No need to worry ladies and vagoos, for I am here!
• Vote: Highroller (E-1) : Mainly because of the reaction to Goo's claim ("I trust the uncounterclaimed cop with a guilty result on me!"), also because I was scumreading him yesterDay and I want some vindication after the fiasco my other reads were.
Fun fact: Despite posting several times already, Highroller's only content toDay has been his claim. No reads, no opinions, just "kill me now". I kind of expect him to self-hammer to shorten the Day (little does he know I agree with Sloth we shouldn't let things drag on).
• I was expecting to get vigged last Night so I didn't do a full reread. I did reread the beginning of the game before Rhand started posting content, because I still believe scum-Rhand is capable of faking reads and content — which means he did not want to create content.
My conclusion is there is most likely little to no notable scum involvement pre-#271 (not to say they didn't post, but what they did post did not make an impact) and Rhand did not want to get in the way of our infighting and time wasting.
Also I agree with KJ(iirc) that Jack and Goo are spewed clear (independently of any cop claim).
If we end up no-condemning which looks to be where we are heading, future flips will make this situation very telling. There's obviously town ego at play (refusing to vote someone you think will flip town), but it's also clear there's no(t enough) scum-driven inertia to push a misflush.
I don't know yet what it means (maybe scum are offline, maybe they are happy with the situation, maybe somehow the scumteam is Rhand/Eco/Jack ).
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
The swipe was at me offering mitigation for TerRain's scummy behaviour, it wasn't a scum read on me at all. He's implicitly defending me by attacking my attacke and making similar scum reads as me. He hasn't outright said he thinks I'm town, but he certainly doesn't want me dead.
That TerRaine didn't go for the kill but instead kind of drifted off to other things looks more towny than not. Not enough to push her into the green for me, but enough that I'm thinking I might be conf biasing and I want to see more data.
We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool.
I should have checked this when you made your readslist, when it was more relevant.
You said: "I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me."
First, "We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool" hardly counts as dumping on anyone who isn't Ter.
Second, HR's goal regardless of alignment was ostensibly to counter a pro-Ter argument and reiterate his own anti-Ter argument. How does one court your cooperation while keeping these goals in mind, in a context where you were wavering on Ter? (Preferably in a way that's in-character for HR).
All I'm getting from this is a better understanding of HR's townread on you (simplistic ennemy-of-my-ennemy stuff), which makes me doubt my Ecoroller woofwoof theory. The point still stand that whatever it is HR was doing he was not defending you, implicitely or otherwise, in that particular post. Unless I pulled the wrong quote, which I did not, it is an atrocious twist of logic to claim otherwise.
I know you're having a lot of trouble with me here and you're going to be angry at me post-game. But for someone who is so aware of the evils of confirmation bias you could really do taking a step back - instead of deciding that it is inconceivable that I am town and just constructing a scum read based on that assumption.
Keep that to yourself, it's condescending. After how much I've flip-flopped about you, including unvoting you at the peak of your wagon's momentum, do you seriously believe I am constructing a scum read on you based on the assumption you cannot conceivably be town? No, I keep doubting and you keep triggering my scumdar. And when have I ever been angry post-game at townies I mis-scumread? I know it's been a while but hello, do you remember anything about me?
On Rhand I find his level of play this game frusateing they is little real scum hunting. They is a lot of complaints and being over defensive though. He starts off with a early defend of Eco,to Ter which is one of the more consistent parts of his play. After that he mainly complains about nothing happening and wants others to do his work for him.
Wants others to do my work for me? Where did you get that idea from?
Maybe from "ZDS save us" or "someone please vote me" (not exact quotes obv.)
I still feel like he’s very open in explaining his thought processes, which is very hard to do as mafia.
Speak for yourself, I'm so open about my thought processes as mafia I'm practically gaping. (Ok maybe not, but point is it's not hard for everyone and is more of a playstyle tell)
@Eco: TBH I was hoping for a pat on the back having caught Jack. The read on Rhand appeared from nowhere, and like I said, Rhand might be scum, but Jack def is for the gymnastics needed to justify that vote on Rhand. I'd rather got for the sure thing.
I remember Jack in Prison Block, and his posting had very clear, if rambly thinking behind it.
But talk to me about 625. You (should be) currently scumreading Jack, and you think Rhand is scum. Wouldn't flipping onto Rhand when Rhand wasn't very high in his PoE be exactly what scum!Jack would do?
@ZDS: It could be both bussing and opportunistic though. Jack would have been tracking buddy!Rhand's transgressions and when the tide was impossibly out of favor he cobbles them together in a scumread and votes.
Also AFAICT he was very lightly scumreading him up until 569. I outlined his whole progression in 592, do you disagree with that?
Were you townreading Jack prior to this? Refresh my memory.
@Vaimes: How significantly would my interrogation change him though? I would expect a similar naturalness to come from him even during that. A casualness perhaps?
@Rhand: Now that youy're caught up: reads list?
Matter is a much better example of Jack's town meta. In Prison Block, past Day 1, he was basically regurgitating the opinions I was feeding him in cell (neighbour) chat.
