I think if Eco's scum Axel is marginally +town. Shielding him for basically no reason makes them look related (in my biased Eco-is- view), but Axel is a big boy who can defend himself on his own against an ignoramus.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy .
ZDS: it would be an instrumental part of the roleplay that is scum pretending to be town though. If eco had never met ignoramus before then it would be weird if suddenly he knew stuff about him. Eco would know that. It doesn't matter if it has an obvious benefit, it costs him nothing.
Could be. It's a Day 1 read anyway, I'm not married to it — but I also think it's stronger than "it could be a scum ploy", which is never a good argument. Any reason you are concerned about this issue?
Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)
I thought he was both new and town, so getting him to understand why his read was bad might help him look at something else and make a better read. Plus if he was interested in discussing it that would have been towner. I suppose it was a little on principle as well because I'd rather execute people for good reasons because that has a better hit rate.
I am not town reading Axel. He hasn't done anything so far that I'd consider particularly alignment indicative.
I doubt you would have been so quick to conclude they were newb town if you were not presuming that was the case. I suppose this kind of bias is NAI, like Sloth said. Nevertheless it bugs me how much it looks like you were going for the easy pocket.
Someone said you are rusty. Are you rusty?
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?
What is really bad is that TerRaine gets right on the bandwagon. For no less than FOUR posts, TerRaine proceeds to jump down Ecophagy’s throat for basically nothing.
@Ter: You are obviously giving Eco the stink eye, any reason you are not *actually* going after him?
So many reasonable, NAI posts with reasonable, NAI thought processes...
Reasonable & NAI posts are frustrating. They don't show intent (by definition) and they are terrible for short-term analysis. This is why nothing major is happening .
Post #108 was really just an attempt to get ignoramus to think out loud to see if he could work out that his reason for scum-reading Axel was bad.
Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)
I would like Eco to walk me through how #106 and #108 were meant to help him figure out Ignoramus, and if he has gotten any closer to figuring him out thanks to them.
His question about Igno's reads lead nowhere and I don't see how it could have lead anywhere, and his question about whether Axel was acting newbie-like on purpose is written like it's meant to influence Igno's read.
Other players feel free to give your two cents, while I'm not yet at the only-scum-could-have-written-these stage.
Actually I'm really interested in knowing what Axel has to say about #108 and Eco pushing Igno away from him.
Another thing re: Eco+Igno, Igno not actually being new makes this less likely to be a woof-woof interaction (or Eco would have known Igno wasn't new).
I think the TerVSEco discussion makes them both look bad, through them both making decent points against the other. Which I guess means they aren't woof-woof either, or they are great at distancing.
Speaking of Ter, she seems to have completely forgotten about asking Lagoon if he saw "anything curious within the fluff", and to be completely fine with Laggy ignoring her.
Rhand reminds me of his Shoushiling (scum-)self so far, asking questions and making statements that lead nowhere. Caveat: it's early, maybe he'll wow us later.
Temporary +town for Sloth on the assumption he is voting Rhand for similar reasons (maybe minus the meta part).
I also thought KJ was "going along with the joke" but... apparently not? I don't know if I should make anything out of this . I kinda agree with Eco Grape's take is +town, I'm not sure it means anything about KJ himself (who I'm still townreading from before).
Igno's vote is bad and could come from opportunistic scum (voting Axel after he noticed Grape mentioned scum-reading him)... which would mean having enough awareness to notice the invisible voteless wagon on Axel but not enough to predict he is 100% going to raise eyebrows with the justification for his vote. Which doesn't make sense.
In simpler terms, I'm townreading Igno for his bad vote.
On the other hand Eco looks more interested in coaching him and guiding him to his van than in figuring him out. What's with the whole "you know Axel is experienced" "I looked at his post count" "that's what I thought", it smells fishy and maybe fake.
Vote: Ecophagy
Also at fluffmaster Sloth acting like breadcrumbing is the same as posting content. It's early though so it's NAI.
Re: c): sorry I wasn't clear, I meant asking yourself internally (like most self-questioning goes). Ie figuring out for yourself whether there was anything curious within the fluff (and sharing with the town if you are so inclined). Maybe you are doing it but you since all you did until now is add to the fluff, it's hard to tell.
Your chime is very welcome, mister(?) random nobody.
I also (personally) like tight-knit communities over giant Mafia factories, and as I understand it (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the plan is to remain that. We would be a small island inside a much larger archipel, with players coming and going as they please.
Our issue is not how many games we are running at once, it's the dwindling of our community. MTGS is a dead site (most members moved to "MTG Nexus"), we barely ever get truly new players (only travellers like you who come from another community), old players come and go. Other than Cantripmancer's game which is an exception, games take months to fill up.
No matter how tight-knit the community, if it can only rely on travellers to grow and on veterans staying to not dwindle, it's going to slowly die. I have seen it happen to completion elsewhere, and it is currently happening here.
