prefer short and sweet flavour over walls of text I don't read, and I loved the macabre humour of the death scenes.
Best Role
Best Read
Game of the Year
I wish we still did "funniest false claim", so I could nominate Rhand's gambler claim in Prison Block II. :-p
Also, who is actually new among the newcomers? (As in, didn't play forum Mafia at all until this year?)
— Johnny the Gentleman tried to "observe" Rhand, which makes sense in many worlds (scum GJ watching over scum RH for safety, scum GJ observing town RH for info, town GJ watching over ??? RH in case he's NKed);
— Grape tried to "manipulate" me, which makes the most sense from the perspective of a townie scumreading me: I would expect scum Grape to manipulate a better townie than me, such as Whispy ;
— Highroller tried to "decide" me, which again makes the most sense from the perspective of a townie scumreading me for the same reasons as with Grape ;
— Rhand tried to "command" Grape, which makes the most sense from the perspective of a scum trying to mess with a strong townie, and I have a hard time swallowing the "middle of [his] reads" justification.
So claimed action are +town for Grape and HR, NAI for Johnny and +scum for Rhand.
As for my own claim of "doormanning" the NK victim, there really isn't a way to talk about it that doesn't taste like wine. Nevertheless, for the record, if I were scum I would not have targeted the NK victim in the first place.
———
So according to you scum-I came out of the gates voting one of my possible buddies who immediately OMGUSed me until you interfered, and afterwards scum-me and my other possible buddy spent most of the Day tearing each other to pieces.
Meanwhile, you say Grape/ZDS isn't a viable pairing because Grape (who never put as much effort into flooping me as HR did) was quick in joining my wagon. That to you is more significant than any of the above.
Rereading your play as a whole, without getting swayed by details that seem significant but are actually not (such as whether I agree with your arguments).
... and about that, I happen to be the least likely scum out of us five.
Thanks to my awful play, all four of you are looking at me with bloodthirsty eyes. Since we are at flush-or-fail it is hard to imagine scum would choose to bus rather than pluck the fruit hanging so low it has become a potato.
Case in point, on this page alone:
Not convinced? Fine, let's go in depth.
Highroller and I have spent most of yesterDay trying to kill each other while everyone else (except Grape) watched without taking a side. The chances of us acting in cahoots are extremely low.
Grape, in addition to being openly hostile to me, used his "Manipulator" ability on me. There is no point to that if we were buddies, and the message he ended up having to write proves he is not lying about his target. Aside from HR's conspiracy theories from yesterDay, we are essentially confirmed not-together.
With Johnny and Rhand it is more complex, neither of them is as explicit about scumreading me as HR and Grape are.
Thankfully I think they are scum (by POE), which allows me to make this proposal:
@Highroller, @Grape: Pick one of Johnny or Rhand for me to vote, and I will vote him.
This way there will be no reason to believe I may decide to vote one while being partnered with the other.
@Johnny, @Rhand: Chances are Highroller is going to disagree with my proposal on grounds of still believing Grape and I are scumbuddies. Help him by contradicting yourselves and telling him he's right.
Mockery aside, do something. Rhand is twiddling his thumbs waiting for I don't know what, and Johnny is so serious about his pairings he apparently believes HR and me could be a team.
Whether you guys (the two among you four who are town) listen to the evidence in spite of who is presenting it (and how, ZDS sure is an arrogant prick), or whether you keep going and we gloriously crash and burn, is entirely up to you. I allow you to hate my guts, the facts won't change: I am proven town by virtue of playing so badly everyone, both town and scum, wants to kick me out.
———
Thank you for clarifying this, it makes a lot more sense now.
I am townreading Grape for it is because of how well this fits with my own post-reread worldview, especially Johnny+Rhand as the most likely team.
If Grape was scum he would have used this message to pocket me (which would be strange on its own), and to pocket me he would have tried to reflect my own reads from EoD1 (notably Johnny town, Whispy scum).
The only two things that give me a little pause, though I am not sure they are significant, are:
@Grape:
1) Why pick me for your legacy? Scum-ZDS was probably the only one who could have prioritised killing you (I think), so if you were scumreading me it would have made more sense to pick someone else.
2) Did you hope to mess with me in addition to sending the message? Because I am not sure how the message itself was supposed to mess with me.
Upgrades: The only two players who did not receive an upgrade are me and Grape, so unless I'm wrong on Grape I'm positive the entire scum-team got one.
I figured they might be the secondary result of some abilities (eg depending on your pick you get nothing/an upgrade/your actual ability) but it might be more complex than that.
I was also curious why my top scumteam had both received an upgrade, but since HR confirmed he also did that's become moot.
HR's pick of target: There is absolutely nothing surprising about him targeting me and hoping for a "decisive" effect. Makes him +town if he really did.
Set-up spec?: I threw scissors and both Grape and HR threw paper. However, only Grape's ability seemed to have an effect. So it's probable who "wins" RPS is irrelevant, or is only relevant in an unpredictable way.
Regarding the possibility of neutrals, I'm analysing the game like it doesn't exist. I'm only considering it in the first place because of Johnny's "town siding" comment.
Re: the message: It makes me believe Grape is town (more than I already did), is it more clear that way?
My claim was true at the time I made it: I had not yet received the message.
I received the message between my previous two posts, and did not see it until after posting my last post.
Please address any complaints to Osie.