I mostly don't mind his progression on Rhand, and AFAICT you seem to have an issue with the fact he's had a progression at all. A read does not necessarily progress from weak to strong, it can fluctuate and shift, and the fluctuations in Jack's Rhand read appear fairly organic especially considering town-Jack is easily influenced (see above re: Prison Block meta). The only issue I do have with his progression is how it vaguely parallels the overall town's progression, which may not be AI for him (see previously).
And yes I have a light town read on him. He's doing his thing, analysing the game at his own pace, listening to the opinions of others. It's hard to commit to a strong town read without flips but what he's shown so far as been completely fine in my view.
Actually I'm not sure that was his intent but Eco put down a very good argument why Jack is most likely town (in 674, for future rereading reference).
ZDS is arguing that I’ve been priming myself to bus both of my buddies just to get one villager killed? So what, I can endgame? That is a terrible take. Not to mention that using Daylight to work on my weakest scumread is something I find more productive than sitting on Highroller or Ecophagy.
As for Rhand’s claim, it doesn’t really do anything from me.
I only bus buddies when I struggle for content or when I think they look bad. I distanced from ZDS in PBII because he was very inactive Day 1, and then I flipped it to a townread once he dug his roots into the game.
TerRaine I don’t remember, I think I either gave her a bland townread or kept her at null.
ZDS’ hypothetical Lagoon/Ecophagy/Highroller team is bad because I don’t want to endgame, Ecophagy isn’t lurking or playing badly or under a ton of pressure, Highroller has been getting meta passes, and the only way I would believe ZDS believes it’s a viable team is if he just came out of a coma with total amnesia. A scumteam made of the three of us would sweep.
Calm your vagoo, that link falls appart if at least one of Eco or HR is town, and even if they are both woofs it does not justify executing you. Don't get all frantic like you are already seeing the grim reaper.
... unless you really are seeing the grim reaper, I guess.
Also: "Eco isn't [...] under a ton of pressure"
(Well, I guess Rhand is still more likely to die as of right now, but hopefully that will change before deadline)
———
Side note, if Eco flips scum I will be 4 out of 5 at making my first serious vote in a game on scum (since my return from hiatus and obviously not counting my one scum game).
Other general, scattered thoughts [mostly from this page]--
Maintaining my TerRaine townread. Based off memory alone, she's one of the few trying to squeeze content out of this gif-infested thread.
Highroller/Ecophagy/Rhand team? A little less sure on Rhand, because no one has really been attacked for the naked vote there.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
I think Jackrito is town. His early rambly wall feels genuine, and he's already sticking his neck out more than he did in his last scumgame. That Ecophagy was calling people out for liking Jackrito makes me even more sure he's town. Small nitpick, but I could see a world where scum!Jackrito is buddying me due to my claim, but other slots' reactions to Jackrito makes me doubt that world.
I don't think I have any stronger opinions elsewhere. I'd like to see more serious reads/votes/content from Slothful and Grapefruit. Axelrod gets a minor pass from me because I never know how to townread his Day 1 play.
I neither like nor believe Highroller's vote on TerRaine. Lots of charged and overly-dramatic language, which makes me doubt that Highroller doesn't know Ecophagy's alignment.
This appears to be it.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
Is he scum because you're townreading Ter and he's voting him? And I wouldn't be surprised if the overly dramatic language is just how he talks. He's made one post that fits that description so far.
You think he's chainsawing Eco?
A little of A, a little of B.
I think he's scum because his view of her play feels incredibly warped, and I don't like how uber-protective of Ecophagy he is. It does not look like it's coming from an early Day 1 villager.
Even though I have stronger scumreads on him and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment. I don't really buy the "boo hoo I don't know what to do" song and dance from him. He can do literally anything to throw people in a tizzy and get content going. Right now he can comment on Jackrito's wall, Highroller's vote and defense + TerRaine's response, ZDS' general mannerisms, my claim and reads, and so on.
"Even though I have stronger scumreads on [HR] and Ecophagy, I'd like to tease out Rhand's alignment" is kind of terrible on its own, and if I'm right on Eco&HR being woofwoof and Rhand being town then this is definitely a woofwoofwoof post: distancing from both buddies while working to get town kicked out.
———
Jack, if you are town, you need to work on how insanely easily articulate (scum) players can pocket you. First Prison Block 2, now this.
Highroller - He hasn't done anything outside his normal play so far, and his content has been light (but not scummy light yet). I think I'm going for a light town read for #348 where he took a strawman swipe at me, who would be one of the players most likely to vote TerRaine with him. I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me. More content obviously desired though.
3) It's more because Highroller is going after TerRaine (who is my spicy scum pick) and implicitly defends me by contrast. And yes, he's validating my ego by scum-reading Jack. Do I actually think Highroller is town? Not really. But he's doing things that pocket me. I agree that switching to Jack immediately after KJ does looks suspicious.
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
2) Highroller would have been scum had he tried to pocket Eco. Highroller doing things that happen to pocket Eco makes Eco trust him more.
3) If anyone can find where in the first quote he townreads HR for his scumread on Ter, let me know.
3) You've been townreadingHighroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
That non-progression worded as progression is
HR continuing to do things that I previously wanted to town read him on makes me want to townread him more. I don't see what's wrong with that.
Yeah, no.