So we are moving to essentially become the new blood we lack.
---
As for where, my vote goes to Mafia Collosseum over Mafia Universe since we were invited by Osie, who is very active here behind the scenes and knows our needs / preferences well.
I don't know what options we have other than these two (or going to nexus and having secret games, through PMs and user profiles :-p )
You are everywhere, hosting and playing and reviewing games accross multiple communities. What is the last game here you didn't either host or review? It's a wonder it took you so long to burn out. You deserve a break after all this hard work.
ZDS, why did you go Rhand over me? I thought that's what you were gearing towards?
Like I told Grape, I had to be sure I was voting scum.
It was a tough choice: between the two of you, Rhand was better at acting town in a vacuum while you were better at arguing and playing the part of the offended townie. What tipped the scale was Rhand triggering the irrational hatred of players who string up multiple posts after a catch-up/re-read that I apparently now have .
Yup, I hear you. Being aggressive from the start made sense back when Day 1 wagons grew and dissolved quickly, but now I need to get on with the times.
I also need to better articulate what my votes mean, I vote whoever is my best bet for scum which is a far cry from being sure they are scum.
More seriously, my only regrets this game are ousting Pokechu and not pointing the finger at Johnny for popping in then disappearing at the very end. I do blame the town for its tunnelling (come on, read 346 again with hindsight), however I understand I must be to blame since...
... this is the third game in a row where I, as town, trigger extremely hostile reactions from other townies, pretty much right from the start. There is something about me that irates people, and I haven't figured out what (I have ideas). It's not relative activity, it's not aggressiveness vs passiveness. It may be related to my lack of investment (what Pokechu called lazyness).
The result is I can only have fun (as town) by not caring what happens to me and who wins, and by becoming even less invested. I did try to take things serious during Day 1, and it was a horrible experience (mainly because of Highroller).
I have not explored all the ways to remediate that issue yet, but frankly if this keeps happening there may come a point I stop playing.
There, sorry about the negativity, I wanted that off my chest. I did have fun at the end, starting when I stopped giving a F.
@ZDS why did you vote Rhand? I said it in my chat but you voting Rhand right after I said I was leaning wanting to vote GJ toDay really threw me (Rhand's response rang alarm bells a bit too but I really thought GJ had to be scum here).
Because I had to vote scum and I had more certainty the team was Rhand/x than Johnny/x.
I had very little expectations of it working regardless. Even if I had voted Johnny, you may have voted him as well but HR would have most likely voted me.
you know what I find funny, how irrelevant my thoughts became after I died
mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Not at all, you inspired me to reconsider Johnny.
@Highroller This is the second game you have tunnelled me to death over something extremely minor. Is there actually a way to get you to stop tunneling? (One that actually works, don't say it's about making the right post if you are going to scum-read the post anyway.)
@Pokechu Sorry your first game here was so short, I was shortsighted and the scum-team's useful idiot. I hope you come back for more.
———
Re: Set-up: I think something less cryptic would have been better, such as telling players their role-type (protection, investigation... ) and telling us about the win/loss/draw mechanic.
The upgrade mechanic was a weird choice for a micro (and therefore short) game.
I won't be here during the final rush (because time zones), so you guys have fun and I'll see you postgame or toMorrow (<- pretend this smiley is waving goodbye)
So, having reread the game, I don’t see myself voting anyone except ZDS. I’ll listen to arguments, but he was far and away the most suspicious person in my book coming into this day and rereading the thread has not changed this.
If I'm tunneling a player, which includes town-tunneling, no amount of rereading them is going to make me change my mind.
On rare occasions I have an epiphany and realise something I was not understanding about them, but most of the time the only way I get out of a tunnel is by listening to other players.
Unfortunately nobody is vouching for me .
———
As another side note, if anyone here is trying to figure out who to bury after burying me, don't, that's pointless. You will find out why if you bury me.
I can't get invested in the game for reasons I want to keep for myself until postgame so it doesn't look like I'm appealing to emotions.
I tried to clear myself out of respect for those who care about the game more than I do, it's the least I can do since my reads aren't strong (neither subjectively nor objectively) and I'm in the eye of the storm.
If I cannot remove myself from the POE pool despite being the player least likely to be scum with anyone else, so be it.
Instead, let's start some action.
Vote: Rhand
Him and me are in basically every seriously suggested scum-pairing IIRC, especially me. So it's likely at least one of us is scum.
If we are both town, then he gets double-hammered and we lose and I suck. This would mean the scum-team is GJ/GF or GF/HR or HR/GJ, in which case the entire town sucks.
If he doesn't get double-hammered, then like I said at least one of us has to be scum (hint: it's not me).