I will reveal the message's contents if Grape asks. All I can say for now is it was a townie message.
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@Rhand, @Johnny Why do you separate your "upgrade" from your Night results?
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"Town siding" in a Mafia context means "to side with the town". It's something 3rd parties can do (I made the "scumchat" accusation in the spur of the moment, in part because of the shifting pronouns, I was wrong).
Looking up "town siding mafia" in various search engines returns results that conform to my definition.
I ask you with no sarcasm: are you a neutral or 3rd party?
@Not-Johnny Don't sleep on this. If anyone is more familiar with Johnny's definition of "town siding" than with mine please let me know.
You did not address the elephant in the room, so please do. What's that about "town siding"?
I do want to ask about this:
The pronouns are all weird. Why his "ZDS" in the third person? Who is "you", if not me? What's that about town siding?
I'm confused, did you mean to post this in scumchat???
I. First of all, I would like to apologise for yesterDay's fiasco. As the main pusher behind Poke's bop (while Rhand and Johnny were... there, and Whispy was openly against it), I feel responsible for it and toDay I want to make up for my mistakes.
II. I spent the entire Day 1 only looking at details and individual posts without considering the whole. Not only did I miss the forest for the trees, I also missed the tree for the bark. To compensate, I looked up everyone's ISOs as a whole, to get a holistic view of each player.
These are my observations:
Johnny: He is mostly notable for defending Rhand and me vs each other and sort of defending Grape (vs Highroller). He has been scumreading Grape since essentially the beginning, but has been very passive about pushing that read — be it to figure Grape out or to get him bopped. I have a hard time understanding why he (sort of) defended Grape, his (only?) scum-read, against HR.
Highroller, Grape: I ended up skipping them both. The point of holistic analysis is to not get stuck on details, and I could not get past the tiny detail that they both spent so much time and energy pushing a wrong bop on me. I still have my details-level read on them from yesterDay (Grape OK, HR meh).
Rhand: He spent most of the Day seemingly without a scum-read, beyond his OMGUS on me that he didn't push very much. He did ask questions and regularly share his thoughts, so I can't say he hasn't been scumhunting, with the caveat that I don't quite get how his Poke vote followed from the questions he asked (if it did).
Whispy: He's dead so no need to go into details (I will if asked), to summarise he seemed actively looking for answers and his thought progressions were (for the most part) clear.
III. Based on the above, I have a few questions:
@Johnny:
1) Can you summarise your entire Grape read? How it started, how it evolved, what is its current status.
2) If you are scumreading Grape because of #31, then what about #55 where you said to Rhand "I think you are putting way too much stock into the first page of posts that people make"?
3) Why did you argue with Highroller about whether me flipping scum would make Grape scum or town, and why did you take the "it would make Grape town" side?
4) Not a question, just an FYI about HR latest posts: he is saying that either no scum voted Poke which only leaves Grape and him as possible scum, or at least one scum did which means at least one of [you, Rhand, me] is scum. It's extremely basic wagon analysis, but still worth mentioning.
@Rhand:
Before voting Poke you were questioning him, but then when you voted the reason given had nothing to do with those questions.
Did your questions influence your decision to vote him? What would you have done if he had not posted the post that proverbially broke the camel's back?
Regarding what I figured my role could do, I had absolutely no clue and hoped to "open the door to a more positive future". I picked Scissors because they evoke the opening of a door.
IV. In conclusion, I don't want to die (entirely because I don't want to be responsible for the town's loss), I hope I can make amends for my bad play, and I have Johnny at the top of my scum-list by a thin margin.
I am the Doorman, I Scissored Whispy (hoping to do something helpful for him, he was my top town after re-reading) and I received no Night result.
That's it for now, I'll post more in ~13 hours.
Therefore I have to assume you are not acting in good faith when you say "[I'm] just trying to label something as scummy", "[I] want it to be scum so clearly it must be" or that I'm not "put[ting] thought into [my] reads and consider[ing] if they make sense".
Granted, the top part of my previous post was unusually sarcastic and lacking in details. Please forgive me Mr Time Lord, and please tell us how you were able to use posts 185, 193 and 199 to justify the reads you posted in 151.
The only way this is possible is if you looked into Whispy and Rhand's ISOs not with the intent to determine their alignments, but instead with the intent to find posts you could put on display to illustrate your reads after the fact.
Show us how your actions make sense from the perspective of a townie acting in good faith and legitimately trying to solve the game.
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(Side note, why is there nobody around? Is everyone asleep?)
Just kidding, he is blatantly making-up his reads after the fact. Kill him with fire.
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That's the textbook definition of a strawman, countering an argument that was never actually made.
What I actually did was 1. find suspicious how the catch-up had basically nothing to say to or about Whispy, and 2. call out Whispy for not interacting with you until after I posted 1.
None of your quotes, including the one you called lazy solving, have any relevance in that regard.
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@Whispy: Bruh, I literally town-cased Johnny (same person as GJ) in 205. I'm adding a caveat though that if anyone is trying to pocket me by roughly mimicking my reads, it's him.
Also: It bothered you that I have "sussed" most players at some point, but now you are saying Johnny is scum for refusing to yeet too many players. Isn't that contradictory?
Which is scummy, too many scum reads or not enough?
(Or does it bother you that he's planning on staying out of the DorkRoller dichotomy
@HR: I don't have time to waste on you, we'll resume arguing Day 2 if I make it there.