———
(If anyone can make sense of how fast Eco started tunnelling Jack I'm also interested.)
Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense.
Does that include the bit about his naked vote on Jackrito with no follow-up being a serious vote meant to ellicit a reaction in Jack?
More generally speaking, I personally find it hard to follow Eco's thought processes without having to repeatedly question him, and his explanations are clear (enough) but typically safe and NAI.
Axel's ISO: Inconclusive. He mostly keeps his thoughts to himself except when dumping an overanalysis or that time he went "oh yeah me too I have the same reads". GTMH he's town, more because that's the statistically safer bet than because he's done anything particularly AI.
Highroller's ISO: Not enough material to notice any big picture yet, and he could be having trouble getting started after the intensity of Realm of the Elderlings. As for what is there, he comments on a lot of stuff but mostly stays superficial. I would say he's scum but that's mostly because of bias, if I try to stay objective he's somewhere between null and meh. GTMH, shoot me.
(On the other hand if I'm right on Eco being scum, HR is strongly +scum because of Eco's spew)
Well not played in a couple of months, and I was well off my game when I was playing back then. So hoping this attempt goes a lot better. Not sure when I ever scum slipped though, Since being only town here when playing and replaced out when scum both times for differing reasons.
2 & 4)
3) You've been townreadingHighroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
• Rhand's claim is believable. The role itself is probably more likely to be on town than on scum, but depending on the rest of the set-up either could work. So I don't expect it to change many people's opinions.
• All who give Eco a pass because he is rational and his thought processes are easy to follow need to stop doing that and drop him to at most null. These are player-quality tells, they say nothing about a player's alignment and only tell you they are competent.
To put it another way, do you expect Eco to be either rational and collected as town, or a flailing imbecile as scum? Give me a break.
I don't claim to be right beyond any doubt about Eco, but at least try to read him past the NAI stuff.
• Highroller takes lots of strong stances but he barely justifies them (or he handwaves them as "feels") and he does not do much more than state them and move on (if given the chance). In other words, reads instead of content.
The fact he had to be told to "come at [Ter]" is extremely atypical for him, a more usual reaction is "leave me alooooone". Here the paragraph on Ter is basically tacked on at the end of #570 so we don't forget he is/was scumreading her.
The switch to Jackrito is... eh. The rationale behind it is fine on the surface, however AFAICT HR is/was scumleaning on Rhand and it doesn't make a lot of sense to scumread Jack in this situation unless expecting Rhand to flip town. The timing of it is suspicious as well, right after KJ interrogated Jack.
• The nonsensicalness of scumreading Jack for (essentially) wagonning against Rhand while also scumreading Rhand also applies to Killjoy — especially since the argument is not that Jack could be bussing, but that he is being opportunistic.
• All in all I tend to agree with Jack's #564, the rising momentum against him has all the signs of prepping the scapegoat for the ritual sacrifice. I still need to figure out if that momentum is being created by scum or by useful idiots.
Tbf what Eco is doing to me is what I'm doing this game to Igno and normally do in general. It's hard for myself personally to convince people so will just keep bringing my issue up to try and get traction. So I expect others also have this issue. It's hard to push the execute on me when most here appear to not scum read me. So don't fault their approuch.
I'll need to check but IIRC you don't spend more time asking others about their opinions on Igno than actually interacting with Igno themself.
ZDS, you were so close to getting there. I respect the Jackrito read is one of those early game reads that's stronger than it probably should be, and sure I haven't been combing through his posts but it's not like anyone else is interested in voting him (even the people who had him down as scum??) and I've been pretty preoccupied trying to get a handle on the game at large and trying to stop you all killing me. It's easier to poke reads and investigate when you're not fighting for your life.
[...]
Yes, I know I'm reconsidering my read only after you said that you don't like it and I haven't done anything with it. I can argue that Jack's most recent content has been the most convincing (basically the part where he's actively defending me), but realistically you'll just have to suffer the headache.
1) Could you reiterate where does that read came from initially? You had a clearly biased, already-stuck-in-the-tunnel interpretation of his first content post, and I can't see anything bad with his previous (RVS) posts.
2) His recent posts have been decent, I would be more offended if you doubled down. I'm surprised with the complete reversal, but it's hard to interpret it right now.
I definitely remember Rhand, but a quick skim looks like that was it. But, uh, now Jack's got two votes from HR and KJ. So I might have to put some money where my mouth is.
3) Why? Is it because he is scumreading Jack, who you used to scumread, then townread, then [???]?
4) Where is your mouth anyway?
(BTW, it's confusing but Jack's TSlist in 563 is a repeat of Grape's list in #450, similar to that time Rhand copied Jack's list.)
I ISO'd Rhand and Eco and I plan on doing Axel and HR later.
A note on methodology: I intentionally look only at the big picture when I do these, because the quality of individual posts is not necessarily AI and scum have to follow an overall agenda regardless of how well (or poorly) they are playing. In particular, if "the big picture" gives a different impression than reading the posts as they come does, I consider this a sign of a possible agenda.
Rhand's ISO: His content is very underwhelming, even after he stopped complaining about his own cluelessness. He is consistent in that regard, and I did not see any sign he was only pretending. If he's conning us, he's going for the long con.
Gun to my head, Rhand is town.
