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  • posted a message on Evolution Sage + Graft + ETB land fetch
    I have a few procedural questions about how multiple triggered abilities off ETB effects and stack sequencing would play out. Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of my steps in the scenario below.

    An Evolution Sage and Llanowar Reborn with a +1/+1 counter are on the field. A creature that fetches a land on ETB (such as Ulvenwald Hydra) is played.

    1) Since both the Hydra's and Llanowar Reborn's triggered abilities trigger and go on the stack when the Hydra hits the field, the player may choose which goes on the stack first, and as such the player could choose to put the graft ability on the stack first, then the land fetch ability from the Hydra on top of that.

    2) When the ETB land fetch ability resolves, a land ETBs and triggers the Sage's triggered ability, thus placing a proliferate ability on top of the stack (and thus on top of the graft ability already on the stack). Then as the proliferate ability resolves it could then choose the Llanowar Reborn and give it an extra +1/+1 counter. At this point the graft ability is still on the stack and hasn't done anything yet.

    3) As the graft ability on the stack resolves, a +1/+1 counter is removed from the Llanowar reborn and placed on the Hydra, leaving a +1/+1 on the Llanowar Reborn as it had two on it prior to the graft ability resolving. If the triggers had been sequenced in the opposite order, the Llanowar Reborn would be left with zero counters, correct?

    Bonus) If at the start of this scenario the Llanowar Reborn had no +1/+1 counters on it, but there was also a Nissa, Who Shakes the World on the field as well, the Nissa could use it's (+1) to turn the Llanowar into a creature (so long as it wasn't already), it would gain three +1/+1 counters, and those three counters could then be grafted away, correct?
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Leyline of Abundance + Gyre Sage with no counters Question
    Thank you! That's what I suspected, I just couldn't find the rule. Also thank you for catching my stack usage mistake - wasn't even thinking about that as I was typing...whoops!
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Leyline of Abundance + Gyre Sage with no counters Question
    I'm a bit unclear on this interaction (Leyline of Abundance + Gyre Sage when the Sage has no +1/+1 counters on it), and it's largely due to a confusion I'm having with the meaning of the phrase "whenever you tap a creature for mana".

    From rulings for the Leyline: An ability that triggers “whenever you tap a creature for mana” triggers only if you activate a mana ability of a creature including T in its cost.
    From rulings for the Sage: Gyre Sage’s last ability is a mana ability. (Also, that ability does have T in the cost.)

    Unless I'm mistaken, so long as no other effects and summoning sickness isn't a factor, nothing prevents you from tapping the sage to activate it's ability, so it could be tapped, the ability would go on the stack, and then the ability would see that there are zero counters as it resolves, and so would produce zero G on it's own. This is where I get tripped up, and can see two possibly scenarios depending on how that phrase works:

    1) The phrase means something akin to "whenever you activate a creature's tapped mana ability"
    The Sage taps for zero mana, but because it's mana ability was activated the Leyline creates a bonus G. This would mean that in a situation where there were two untapped Forests and a tappable Sage with zero counters on the field you could cast a spell costing up to GGG.

    2) The phrase means something akin to "whenever a creature's tapped mana ability generates mana"
    The Sage taps for zero mana, and since it generated no mana the Leyline also creates no mana, meaning in the same scenario (two untapped forests and a tappable Sage with zero counters) you could only cast a spell costing up to GG.