Which means it's a duel:
— In the red corner, Rhand with his signature attack, the "circular logic punch",
VERSUS
— In the blue corner, ZeDorkSlipeur with his signature attack, "kicking himself in the low-hanging fruits".
———
I'll be back in several hours, have fun screaming at me.
Jack disappearing for ~2 days and miraculously reappearing as soon as Ter asked him a question made me jump, but the analysis dump afterwards was decent and somewhat justifies the absence. It looks like he put thought into these reads and isn't just bull*****ting, like he is capable of doing.
Rhand having a hard time forming opinion is a good thing (to a minor extent), since scum-him could easily throw a couple logical or consensual town reads here or there to pretend he's doing something and hide among the crowd. I think he is legitimately struggling.
Highroller going after someone who made a bad early-Day 1 push is... typical Highroller. He's allergic to bad attacks even when it's early Day 1 and everything is flimsy
———
Could be. It's a Day 1 read anyway, I'm not married to it — but I also think it's stronger than "it could be a scum ploy", which is never a good argument. Any reason you are concerned about this issue?I doubt you would have been so quick to conclude they were newb town if you were not presuming that was the case. I suppose this kind of bias is NAI, like Sloth said. Nevertheless it bugs me how much it looks like you were going for the easy pocket.
Someone said you are rusty. Are you rusty?
You haven't argued "on principle" against any other vote (or I missed it), are you fine with them?@Ter: You are obviously giving Eco the stink eye, any reason you are not *actually* going after him?
I was her scumbuddy once (Prison Block II on this site) and she was really awkward when we (well mostly I) bussed Goo or when she bussed me. So, no.
Reasonable & NAI posts are frustrating. They don't show intent (by definition) and they are terrible for short-term analysis. This is why nothing major is happening
Anyway...
Why did you want to do that?
Are you townreading Axel?
Are you arguing on principle against a bad argument? (If so, what's the point? Can't scum-Axel be "caught for the wrong reasons"?)Technically yes but it would be a counter-intuitive play with no obvious benefit. I'm fine igoring that option toDay.Not yet. Ter's responses to that line of questions were ultimately reasonable and NAI.Yes, you can.
Do you find all current "wagons" (I'm using the term very loosely) unconvincing? Which one is the least unconvincing?
———
Townread on KJ hardening, that inquisitiveness is his town groove and he's trying to make things happen.
His question about Igno's reads lead nowhere and I don't see how it could have lead anywhere, and his question about whether Axel was acting newbie-like on purpose is written like it's meant to influence Igno's read.
Other players feel free to give your two cents, while I'm not yet at the only-scum-could-have-written-these stage.
Actually I'm really interested in knowing what Axel has to say about #108 and Eco pushing Igno away from him.
Another thing re: Eco+Igno, Igno not actually being new makes this less likely to be a woof-woof interaction (or Eco would have known Igno wasn't new).
I think the TerVSEco discussion makes them both look bad, through them both making decent points against the other. Which I guess means they aren't woof-woof either, or they are great at distancing.
Speaking of Ter, she seems to have completely forgotten about asking Lagoon if he saw "anything curious within the fluff", and to be completely fine with Laggy ignoring her.
Rhand reminds me of his Shoushiling (scum-)self so far, asking questions and making statements that lead nowhere. Caveat: it's early, maybe he'll wow us later.
Temporary +town for Sloth on the assumption he is voting Rhand for similar reasons (maybe minus the meta part).
I also thought KJ was "going along with the joke" but... apparently not? I don't know if I should make anything out of this
———
Yes if meant to pocket or influence.Axelrod is an Ignoramus alt!
In simpler terms, I'm townreading Igno for his bad vote.
On the other hand Eco looks more interested in coaching him
and guiding him to his vanthan in figuring him out. What's with the whole "you know Axel is experienced" "I looked at his post count" "that's what I thought", it smells fishy and maybe fake.Vote: Ecophagy
Also
No, from their takes on Axel (and on each other's takes).
It's even worse if he crumbed his role.
Re: c): sorry I wasn't clear, I meant asking yourself internally (like most self-questioning goes). Ie figuring out for yourself whether there was anything curious within the fluff (and sharing with the town if you are so inclined). Maybe you are doing it but you since all you did until now is add to the fluff, it's hard to tell.
Vote:
VaigooLagoon for posting the countdown too early — you were supposed to post it at the last minute for maximum trolling!Vote: Slothful for voting the dayvig.
Vote: Grapefruit for not actually being a dayvig.
Unvote because I can't multivote
Actual take: Grapefruit and KJ are town for their telepathy-based interaction and because I (think I) mindmeld with both.
Why ask this question to Lagoon in particular, rather than a) to everyone in general, b) to fluffier players like Sloth, or c) to yourself?
I also (personally) like tight-knit communities over giant Mafia factories, and as I understand it (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the plan is to remain that. We would be a small island inside a much larger archipel, with players coming and going as they please.