Eco's ISO: He has lots of content, most of which is explaining himself ( ) and giving his opinion on (then-)current matters. He is part of a small group of players who had no trouble getting strong-ish scum-reads from early-on: he has been tunnelling Jackrito since RVS (over posts I can't see as possibly AI). Most of Eco's push on Jack has been centered on Jack's first content post, but Eco was already voting and scum(ish)-reading him.
Saying Eco pushed Jack is a bit of an exaggeration though, he doesn't go much farther than making sure we know he's scum-reading him. It could be his playstyle but... since when is it anyone's playstyle to vaguely stare at someone you are hardcore tunnelling and not really do anything to them. Until I ISOd him I had no idea he had disliked Jack this much and for so long. All in all it feels like a placeholder scumread, the type you make up so you don't get into trouble for not doing enough scumhunting.
Gun to my head, Eco is scum.
Vote: Ecophagy
My vote is staying there unless I am given an excellent reason to move it.
@VaGoo You said earlier that you thought Jack is town, but also that Eco pushing him made Jack more town. Do you find yourself often using scumreads on people who's alignment you don't know to color your townreads? How often are either of those reads correct?
You are asking about his playstyle in general, how is this going to help you read him during this game in particular?
My brain is not working at full capacity so I'm going to keep things relatively short.
Unvote
The timing of Axel's case and vote was probably more coincidental than I initially knee-jerkingly thought. The analysis still reads like it was written with the intent to justify the vote at the end, but , that's subjective.
@goo: I'm for running up someone in the Eco/Axel/Rhand/HR group and will (re)vote accordingly.
@Ter: Why are you so secretive about whatever Axel did that's so bad? Are you learning anything from the answers you get?
@Highroller: Why do you take goo's claim at face value? He could be memeing.
For the same reason, why do you expect the real cop (if applicable) to counterclaim?
Re #490: you have lots of strong opinions, please back them up.
Are you still scumreading Ter? Apparently she didn't say much that caught your eye.
@Axel: Why do you focus on analysing small events? What do you expect to learn from the gooRhand argument?
(What is "anti-meta"? )
@Igno: Even if you don't have reads or if they don't stay long, try to leave some kind of trail. For example if someone makes a good / bad argument say it, if you agree / disagree with someone say it, if a post let an impression of any kind on you say it, etc.
By the way, Ter is a darn good woof and so are many players here (including myself). If you are town (which I currently think) I advise against sheeping anyone in this game. If you think you only need to be paranoid of Rhand you will be sorry before long.
• Eco's reads being so ego-filtered, despite the attempt not to OMGUS, is a point in his favour IMO. See for example how he assumes his scumread on Jack has a strong effect on others' read on Jack.
Chances are he is genuinely distraught by the repeated attacks on him since barely-post-RVS. He is making reads that make sense for (town-)him in context, rather than reads that make sense in general (which, if he's scum, would be the more obvious path). The fact he never appeals to emotions and never goes full on "woe is me, I am the top scumread" is also a positive.
None of that is strongly town-telling, but it's still +town.
• Looking back at Rhand's reads, the only thing justifying his scumlean on Axel is "Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying". On the other hand he dedicates an entire paragraph to Goo. So his scumlean on Axel is not merely weaker than the one on Goo, it's so much weaker it doesn't make sense to have them on the same level and to let such a fuss happen about it. (I stand by my previous observation that it would be more coherent for scum-Rhand to avoid this situation, but this still needs clarifying.)
Also I still question his town-read on Eco. "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense" is obviously a controversial opinion.
• Jack is an extremely non-confrontational player, for the record. He is currently firmly within his NAI meta.
How strong do you think it is, ZDS? Or maybe I should be asking, how strong do you think that I think it is?
Considering you cased him by interpreting every micro-step of a single interaction as (possibly) scummy, and considering your own interaction with Grape afterwards, I would say you have the most conviction out of anyone voting (or previously voting) Eco.
While we are on the subject, looking up #275 and earlier posts made me see you had already noted the Ignophagy interaction. Why did you wait so long before analysing it? It's not as if your conclusions would have changed much.
Or, well, I can't account for how strongly you believe in your own reads since you just admitted it was bravado. My only flaw here is originally taking you at your word.
My read on you is stronger than the one on Axel yes. But neither has the strength of “gotcha”.
I feel like we’re still going to be talking about this in lylo lol.
When is the last time you've been alive in LyLo as town?
My reason for changing my mind on Axel was because of a read someone else made - apparently if Axel starts to give out some good analysis about mid-D1 he's much more likely to be town. I'm still not so sure on this read someone else made, because he seems to be pretty experienced so this may ops till be in his woof-range, but I'm willing to sheep the read someone made on him.
As for Eco, I'm gonna be really hypocritical but the assumptions he's made wrt to me are worse than mine by quite a margin. Those kid gloves are kinda because of how he went along with that string of posts he made, similar to how many woofs would go "okayI asked about this now my work here is done."
I made the mid-D1 line. And it's not "he's much more likely to be town" so much as "that's his playstyle".
Anyway, do you intent to spend the entire Day sheeping? How do you decide who to sheep?
Your reaction makes the most sense as scum that knows the grape thing is BS having TMI-bias and seeing my reaction as something that can be pushed as TMI for a musky choice.
