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  • posted a message on Sign-ups: Realm of the Elderlings Mafia
    /spectate

    This looks like it will be fun to watch/play, too bad I can't keep up with large complex games.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    A lot has happened in the last ~2 hours.

    I think it's extremely convenient CC waited the last moment to claim a role that should be given a chance to prove itself (thus forcing the town to take a rushed decision), but I can believe he did truly miscalculate how long he had until deadline (because of time zones).

    So now the correct play would be to find someone else to vote, only with less than six hours left our only options are 1) a mostly random rushed wagon that will give us very little info besides a flip, 2) eliminating me, 3) no elimination.

    Option 1 is awful, option 3 is bad. The only viable option is 2, eliminating me, as Highroller smugly pointed out (I'll have the last smug though).

    I'm going to keep my vote on CC because it's too late to vote someone else on a whim and I'm not going to vote myself. This will be my last post for the day (and Day), I'm going to enjoy the rest of my evening.

    ---

    The absence of ZDS who could become the top wagon even by mistake is noted.
    ZDS's life does not revolve around a game of Mafia.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    I'm voting CC because I think he's scum and he's my strongest scum-read (above JoeTerry). It's a fact that his flip will influence my other reads, including and perhaps especially the one on JoeTerry.

    Recently I have been interacting with JoeTerry because he was posting and interacting back. CC doesn't post that often so it's hard to interact with him.

    With regards to cutting CC some slack for his come back, I understand the sentiment but I'm not going to stop voting my top scum-read out of pity. I don't think he himself wants pity, anyway.

    And I very much disagree with letting him live because you want to lynch some other scum first or because he could be town and lynching him would be mean.
    1) Lynch order matters infinitely less than simply lynching scum. Unless you have inside knowledge or you are a Mafia goddess, you are putting the cart a mile ahead of the horse by deciding he isn't worth executing now even if scum.
    2) He *IS* the best lynch for POE-building. Maybe that wasn't the case by page 4, but a lot has happened since then and most players have taken a stance for or against him. The only other player who is a good lynch for POE-building is myself, and the best thing my flip will do is force Highroller back into relevancy (sorry about the random jab HR but it's true).
    3) He could be town. The same goes for everyone else. See above with regards to pitying him.

    I don't blame you for voting me, and your reasons for letting CC live are noble, but you are mistaken about a lot of things.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    @Joe I don't lay traps, I am legitimately trying to figure out where you stand.

    You have had Vaimes and CC as your top scumspects since your re-read, but after that you have made posts that imply you changed your mind (unvoting CC, finding the CC-Vaimes interactions inconclusive) AND made posts that imply you have *not* changed your mind, *without* ever making it clear if and how your stance on the two had progressed since the re-read.

    It's confusing. It's hard to tell whether you are genuinely reconsidering your tunnel or merely pretending to do so. Do you get that?

    Part of the reason I'm tunneling you is because I can't make sense of your (lack of) progression, and because of the timing of unvoting then re-voting CC. I have a much easier time seeing you as a scumbuddy flip-flopping between bussing and not bussing and bussing again.

    Of course if CC flips town, that's moot. If CC flips scum, I want to understand your thought process in case you aren't actually his partner.

    ----

    In Prison Block II Vaimes and I were scumbuddies, and I thoroughly threw him under the bus.

    This is the case I wrote, with the benefits of inside knowledge.

    To summarise it, Vaimes in that game:
    — Posted A LOT of meaningless fluff. Seriously, 90% of his posts were completely dispensable.
    — Threw opinions and votes like he was playing darts blindfolded.
    — Conveniently changed his mind in order to bandwagon town.
    — Barely ever applied pressure to anyone.

    Other than maybe the last point, this has not been the current Vaimes at all. It's possible of course he has improved his scum game a lot since then, but nevertheless he is solidly town by comparison.