Our issue is not how many games we are running at once, it's the dwindling of our community. MTGS is a dead site (most members moved to "MTG Nexus"), we barely ever get truly new players (only travellers like you who come from another community), old players come and go. Other than Cantripmancer's game which is an exception, games take months to fill up.
No matter how tight-knit the community, if it can only rely on travellers to grow and on veterans staying to not dwindle, it's going to slowly die. I have seen it happen to completion elsewhere, and it is currently happening here.
So we are moving to essentially become the new blood we lack.
---
As for where, my vote goes to Mafia Collosseum over Mafia Universe since we were invited by Osie, who is very active here behind the scenes and knows our needs / preferences well.
I don't know what options we have other than these two (or going to nexus and having secret games, through PMs and user profiles :-p )
You are everywhere, hosting and playing and reviewing games accross multiple communities. What is the last game here you didn't either host or review? It's a wonder it took you so long to burn out. You deserve a break after all this hard work.
Like I told Grape, I had to be sure I was voting scum.
It was a tough choice: between the two of you, Rhand was better at acting town in a vacuum while you were better at arguing and playing the part of the offended townie. What tipped the scale was Rhand triggering the irrational hatred of players who string up multiple posts after a catch-up/re-read that I apparently now have
I also need to better articulate what my votes mean, I vote whoever is my best bet for scum which is a far cry from being sure they are scum.
You may be right, unfortunately I was too preoccupied griefing the loss of my dear friends Time, Patience and Hope to make the right choices. ;-)
More seriously, my only regrets this game are ousting Pokechu and not pointing the finger at Johnny for popping in then disappearing at the very end. I do blame the town for its tunnelling (come on, read 346 again with hindsight), however I understand I must be to blame since...
... this is the third game in a row where I, as town, trigger extremely hostile reactions from other townies, pretty much right from the start. There is something about me that irates people, and I haven't figured out what (I have ideas). It's not relative activity, it's not aggressiveness vs passiveness. It may be related to my lack of investment (what Pokechu called lazyness).
The result is I can only have fun (as town) by not caring what happens to me and who wins, and by becoming even less invested. I did try to take things serious during Day 1, and it was a horrible experience (mainly because of Highroller).
I have not explored all the ways to remediate that issue yet, but frankly if this keeps happening there may come a point I stop playing.
There, sorry about the negativity, I wanted that off my chest. I did have fun at the end, starting when I stopped giving a F.
———
Because I had to vote scum and I had more certainty the team was Rhand/x than Johnny/x.
I had very little expectations of it working regardless. Even if I had voted Johnny, you may have voted him as well but HR would have most likely voted me.
Not at all, you inspired me to reconsider Johnny.
@Highroller This is the second game you have tunnelled me to death over something extremely minor. Is there actually a way to get you to stop tunneling? (One that actually works, don't say it's about making the right post if you are going to scum-read the post anyway.)
@Pokechu Sorry your first game here was so short, I was shortsighted and the scum-team's useful idiot. I hope you come back for more.
———
Re: Set-up: I think something less cryptic would have been better, such as telling players their role-type (protection, investigation... ) and telling us about the win/loss/draw mechanic.
The upgrade mechanic was a weird choice for a micro (and therefore short) game.
Which means the scum team is confirmed to not be GF/HR. It could technically be GF/RH or RH/HR since they wouldn't be able to double-hammer.
———
As a side note, if anyone still wants to know why I didn't reread Grape and Highroller, it's because I tend to fall into the following trap myself:
If I'm tunneling a player, which includes town-tunneling, no amount of rereading them is going to make me change my mind.
On rare occasions I have an epiphany and realise something I was not understanding about them, but most of the time the only way I get out of a tunnel is by listening to other players.
Unfortunately nobody is vouching for me
———
As another side note, if anyone here is trying to figure out who to bury after burying me, don't, that's pointless. You will find out why if you bury me.
I tried to clear myself out of respect for those who care about the game more than I do, it's the least I can do since my reads aren't strong (neither subjectively nor objectively) and I'm in the eye of the storm.
If I cannot remove myself from the POE pool despite being the player least likely to be scum with anyone else, so be it.
Instead, let's start some action.
Vote: Rhand
Him and me are in basically every seriously suggested scum-pairing IIRC, especially me. So it's likely at least one of us is scum.
If we are both town, then he gets double-hammered and we lose and I suck. This would mean the scum-team is GJ/GF or GF/HR or HR/GJ, in which case the entire town sucks.
If he doesn't get double-hammered, then like I said at least one of us has to be scum (hint: it's not me).
Which means it's a duel:
— In the red corner, Rhand with his signature attack, the "circular logic punch",
VERSUS
— In the blue corner, ZeDorkSlipeur with his signature attack, "kicking himself in the low-hanging fruits".
———
I'll be back in several hours, have fun screaming at me.