How would scum-KJ know the Grape thing was BS ?
(Also "musky choice" is terrible, even worse than Grape's "VaGoo".)
• Axel being so pushy about Eco is uncharacteristic for him, especially on Day 1. His case, while good, is not that strong, and Grape's interpretation of the Ecognorimus interaction is logically valid (as in "it may be correct", not as in "it is correct for sure").
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
I don't really understand why you're so insistent on forcing a read on me right now other than because it bothers you.
Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were , but none that were scummy for sure, so I can neither ignore you nor crusade against you.
This is the chain of events I was referring to. The consistent through line is pretty clear to me. Eco initially soft clears him while asking leading questions to generate content for others to analyze, then the situation changes and his initial questions aren't that relevant because it turned out Igno wasn't in fact a new player and those questions were specific to the assumption that he was new town.
My issue with this is how quickly it happened, Eco switched right away from figuring out Igno to guiding the newb town even though their response wasn't that telling. Which, to be fair, could be sloppy town play (making assumptions and jumping to conclusions).
The Partnered Community thing is piquing my interest. As I understand it it's basically the same thing as a subreddit: a self-contained community with the same tools as the rest of the site.
The lack of advertisement is obviously an issue, but an unadvertised MUPC is still more likely to attract new players than an obscure subforum in a necrosing M:tG forum.
It's flabbergasting. However, it's also unlikely Eco is lying when it would be so much easier to say it was a joke at the time and shifted into a serious vote.
One way Eco could be lying is if he wants to paint himself as a rational townie who does everything for a reason. This is a great way to be townread by exploiting human bias. It also fits with goo's analysis of him as very careful.
The issue with this argument is it cannot be proven or disproven, and is born from the sum of my own bias against Eco and the flabbergastingness of the situation. I can only make sense of things by being paranoid and it's frustrating.
• Possible bussing aside, goo is even more confirmed town if Eco is scum, for bringing up the entire issue above.
I don't mind the line about not knowing how to townread Day 1 Axel, I interpret it as "I don't like him but that's always the case Day 1". I have the same issue so I can relate.
I agree with Rhand, Axel and goo are unlikely to be woof-woof.
• Jack being "consensusy" is usual for him and is NAI. Not that I find his reads/leans particularly consensusy, other than the reasons given for them.
• Highroller having a warped view of others' play is completely par with the course for him. It's at most NAI.
• I am a treasure hunter looking for a type of gold named "Clarity". I ask questions to lay my doubts in the open and get the questionee to reveal their mindset. I do not expect anyone to slip up, nor do I expect to be wowed, and I (try to) drop points once they've been clarified enough.
I am intentionally getting away from the "prodding until something is revealed" method, it keeps failing me. I keep prodding Eco because I keep not getting him.
• Ter's wall is superficial at times but not to the extent of being Reads Instead of Content. By itself it's NAI, the fact she did it at all is a little +town.
I probably am. My last game was about 2 years ago, and my last town game was in 2018 and that was a Micro.
Quote from ZDS »
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
I'm not going to argue againsst every bad vote on principle because that sounds like mafia purgatory. I get that you're looking for an inconsistent mindset, but I was just trying to help the new guy out.
I asked about the rustiness because I can't see myself giving advice while rusty — but I did post a lot about how to play or against bad-on-principle arguments in my one post-hiatus scum game.
Granted, everyone's different and you seemed to have a much softer hiatus than mine, where you still hung around and spectated games. So... it's just another thing that bugs me but doesn't prove anything.
I'm interested why you think I'm capable of BS reads. I can for sure but not sure you have ever seen me do it, to feel so confident that I have ablity to and what makes you feel I'm not here.
You were caught in Snow White for making up reads while blatantly not reading the thread.
But yes, in the vacuum world where you don't know Rhand's alignment and he could be town. Are you not taking things like that into consideration when trying to solve him?
Why are you phrasing this like Sloth knows Rhand's alignment?
I sit in my helicopter while they both drown in the null swamp, both slowly rising to the surface where the town leans are, but not there yet. Goo rises faster than Ter, whose foot got momentarily stuck in some plants early on.
———
I can finally pinpoint what bothers me so much with Ecophagy. It's the fact I used (pre-hiatus) to play exactly like this as scum. I was more forward than he is because I like to take the lead, but it would have been the only obvious difference. I can literally see my old scum self in his posts, and the positive comments Eco is getting from some players are the same comments I used to get all the time.
• Vote: Highroller (E-1) : Mainly because of the
Fun fact: Despite posting several times already, Highroller's only content toDay has been his claim. No reads, no opinions, just "kill me now". I kind of expect him to self-hammer to shorten the Day (little does he know I agree with Sloth we shouldn't let things drag on).
• I was expecting to get vigged last Night so I didn't do a full reread. I did reread the beginning of the game before Rhand started posting content, because I still believe scum-Rhand is capable of faking reads and content — which means he did not want to create content.
My conclusion is there is most likely little to no notable scum involvement pre-#271 (not to say they didn't post, but what they did post did not make an impact) and Rhand did not want to get in the way of our infighting and time wasting.