    That was mostly @JoeTerry and @cayvie, or @anyone interested.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    Quote from Ampharos »
    zds roughly 80x more villagery than in voldemort
    I struggled to keep up in Voldemort, my play in Matter (town) and Prison Break II (scum) is more representative.

    --

    Quote from Highroller »
    Would be willing to lynch the following people today: ZDS, Proph, or Cayvie. (Sorry Cayvie, I know you just switched in, but your predecessor, Jackrito, did nothing but bandwagon all day.)


    Someone needs to explain to me exactly why CropCircles is a better lynch candidate than the above, because the CropCircles wagon has been awful.
    @Silver FYI, this is the kind of stance I expect from someone scumreading much of the CC wagon.

    --

    Quote from cayvie »
    he's also like "this post of cc's feels townie" and from what i can see it's just a random paragraph that i can't make any particular alignment read off of.
    The paragraph in question is the exact same paragraph CC self-quoted in his last post to accuse me. I don't know what to make of it but I can't help notice the coincidence.

    Re: Above: Based on your analysis Vaimes is only scummy if CC is town and he's washing his hands off that wagon, so I think it's too early to follow that path without a CC flip. Moreover, even if CC flips town, Vaimes is the type who often can't be arsed as either alignment.

    I do think he should answer the part about letting a town read die, but I don't have high expectations for a meaningful answer.

    --

    @JoeTerry Correct the following sentence if I'm wrong: Your analysis of CC-Vaimes interactions came up inconclusive and your vote went to the individually scummier one, who happened to be CC, but you could still be swayed to vote Vaimes instead.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »
    Oh and also, the line about going after you rather than Proph for "vague and safe non-stances" is a reimagining of the yes-stance argument, which was about whether your stances were stance or not.
    Fixed, word order matters.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    Im mobile only so can’t get into too many details, but I found this very interesting: The two players I was interested in voting after my recap were CC and Vaimes. Then shortly after CC makes a big catch up post that doesn’t even mention vaimes once. I don’t see how vaimes could just be completely omitted by someone (CC) doing a review especially because the person just voting you and like I said obviously baiting you pointed vaimes out as potential scum as well.

    So I want to go back and look more carefully at their interactions because I’m wanting to make sure I’m not just tunneling, because you know only scum tunnel right? (Yes that’s a pointed and sarcastic remark aimed at you ZDS)
    1) Sure, do your best and give us your conclusions before deadline.
    2) You overestimate your own importance, whatever that means.
    3) When have I ever said or implied "only scum tunnel", other than in your dreams? The post you quoted literally ends with me admitting I'm tunneling. What is that strawman for?

    Quote from CropCircles42 »
    I voted for ZDS because I couldn't follow his logic. See here:
    Quote from ZDS when voting me »
    And no the irony of accusing him of doing what he's accusing Proph of doing is not lost on me. But there's my second issue with this post: whereas Proph is experimenting by looking for lurkers too early and is ******* up as a result, CC hides carefully in a dark corner and seems to mostly focus on not ******* up. To bring back the digestive track, Proph had guts, CC has none.
    Quote from Me Link in response »
    The real difference here is that Proph put a target on half the players in the game for something that obviously isn't actually telling at all. It was clearly too early in the game to start lurker hunting as several of us hadn't even checked in. My accusation was against unjustified bandwagon votes, which is an accusation against just two players and is for a legitimate reason. As opposed to a meaningless accusation against half the town.
    ZDS admits that he's accusing me of the same thing I was accusing Proph of, but he paints it as "hiding in dark corners" (not sure what that's supposed to mean) and says that makes it worse. That doesn't track.

    Let me put it this way: if making "vague and safe non-stances" is telling, why would he go after me and not Proph for the Poppin Bottles(tm)? He acknowledges this contradiction (probably to hang a lantern on it), but that doesn't change the fact that it is a contradiction. This leads me to believe he is inventing the reason for his vote. I would have voted for him regardless of whether he used this logic against me or against someone else. I am not confusing my attack on ZDS as an defense of myself, but I think people are taking it that way.
    There's no contradiction in explaining why I'm interpreting two superficially similar actions differently Shrugs .