    My gut tells me the correct interpretation is #2, but something about the phrasing and the rules leave me just enough doubt I'm not sure... Much thanks if you can help clarify this for me.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Nissa, Who Shakes the World + Hardened Scales Question
    How does the sequencing of Nissa, Who Shakes the World's +1 ability work, and in particular how does that interact with Hardened Scales? I'm aware that Hardened Scales won't put extra +1/+1 counters on things like Llanowar Reborn as it's a non-creature, and my reading is that Nissa's +1 is similar as it indicates to put the counters on a land, then the land untaps, becomes a creature, and gains haste and vigilance, but since the land wasn't a creature at the time the counters were put on the triggered ability of Hardened Scales never triggers. Is this a correct interpretation?
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on ETB change effect sequencing question
    Let's say I have a Grim Guardian on the field and a number of other creatures, for the sake of this example let's say 4 others. If I enchant the Guardian with an Infinite Reflection, will the creatures become copies of Grim Guardian in time for each of them to deal the 1 damage for the Reflection enchantment entering the field, leading to a total of 5 damage when the Reflection enters?

    Also, just to make 100% sure, each other creature would ETB as a Guardian, and so the next creature would cause 6 damage to be dealt (1 for itself and 5x 1 from each if the others alre as dy there), the one after that would deal 7, etc, correct?
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Color-based Cost Reduction for Split/Fuse Cards
    I want to make sure I'm understanding this right... Let's say I have a Sunscape Familiar on the field, and a Protect // Serve and a Beck // Call in hand. Assume there's enough mana for each of these scenarios:

    1) I want to cast Protect only. If I'm connecting 708.3 and 601.2 together correctly, I announce Protect, put the spell on the stack, then determine the cost. While on the stack, Protect is considered white only, so there is no cost reduction, correct?

    2) I choose to cast both Beck and Call fused. In this case, per 702.101c the two halves go on the stack as a single spell, and that spell is both blue and green. Per Sunscape Familiar's rulings, this would lead to a total cost reduction of 1 (more specifically not 2), meaning the fused spell would require 3WUUG to cast, correct?

    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Multi-blocking and "Can block more than one creature" interactions
    How does the ability of a blocker to block more than one creature (say from Brave the Sands) interact with multi-blocking? Specifically, can the second creature blocked contribute to a dual block?

    For example, let's say an opponent has a Ghalta, Primal Hunger and a Charging Tuskodon on the field (16/16 total with trample), and I have a pair of Wall of Denials (0/16 total) along with a Brave the Sands. If my opponent attacks with both of his dinos, could I assign one blocker to just the Ghalta, and then the other to both Ghalta and the Tuskodon, and in the end no damage would go through?

    Also, let's say I have something like High Alert and the Walls assign damage similar to 8/8's...do all 4 creatures die (ie, who chooses how to split the damage when blocking 2 creatures with 1 blocker)?

    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Non creature permanents with +1/+1 counters
    Quote from prplcow913 »
    Quote from CalvinSchwa »
    Note, though, that if you then chose to activate the ability and make Nexus a creature, the counter would suddenly have something to do again, Nexus would be a 0/0 creature, and it would die just as before.

    In this scenario, what happens if Necroskitter is on the battlefield under the control of an opponent of the player with Nexus? I'm assuming that the Nexus would return under that players control since skitter says "card" instead of "creature" though I'm not certain it would matter either way. Just curious Smile

    So, fun fact, anytime a card's text refers to something in a graveyard or other non-battlefield zone, it will always refer to that thing as a card or spell, as cards are only considered to be what they represent while actually on the battlefield. Consider how something like Arcane Adaptation refers to "creatures" when discussing something you control on the battlefield, but "creature spells" for (I believe) things you control on the stack, or "creature cards" for things not in play at all (hence the lack of the word "control"). In the later two cases, "creature" is the spell/card type, but until it's on the battlefield it's not actually considered a creature.