Also I agree with KJ(iirc) that Jack and Goo are spewed clear (independently of any cop claim).
Ecophagy (3): Axelrod, ZeDorkSlipeur, TerRaine
Jackrito (2): Highroller, Rhand
Not Voting (2): ignoramus, Jackrito, Killjoy
If we end up no-condemning which looks to be where we are heading, future flips will make this situation very telling. There's obviously town ego at play (refusing to vote someone you think will flip town), but it's also clear there's no(t enough) scum-driven inertia to push a misflush.
I don't know yet what it means (maybe scum are offline, maybe they are happy with the situation, maybe somehow the scumteam is Rhand/Eco/Jack
You said: "I think mafia-Highroller would be more interested in courting my cooperation (say, with leading questions about what I thought about TerRaine) rather than just dump on me."
First, "We're arguing that hedging doesn't exist and/or is definitely town? K, cool" hardly counts as dumping on anyone who isn't Ter.
Second, HR's goal regardless of alignment was ostensibly to counter a pro-Ter argument and reiterate his own anti-Ter argument. How does one court your cooperation while keeping these goals in mind, in a context where you were wavering on Ter? (Preferably in a way that's in-character for HR).
All I'm getting from this is a better understanding of HR's townread on you (simplistic ennemy-of-my-ennemy stuff), which makes me doubt my Ecoroller woofwoof theory. The point still stand that whatever it is HR was doing he was not defending you, implicitely or otherwise, in that particular post. Unless I pulled the wrong quote, which I did not, it is an atrocious twist of logic to claim otherwise.
Overall 655 doesn't move the needle for me.Keep that to yourself, it's condescending. After how much I've flip-flopped about you, including unvoting you at the peak of your wagon's momentum, do you seriously believe I am constructing a scum read on you based on the assumption you cannot conceivably be town? No, I keep doubting and you keep triggering my scumdar.
And when have I ever been angry post-game at townies I mis-scumread? I know it's been a while but hello, do you remember anything about me?
Maybe from "ZDS save us" or "someone please vote me" (not exact quotes obv.)Speak for yourself, I'm so open about my thought processes as mafia I'm practically gaping. (Ok maybe not, but point is it's not hard for everyone and is more of a playstyle tell)
Matter is a much better example of Jack's town meta. In Prison Block, past Day 1, he was basically regurgitating the opinions I was feeding him in cell (neighbour) chat.
I mostly don't mind his progression on Rhand, and AFAICT you seem to have an issue with the fact he's had a progression at all. A read does not necessarily progress from weak to strong, it can fluctuate and shift, and the fluctuations in Jack's Rhand read appear fairly organic especially considering town-Jack is easily influenced (see above re: Prison Block meta). The only issue I do have with his progression is how it vaguely parallels the overall town's progression, which may not be AI for him (see previously).
And yes I have a light town read on him. He's doing his thing, analysing the game at his own pace, listening to the opinions of others. It's hard to commit to a strong town read without flips but what he's shown so far as been completely fine in my view.
Actually I'm not sure that was his intent but Eco put down a very good argument why Jack is most likely town (in 674, for future rereading reference).
Calm your vagoo, that link falls appart if at least one of Eco or HR is town, and even if they are both woofs it does not justify executing you. Don't get all frantic like you are already seeing the grim reaper.
... unless you really are seeing the grim reaper, I guess.
Also: "Eco isn't [...] under a ton of pressure"
(Well, I guess Rhand is still more likely to die as of right now, but hopefully that will change before deadline)
———
Side note, if Eco flips scum I will be 4 out of 5 at making my first serious vote in a game on scum (since my return from hiatus and obviously not counting my one scum game).
———
Jack, if you are town, you need to work on how insanely easily articulate (scum) players can pocket you. First Prison Block 2, now this.
Case in point:
1) Strawman-swiping at Eco and (not so) implicitly defending him are the same thing, right?
2) Highroller would have been scum had he tried to pocket Eco. Highroller doing things that happen to pocket Eco makes Eco trust him more.
3) If anyone can find where in the first quote he townreads HR for his scumread on Ter, let me know.
Yeah, no.
———
(If anyone can make sense of how fast Eco started tunnelling Jack I'm also interested.)
@Rhand: More generally speaking, I personally find it hard to follow Eco's thought processes without having to repeatedly question him, and his explanations are clear (enough) but typically safe and NAI.
———
Axel's ISO: Inconclusive. He mostly keeps his thoughts to himself except when dumping an overanalysis or that time he went "oh yeah me too I have the same reads". GTMH he's town, more because that's the statistically safer bet than because he's done anything particularly AI.
Highroller's ISO: Not enough material to notice any big picture yet, and he could be having trouble getting started after the intensity of Realm of the Elderlings. As for what is there, he comments on a lot of stuff but mostly stays superficial. I would say he's scum but that's mostly because of bias, if I try to stay objective he's somewhere between null and meh. GTMH, shoot me.
(On the other hand if I'm right on Eco being scum, HR is strongly +scum because of Eco's spew)
2 & 4)
3) You've been townreading Highroller for some time, and he was already scumreading Ter. Saying your "Urge to townread Highroller [is] rising" "because Highroller is going after TerRaine" contradicts this previous read, where you acknowledged his Ter read but it wasn't (by itself) your reason for townreading him.