    Also, I don't follow how you can say this is your main gripe with my vote.
    #102 contained two arguments: That what I called vague non-stances are neither vague nor not-stances (I'll call this "the yes-stance argument"), and that your multi-targetted accusation was more legitimate than Proph's multi-targetted accusation (I'll call this the "legitimate scattershot" argument).

    Then there was #128 which focused only on the yes-stance argument, which became the main thing we argued about. The legitimate scattershot argument disappeared until... actually it hasn't resurfaced yet. The argument you just brought up is brand new.

    Whereas the legitimate scattershot argument was about how different and better than Prophylaxis you were, your new argument is that I contradicted myself by pointing out the similarity between you and Proph.

    Oh, and the line about going after you rather than Proph for "vague and safe non-stances" is also a reimagining of the yes-stance argument, which was about whether your stances were stance or not.

    I question the strength and veracity of your scum-read on me when you can't correctly remember why you are scum-reading me in the first place, other than a vague sense of trying to find and exploit flaws in the case I made.

    (For people in need of context, see Proph's Popping Bottles Theory, CropCircles' first post, and my CC vote which he responds to in #102)
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    I really appreciate cayvie making the effort to look up my and CC's posts in spite of his "random shot to see what happens, and then look at the aftermath later" self-meta and despite not understanding at first what the deal was about (@cayvie maybe you missed it by skimming, CC and I were tied at four votes each at one point; the three replacements in a row killed both our wagons). It shows his willingness to contribute and figure things out is higher than his desire to look consistent.

    Also saintly poop it's helpimabug! I don't remember if we ever played together but I do remember you from reading really old games. This game is such a blast from the past!

    --

    @Vaimes I definitely agree with letting Grape breathe. He's in my scum team because of team-building and POE, and this being Day 1 with no flips yet there are many ways I could be proven wrong or change my mind. On his own, he's solidly null.

    --

    I don't have an opinion yet on WMU's posts since my last intervention (I'm waiting for her conclusions) but I do like the general vibe of inquisitiveness / figuring things out on her own she gives out.

    @WMU FYI, on desktop you can hover over where it says "X hours ago" or "Y days ago" to see the exact time-stamp of a post.

    Also FYI, Proph meant to tell you CC isn't scumhunting (etc.), rather than speak about you and say you aren't scumhunting (etc.).

    --

    @JoeTerry
    1) What do you think of CC's lack of reactions to (iirc) *any* of the votes on him besides mine?
    2) When you say you are going to explore the Vaimes-CC interactions, do you do that from a starting point of scum-reading CC, town-reading CC or null-reading CC?

    -------------------

    Due to the recent townieness or I'm-okay-with-it-ness of various players, I don't have null reads anymore (except Grape who gets downgraded to scum by POE). Here's where I stand (in player list order):

    Good:
    1. silvercrys3467 (previously null)
    2. ZeDorkSlipeur
    3. Rodemy r. Ampharos
    4. Prophylaxis
    5. Jackrito r. Cayvie (previously null)
    6. Vaimes
    7. Dkingsland967 r. xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx (previously null)
    9. Axelrod
    11. Highroller

    Bad:
    8. Grapefruit21 (technically null)
    10. TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
    12. CropCircles42

    Not all my town reads have the same strength. For example the Axel read is based on imperfect meta (I know his town game, I don't remember his scum game) and Proph could have pocketted me with his stanning. Nevertheless I can say with confidence that I do town-read the entire "Good" block, not merely not-scum-read them. Even silver. If I look past our differing beliefs he's pretty okay.

    This means I'm either crazy good at this game or crazy easy to pocket. In order to figure that out, I will only vote CC or JoeTerry.