    Also, abilities that trigger off of creature death only consider the last state of the object, not the intrinsic qualities of the card. A great example of this is Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, which only reanimates a card if it died as a creature (ie a thing on the battlefield) with power 1 or less. A creature with a printed value of 2/2 that had a -1/-1 counter on it and then dies would die as a creature with power 1 or less, and thus would be brought back by Shirei. Similarly, a Mutavault in the same situation, or a Swamp that was turned into a creature by a Kormus Bell, would die as a 1/1 creature, and so the ability triggers and brings the card back, regardless of the printed values or normal types of the card. Alternatively a 1/1 creature with a +1/+1 counter on it would die as a 2/2 creature, and be an invalid target for Shirei.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Big Game Hunter + Shirei vs. "Until End of " +1/+1 effects
    Quote from MadMageQc »
    You're correct, "until end of turn" effects don't end until the cleanup step, which is after the end step where Big Game Hunter is returned to the battlefield by Shirei. The creature is still big enough to be targeted and destroyed at that point.

    Perfect! Thank you!

    Quote from chaikov »
    Quote from fillasophy »
    we couldn't figure out when the buff faded from the 3/3 based on the phrasing on the card
    Which card was that?

    Tbh, I don't remember exactly, lol. Long and short of it was we'd not run into end step vs cleanup step timings before, so just didn't know the difference. I've fixed my post to reflect it being an issue with me, not the card.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Big Game Hunter + Shirei vs. "Until End of " +1/+1 effects
    I have Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and Big Game Hunter both on the field. My opponent has a 3/3 targetable creature that has been buffed with some variety of "creature has +1/+1 until end of turn". At some point during this turn my Hunter dies, and "at the start of the next end step" is successfully reanimated by Shirei.

    The power buff on the 3/3 creature will not fade until the Cleanup Step, but Shirei's ability brings the Hunter back during the End Step, so the 3/3 (now a 4/4) creature would be a legal target for the Hunter's ETB ability and thus it would die to the Hunter, correct?

    Ran into a small issue with this where we couldn't figure out when the buff faded from the 3/3 based on our knowledge of those phrasings, but after reading up I believe this is how it should have gone down, so I'm double checking with you all. Thanks!

    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Mass reanimating 1/1 creatures vs Blanket -1/-1 effects
    Thank you for the reply (and the revisions!).

    This is more or less exactly what I figured it would be. To make sure I understand how delayed triggers work, the delayed triggered ability is caused by whatever event triggers it, but doesn't actually trigger/go on the stack until the delayed/later time indicated (in the Shirei example, a 1/1 creature dying "sets off" the ability, but it doesn't go on the stack until the beginning of the next end step), at which point all similarly-timed triggers are considered to go on the stack at the same time, and thus in the order of my choosing as their controller, correct? Also, since Zulaport Cuutthroat itself is a 1/1, as long as it wasn't buffed to survive the culling it would LTB (triggering for each creature including itself on the way out), but each future reanimation and immediate death would NOT trigger its ability as it would not be on the field for any subsequent death save its own, correct?

    Lastly (and I think I misread this bit at first) are you saying that a Zulaport that somehow survived the -1/-1 culling (via buff, etc) would put it's trigger on the stack above the remaining Shirei triggers for each creature that immediately dies to the -1/-1 debuff, or that the delayed triggered ability from Shirei would trigger again, and since we're still in the beginning of the end step the delayed trigger would immediately go on the top of the currently-resolving stack? In the later case (which I suspect is incorrect) wouldn't this create an endless loop of a single creature's death, so unless it was a creature like Zulasport that would win me the game or someone had a way to intervene, the game would draw?
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Mass reanimating 1/1 creatures vs Blanket -1/-1 effects
    Let's say I have a Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker in play or a Thrilling Encore in hand, along with a Zulaport Cutthroat and a number of other 1/1 non-token creatures. An opponent plays a persistent effect that gives my creatures -1/-1 (say due to an enchantment the likes of Ethereal Absolution), killing all of the 1/1 creatures via state-based effect.