That non-progression worded as progression is
• All who give Eco a pass because he is rational and his thought processes are easy to follow need to stop doing that and drop him to at most null. These are player-quality tells, they say nothing about a player's alignment and only tell you they are competent.
To put it another way, do you expect Eco to be either rational and collected as town, or a flailing imbecile as scum? Give me a break.
I don't claim to be right beyond any doubt about Eco, but at least try to read him past the NAI stuff.
• Highroller takes lots of strong stances but he barely justifies them (or he handwaves them as "feels") and he does not do much more than state them and move on (if given the chance). In other words, reads instead of content.
The fact he had to be told to "come at [Ter]" is extremely atypical for him, a more usual reaction is "leave me alooooone". Here the paragraph on Ter is basically tacked on at the end of #570 so we don't forget he is/was scumreading her.
The switch to Jackrito is... eh. The rationale behind it is fine on the surface, however AFAICT HR is/was scumleaning on Rhand and it doesn't make a lot of sense to scumread Jack in this situation unless expecting Rhand to flip town. The timing of it is suspicious as well, right after KJ interrogated Jack.
• The nonsensicalness of scumreading Jack for (essentially) wagonning against Rhand while also scumreading Rhand also applies to Killjoy — especially since the argument is not that Jack could be bussing, but that he is being opportunistic.
• All in all I tend to agree with Jack's #564, the rising momentum against him has all the signs of prepping the scapegoat for the ritual sacrifice. I still need to figure out if that momentum is being created by scum or by useful idiots.
I'll need to check but IIRC you don't spend more time asking others about their opinions on Igno than actually interacting with Igno themself.
1) Could you reiterate where does that read came from initially? You had a clearly biased, already-stuck-in-the-tunnel interpretation of his first content post, and I can't see anything bad with his previous (RVS) posts.
2) His recent posts have been decent, I would be more offended if you doubled down. I'm surprised with the complete reversal, but it's hard to interpret it right now.
3) Why? Is it because he is scumreading Jack, who you used to scumread, then townread, then [???]?
4) Where is your mouth anyway?
(BTW, it's confusing but Jack's TSlist in 563 is a repeat of Grape's list in #450, similar to that time Rhand copied Jack's list.)
A note on methodology: I intentionally look only at the big picture when I do these, because the quality of individual posts is not necessarily AI and scum have to follow an overall agenda regardless of how well (or poorly) they are playing. In particular, if "the big picture" gives a different impression than reading the posts as they come does, I consider this a sign of a possible agenda.
Rhand's ISO: His content is very underwhelming, even after he stopped complaining about his own cluelessness. He is consistent in that regard, and I did not see any sign he was only pretending. If he's conning us, he's going for the long con.
Gun to my head, Rhand is town.
Eco's ISO: He has lots of content, most of which is explaining himself (
Saying Eco pushed Jack is a bit of an exaggeration though, he doesn't go much farther than making sure we know he's scum-reading him. It could be his playstyle but... since when is it anyone's playstyle to vaguely stare at someone you are hardcore tunnelling and not really do anything to them. Until I ISOd him I had no idea he had disliked Jack this much and for so long. All in all it feels like a placeholder scumread, the type you make up so you don't get into trouble for not doing enough scumhunting.
Gun to my head, Eco is scum.
Vote: Ecophagy
My vote is staying there unless I am given an excellent reason to move it.
———
Would "scum-Rhand not kicked into gear" take this form?
You are asking about his playstyle in general, how is this going to help you read him during this game in particular?
Unvote
The timing of Axel's case and vote was probably more coincidental than I initially knee-jerkingly thought. The analysis still reads like it was written with the intent to justify the vote at the end, but
@goo: I'm for running up someone in the Eco/Axel/Rhand/HR group and will (re)vote accordingly.
@Ter: Why are you so secretive about whatever Axel did that's so bad? Are you learning anything from the answers you get?
@Highroller: Why do you take goo's claim at face value? He could be memeing.
For the same reason, why do you expect the real cop (if applicable) to counterclaim?
Re #490: you have lots of strong opinions, please back them up.
Are you still scumreading Ter? Apparently she didn't say much that caught your eye.
@Axel: Why do you focus on analysing small events? What do you expect to learn from the gooRhand argument?
(What is "anti-meta"?
@Igno: Even if you don't have reads or if they don't stay long, try to leave some kind of trail. For example if someone makes a good / bad argument say it, if you agree / disagree with someone say it, if a post let an impression of any kind on you say it, etc.
By the way, Ter is a darn good woof and so are many players here (including myself). If you are town (which I currently think) I advise against sheeping anyone in this game. If you think you only need to be paranoid of Rhand you will be sorry before long.
****.
———
Tentative TSlist sponsored by sleep-deprivation:
Town?
Grape, Igno, Jack, KJ
Null
goo, Sloth, Ter
Axel, Eco, HR, Rhand
Scum
I want to review at least the bottom four, if I have time.
Chances are he is genuinely distraught by the repeated attacks on him since barely-post-RVS. He is making reads that make sense for (town-)him in context, rather than reads that make sense in general (which, if he's scum, would be the more obvious path). The fact he never appeals to emotions and never goes full on "woe is me, I am the top scumread" is also a positive.