    If either of them is town, I need to kick myself out of any tunnel or pocket I'm in and completely reconsider everything.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    @ZDS: You acknowledged I don't believe my suspects are the exact wolf team; I'm not sure what the distinction is between that and "there's probably a wolf voting him" but there isn't one for me lol
    I'll put this issue under "ways we think differently" and worry about it when I need to.

    --

    Even coming from JoeTerry, #349, #350, #351 and #356 are a lot of nothing. The shift between #306 (and prior) and these makes me think he has already entered damage control mode, assuming he isn't simply distracted by outside-the-game factors.

    @JoeTerry Please don't ignore me. Tell us everything that went on behind the scenes of #305. What obvious bait did you set, what did CC (not) do to not fall for it, and what does that mean for CC?

    As long as you don't answer I will assume you are doing one of your poorly thought-outs scum gambits like the ones you pulled in Voldemort.

    --

    CropCircles' response to me in #355 is fair in a completely non-telling way. Shrugs

    @CC It's out of topic, but FYI, you had a legacy that remained after you faded away. I saw a few new players here (back then) use the word "honestly" as a scum-tell without themselves knowing they were parroting an argument you had made in a game some time before (at least I think it was you). Obligatory Link

    --

    cayvie highlighted in #357 one of the interactions that make me think CC/JT/GF make sense as a team. I'm not sure it means much in a town-JT world, especially considering iirc Grape has since changed his mind again on JT (which goes against the scum-GF smelling town-JT's blood in the water interpretation).

    @cayvie You have not said anything about the two big wagons of the Day (on CC and on me).
    1) Why?
    2) What are your thoughts about each of CropCircles and me?

    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    It's not universal but an early reversal on a read like that is more common for townies. Going from "this pile on is suspicious [ergo this person is clean]" to "actually I'm going to join" is the right sort of contradictory. It's a natural if jagged evolution of thought. Not pure band wagoning, but clearly thinking about things even if I disagree with the conclusions.
    It's called OMGUS (for "Oh My God, U Suck") and there's nothing deep about it. Town do it on impulse in reaction to what they see as a bad or unfair vote, scum do it either to fake impulsiveness or to flip the attacker/attackee dynamic.

    --

    Quote from Highroller »
    Having said that, I would suggest using your energies less on arguing whether or not you're more relevant, and more on arguing why you're not mafia. Yes? Sound good?
    I would rather spend my energy on sharing my thoughts with the thread and catching scum, thank you very much.

    --

    Quote from Prophylaxis »
    don't really know how i feel when CC posts stuff that warrants JT suspicion but ends it on the "i'll give it a pass for now". like, if they're buddies, this has to be... like TOO blatant
    There is no such thing as "too blatant", and the blatant buddy interactions between the two go both ways (CC -> JT and JT -> CC).

    --

    I like WMU calling out cayvie in #382.

    -------

    My current scum-team stays the same although cayvie is making great strides in taking over Grape's slot with his suspiciously specific choice of posts/people to talk about.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    I see what you're saying re: Axel.

    @Proph JoeTerry unvoted in #305
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    Quote from ZeDorkSlipeur »
    Also Proph stop voting Vaimes
    get to be town by elimination.
    Fixed
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    I like Vaimes' 283, I don't agree with much of it but I see where he's coming from and I like his grumpiness.

    --

    I'm still very okay with Proph. Nevertheless, Stern Look of Disappointment: Proph for apparently thinking I FoSed Silver for not scumreading CC, which makes no sense if you read my previous post.

    Also Proph stop voting Vaimes?

    --

    I'm not going to town read him just because there's probably a wolf voting him
    I never said anything about a wolf.
    Quote from 307 »
    he's saying "Silver, I think you're suspicious because you aren't town reading CropCircles who is being voted by all of your wolf suspects"

    That is what I'm saying. "A" wolf is nothing to write home about, "all" wolf suspects very much is.