    1) In the case of Shirei, how do multiple delayed triggered abilities interact with the stack? Since Shirei's delayed triggered ability is triggered off of each individual creature death and all the creatures in this scenario die at the same time, do I get to place them on the stack in an order of my choosing when they die, or does the assignment of order occur at "the beginning of the end step", or do all the triggers resolve at the same time and so the order wouldn't even matter? Can the triggers be repsonded to (I imagine they can), and if so, when (at the time of death or the beginning of the end step as they resolve)? And do the creatures all exist at the same time after reanimating (does the state-based check occur after all reanimations) meaning each creature would trigger the Zulaport Cutthroat's ability when the -1/-1 kicks in, or do they enter and get state-based to oblivion one at a time (the state-based check occurs between reanimations), meaning the Zulaport could only trigger for itself?

    2) In the case of the Thrilling Encore, do all creatures ETB at the same time, or do they enter one at a time (basically the same end question as #1 as it pertains to the Zulaport triggering)?

    Thanks! Smile
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Can Phyrexian Plaguelord's First Ability target itself, and if so what happens?
    You can certainly activate Phyrexian Plaguelord targeting itself, but as the sacrifice is part of the cost it is sacrificed when you put the ability on the stack. So the ability will then be countered for not having a legal target.
    So the Plaguelord died still being a 4/4, so wouldn't trigger Shirei.

    Your understanding is a rather off. Targets are indeed determined when you put spells/abilities on the stack, but the effect isn't 'processed' until the spell/ability actually resolves. Which is LONG after you pay the costs for the spell/ability.

    Hope that helps explain things for you.

    Thanks for the thorough explanation - alas, my pipe dream is dead, but my understanding is improved, so a net positive. But to extend the example a bit farther, here are two additional scenarios:

    #1) So following the correct reasoning, I COULD sacrifice 3 other creatures, using Plaguelord's second ability on itself three times to bring it down to a 1/1, THEN do whatever (let a spell destroy it, chump block, use it's fist ability to inflict some hurt on an opponent's creature and get the sac trigger, etc) and Shirei's ability will trigger (assuming it also survives to end of turn of course), yes?

    #2) Let's say an opponent uses Shock to ping the Plaguelord for 2 damage and I allow it to go through without resorting to Scenario #1 above. They then use a second Shock to attempt to kill it. Can I then proceed with Scenario #1, or will the Plaguelord cease to exist after the second -1/-1 is applied? From what I've seen I believe the latter is the case, as the active player (me) would retain/receive priority after the second resolution, prompting a state-based effect check that would find it to be a 2/2 with 2 damage on it, sending it to the graveyard prior to the final resolution, and in this situation it would die with two power, meaning Shirei's ability wouldn't trigger, correct, or would all three -1/-1 apply allowing it to die as a 1 power creature?

    #2a) Tangentially, let's say an opponent attacks me with Master of Cruelties, and I don't block. Now that his ability that will set my life total to 1 is on the stack, could I respond to it with something like Bond of Agony for all (or even more than) my current life total (assuming I have enough mana) allowing me to win the game, or would I lose the game first from the state-check? Also, in a multiplayer game my ability would leave the stack on my death, meaning it wouldn't result in an immediate draw, correct?

    Thanks again!
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Can Phyrexian Plaguelord's First Ability target itself, and if so what happens?
    An odd one here... Could a Phyrexian Plaguelord use it's first ability to give ITSELF the -4/-4, turning it into a 0/0 then sacrificing itself, or would it be unable to target itself as it would already be dead? My understanding is that the target would be determined and the effect processed (turning it into a 0/0) prior to the cost of the ability being paid, and then the cost would have to be paid and so the sacrifice still occurs prior to the state-based effect sending the Plaguelord to the GY, correct?

    For context, I'm building an EDH deck around Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker as its commander (so being able to make a creature of mine have 1 or less power is potentially useful to me), plus I intend to run Smothering Abomination - so if the Plaguelord was the target of a spell or used as a blocker, could I respond and make it Shirei-able, and also maybe get the sac trigger out of it?


    PS - thoughts/suggestions on other cards that could be (ab)used like this would be appreciated. Triskelion is for sure already in the deck, and I'm even considering Workhorse lol Smile
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
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