None of that is strongly town-telling, but it's still +town.
• Looking back at Rhand's reads, the only thing justifying his scumlean on Axel is "Axel just agreeing with Vaimes’ readslist without adding any input feels like buddying". On the other hand he dedicates an entire paragraph to Goo. So his scumlean on Axel is not merely weaker than the one on Goo, it's so much weaker it doesn't make sense to have them on the same level and to let such a fuss happen about it. (I stand by my previous observation that it would be more coherent for scum-Rhand to avoid this situation, but this still needs clarifying.)
Also I still question his town-read on Eco. "Eco has thought processes that are easy to follow and make a lot of sense" is obviously a controversial opinion.
• Jack is an extremely non-confrontational player, for the record. He is currently firmly within his NAI meta.
What's wrong with getting someone to claim range a few days before deadline?
And did you forget I was already voting Eco (before that point)?
By the way, do you think Eco and Axel are buddies?
Considering you cased him by interpreting every micro-step of a single interaction as (possibly) scummy, and considering your own interaction with Grape afterwards, I would say you have the most conviction out of anyone voting (or previously voting) Eco.
While we are on the subject, looking up #275 and earlier posts made me see you had already noted the Ignophagy interaction. Why did you wait so long before analysing it? It's not as if your conclusions would have changed much.
When is the last time you've been alive in LyLo as town?
I made the mid-D1 line. And it's not "he's much more likely to be town" so much as "that's his playstyle".
Anyway, do you intent to spend the entire Day sheeping? How do you decide who to sheep?
How would scum-KJ know the Grape thing was BS ?
(Also "musky choice" is terrible, even worse than Grape's "VaGoo".)
It also gives me pause that Axel jumped straight to casing Eco and voting him over a single event from 300 posts ago, when Eco has a lot of content and many pros and cons. Coming from anyone it would be suspicious, coming from Axel (who, as town, hates jumping to conclusions) it is doubly so.
• On Goo VS Rhand, I agree with Goo it would be more logical for Rhand to sort Axel a little higher (even if he has to dedicate a category to him). That being said, how does scum-Rhand benefit from being illogical here? It's not as if it would prevent him from voting Axel after a town-Goo flip, or at any point for that matter.
Why is this not NAI? I have access to the same memories regardless of alignment.Because you were the only one I could see having a scum mindset. Also, you've done multiple things that were
What made you change your mind regarding Axel and Eco?
———
Unvote
Vote: Axelrod
IGMEOY: Ecophagy
The lack of advertisement is obviously an issue, but an unadvertised MUPC is still more likely to attract new players than an obscure subforum in a necrosing M:tG forum.
One way Eco could be lying is if he wants to paint himself as a rational townie who does everything for a reason. This is a great way to be townread by exploiting human bias. It also fits with goo's analysis of him as very careful.
The issue with this argument is it cannot be proven or disproven, and is born from the sum of my own bias against Eco and the flabbergastingness of the situation. I can only make sense of things by being paranoid and it's frustrating.
• Possible bussing aside, goo is even more confirmed town if Eco is scum, for bringing up the entire issue above.
I don't mind the line about not knowing how to townread Day 1 Axel, I interpret it as "I don't like him but that's always the case Day 1". I have the same issue so I can relate.
I agree with Rhand, Axel and goo are unlikely to be woof-woof.
• Jack being "consensusy" is usual for him and is NAI. Not that I find his reads/leans particularly consensusy, other than the reasons given for them.
• Highroller having a warped view of others' play is completely par with the course for him. It's at most NAI.
• I am a treasure hunter looking for a type of gold named "Clarity". I ask questions to lay my doubts in the open and get the questionee to reveal their mindset. I do not expect anyone to slip up, nor do I expect to be wowed, and I (try to) drop points once they've been clarified enough.
I am intentionally getting away from the "prodding until something is revealed" method, it keeps failing me. I keep prodding Eco because I keep not getting him.
• Ter's wall is superficial at times but not to the extent of being Reads Instead of Content. By itself it's NAI, the fact she did it at all is a little +town.
I asked about the rustiness because I can't see myself giving advice while rusty — but I did post a lot about how to play or against bad-on-principle arguments in my one post-hiatus scum game.
Granted, everyone's different and you seemed to have a much softer hiatus than mine, where you still hung around and spectated games. So... it's just another thing that bugs me but doesn't prove anything.
You were caught in Snow White for making up reads while blatantly not reading the thread.
Why are you phrasing this like Sloth knows Rhand's alignment?
Does that include the bit about his naked vote on Jackrito with no follow-up being a serious vote meant to ellicit a reaction in Jack?
I sit in my helicopter while they both drown in the null swamp, both slowly rising to the surface where the town leans are, but not there yet. Goo rises faster than Ter, whose foot got momentarily stuck in some plants early on.
———
I can finally pinpoint what bothers me so much with Ecophagy. It's the fact I used (pre-hiatus) to play exactly like this as scum. I was more forward than he is because I like to take the lead, but it would have been the only obvious difference. I can literally see my old scum self in his posts, and the positive comments Eco is getting from some players are the same comments I used to get all the time.
Call it a soul read, but with more self-doubt.