    If your confusion is genuine: I don't care how anyone reads CC as long as I understand how they got there in their own perspective. Vaimes and Grapefruit have town reads on CC and while I disagree with them, I understand their perspective on the matter and I agree to disagree. On the other hand I don't understand your perspective (or lack thereof).

    --

    I like how Axel is absolutely guiltless about his own uselessness. That opinion will change if he stays that way Day 2.

    He made a long but still useless post just now. My opinion doesn't change.

    --

    Grapefruit has a different arguing style when defending (controversial) players and when going on the attack. When defending others, he has a sort of confidence-he's-right he doesn't have when attacking.

    It could be a playstyle thing or a Day 1 thing, so I don't feel like pursuing him now, but it smells like inside information.
    Quote from Grapefruit21 »
    Jack doesn't point to what ZDS is doing differently this game,
    Indeed, since it's CC's "posts and stance" that changed.

    --

    Jack should answer what exactly feels off about the CC-me interaction, and how one of our flips will influence his read of the other.

    On the other hand I don't care much for his weird takes, such as finding Axel proactive. These strike me more as a result of skimming and not paying attention, which is sloppy play but not a tell either way.

    --

    I have a slight scum read on JoeTerry. His play could come from either side, but
    Hope that helps, I doubt it will because you already seem like you're tunneled. It's almost a sure thing that anyone who posts anything substantial like I did to catch up, will be attacked because it's content, content that people can like or dislike. You can like or dislike what I said, but I'm putting myself out there and giving my thoughts, I'm not hiding. I literally do this almost every game I play in and every time I get heat for it as either alignment. It's not because I'm bad at this game or that I'm scummy, it's just content for people to pick at during an otherwise slowly moving game and I'm happy to provide the discourse.
    is hard to take seriously. It's empty humble bragging ("woe is me, I always get heat from being such a great teamplayer"). I do agree with Amy he's playing better than in Voldemort, but it doesn't mean he's town: being co-SK in a 20 players game is a lot more pressure than being scum in a 12 players game.
    Bah

    Unvote

    CC didn't take my obvious bait. It just means that CC isn't obvious scum. Recalibrating...

    Please tell us more.

    --

    I'm okay with CropCircles' re-read for the most part. He raises good points about Dkings. What I don't get is how "[he's] putting DK, JoeTerry, and Jack (in that order) as [his] most suspicious after [me]".

    He gave DK a "Leaning scum read" so him being at the top (and getting the vote) is fine, but he gave JoeTerry a "Reading as mildly questionable" and Jack a "Reading as questionable". Based on CC's own words the order should be Dkings/Jack/JoeTerry, not Dkings/JoeTerry/Jack.

    Before anyone says I'm nitpicking, we are talking about someone who analysed the use of the words "but" and "though". Words matter to CropCircles. By the way, did you know a long time ago he single-handedly got the whole community to treat the word "honestly" as a scum-tell? Words matter to CropCircles.

    --

    Quote from Highroller »
    His salient contributions to the game were - and indeed still continue to be -
    Starting the CC wagon. Does that not matter? Granted, most players voting him came to their own conclusions about him, typically as a result of catching-up/re-reading. So you could argue I merely happened to be first and the wagon would have happened regardless of my input.

    Still, you have no room to tell anyone
    Quote from Highroller »
    At best it is a myopia to what is actually going on in-game,
    when you haven't been relevant since page 2~3.

    --

    3am Amy is best Amy.

    ---------------------------

    Hot take: the scum team is CropCircles/JoeTerry/Grapefruit.

    CropCircles had mostly scummy content until now. JoeTerry went for the bus at first. CC put JT higher on his list than he should be as part of a distancing attempt. JT unvoted when realising they could move forward without bussing CC. Day Chat may have come into play.

    Grape I'm less sure, but he fits very well in the "intentionally taking the opposite stances from his buddies so he doesn't get spewed" slot.

    Everyone else including Silver and my null reads gets to be town by elimination.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    (This is in reaction to Vaimes, but directed at everyone)
    CropCircles as a designated misyeet does not make sense. His wagon has been moving much too slow for that to be the case. He is at most the designated not-me yeet (everyone voting him is either me or townreading me), which makes him the counter-wagon to the OG designated misyeet (me).

    From there, two possibilities:
    - CC is scum and his buddies have either given up on him or are struggling to get a counter-counter-wagon going.
    - CC is town and scum are happy with the results no matter what happens.

    Now, the above should make sense to people town-reading me. On the other hand to people scum-reading me, CC should be a martyr in the making.

    Which brings me to Silvercrys:
    Silvercrys
    Highroller
    Vaimes
    Rodemy?

    Axelrod
    Grapefruit
    Dkingsland
    CropCircles
    Jackrito
    ZDS
    Terry
    Proph


    is roughly where I'm at
    All of his scum-reads are voting CropCircles, yet CropCircles is in his null-reads block (near the bottom, if that means something).

    Even if I give him the benefit of doubt and assume those are all independent reads and he's not saying he believes the entire scum team is voting CC (and iirc he did say something along those lines in the past), I still cannot imagine how someone can see all their scumspects vote the same player yet not have a strong opinion on that player or on that situation.

    FoS: Silvercrys

    Explain yourself.

    ---

    Dkings, Vaimes, Axel, Grape: Either pick a side or put some effort in getting a third wagon going, don't stand there pretending to do something.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    I agree with Rodemy that JoeTerry's catch-up is extremely narrativy. In addition, it reminded me of something I saw him do as scum in Prison Block 1 (which I partially read out of curiosity during Prison Block 2).

    However, reading the post I had in mind, it turns out they are superficially similar but also significantly different (ie: this time JoeTerry isn't commenting on every single post).

    Inside my head I went from "yay I found scum" to "hold on, maybe it's a thing he does as town and sometimes mimics as scum".

    @JoeTerry : Do you have example of recent town games and recent scum games where you did that type of catch-up/analysis?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Snow White Mafia - Day 2 - Dopey ditched dinner
    We are at the halfway point for the Day and considering the pace, we should decide now who we want to remove (so we still have some leeway in case of a clearing claim).

    My current case on CropCircles: He started the game by taking pointless stances ("non-stances" as I call them) that do nothing except help him maybe justify bad votes later on, and after that he's been lazily retaliatory-voting me without ever adding anything substantial (be it about me or about the game at large).

    My opinion on the other scumspects: None of them is as clearly scummy as CC is, but feel free to try and convince me otherwise. You will probably need to towncase CC though (Vaimes, I'm looking at you).

    ---

    Quote from CropCircles42 »
    I was going to point out that this only makes sense if Highroller is town, but then I remembered that you probably know he's not mafia because he wasn't listed in your role PM.
    Like I've said before, I'm townreading him. You can do better than such a weak "gotcha".

    Quote from Prophylaxis »
    I'm not very familiar with scum ZDS, but is he the type of player to instigate a wagon on his buddy?
    For your information I do like to bus as scum.

    Quote from Vaimes »
    I will now present my "the scumteam is JT/Jack/Axel" case, courtesy of Jackrito.
    Quote from Jackrito »
    Axel can be town because being proactive and I like his posts.
    Quote from Jackrito »
    DK and JT are too low content to be valid trains just yet imo.
    Thus concludes my "the scumteam is JT/Jack/Axel" case, courtesy of Jackrito.
    I don't get it. I can see Axel (the proactive thing), but why JoeTerry and not dkings? And why not anyone else he's town-reading / null-reading?


    @Highroller, now you are accusing me of not doing the exact thing scum-me would have done to get you off my back and make myself look good (looking back to find whatever can be construed as an inconsistency). At least it's something new.

    Question: Do you consider yourself a good scum player? Do you have a good reputation as scum?

    I'm asking because if you play as scum the way you think scum-in-general play, I assume the answer is no.
    Posted in: Mafia
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