Tbh I don't play the deck much anymore, but from testing Ben's list out, I came to a sort of midway point with Ben's list and my previous lists. If you're facing combo and Burn, yeah, you want at least 1 Kambal maindeck.
Well, I ran it last night, and I will agree with you, the deck sorely needs a board wipe or ensnaring bridge type card to deal with go-wide decks. And it also needs a way to deal with other permanents. Maybe Cleansing Nova? Might be too slow though.
Also, I still got smashed by Tron but them's the breaks. Ben's maindeck is so bad against Tron G1 that you might as well just concede upon seeing a Urza land and go to sideboarding. Probably didn't help that I really only drew removal and lands, but still, I can't imagine it being too much better.
In my own meta I didn't ever really bring in Tocatli Honor Guard so I would probably remove them for a sweeper and engineered explosives.
The sideboard is basically a huge "up yours" to Tron and graveyard decks, which are the 2 decks we've traditionally struggled with. I find it funny that in previous months we had debated FoR vs Fulminator, only to have him just jam playsets of both. I'm going to give it a run with no changes tomorrow and see how I like it!
I think it is because he hasn't posted the SB yet, or at least that's what he said on Twitter. It's quite an interesting take on the deck, though I'm not that convinced about maindecking 2 LtLH with only 4 creatures. Gideon over Sorin is another surprising choice since the lifegain seems quite important with 4 Bobs, 4 Seizes and 14 >=3cmc cards.
The Liliana is more of just an alternate wincon in this deck. It definitely seems to be a meta call - the Mythic Championship didn't have a lot of burn, for example. I would agree about lack of lifegain. It seems like he's hedging really hard for the 4 Shambling Vent and the Vault of the Archangel. Kaya and Collective Brutality also offer some incidental lifegain. I'm going to test out the build today vs some friends once I see the full sideboard.
Ben Stark ran a sort of B/W Planeswalker control deck that I'd only consider Deadguy Ale because of the Confidants, Lingering Souls, and discard. It definitely seems intriguing. I like the full 4 Field of Ruin, plus the Lilianas - definitely should be enough to pressure even Tron. Not sure why there are only 6 Sideboard cards though!
So it seems like they focus on not jamming proactive cards into the eternal formats now, and for the most part that's worked out alright, especially since Play Design has been involved. Two busted cards in three years from supplemental products not designed to target one single format (and prior to a team specifically established to filter such elements out, most recently three years ago) seems like such things are more the exception and not the rule.
The problem is that even if they are exceptions, their very existence is egregious and warps formats. For example, Grixis Delver, a deck that should theoretically fold to a monstrous deck like Eldrazi, can stonewall and steamroll with True-Name Nemesis. Entire decks such as Stoneblade emerge to use an insanely busted card. Heck, G Delver stopped using Clique to use TNN. When Clique isn't good enough you know something's up. Powerful cards always pull formats around them. It's sort of like the 80/20 principle in effect in reverse: 20% of the cards affect 80% of the format. Think of how an "exception" like KCI warped the format around it, or how an "exception" like Necropotence created Black Summer. Make no mistake: an exception is an exception, but these exceptions can cause severe damage.
Personally, I'd be very excited to see what these teams could come up with when Modern is the focus. I certainly don't want this hypothetical format to overhaul the format, like you, but I believe that good reactive cards and tools for new or underrepresented strategies would be very welcome. They also don't need to make hundreds of brand new cards; existing cards are relatively easier to predict, and there are always current Modern cards in dire need of reprinting. The mix of all of these things could definitely make for a very nice Modern product with time and good people working it, don't you think?
Part of what I enjoy about Legacy, and in a sense what I enjoy about Modern, is that once you choose a deck, it is good for a decent amount of time and there are customizations you can make depending on what new cards get released. In some cases your deck evolves into something else, but that's fine. Personally, I actually don't mind the filtering that Standard creates. For Modern, there have been enough cards, both obvious (Arclight Phoenix) and seemingly innocuous (Hollow One) that have spawned their own decks and archetypes. I guess I'm more conservative in this regard and I don't think that cards such as Counterspell or Baleful Strix would be beneficial for the format. One thing to be aware of is that formats can be "too much" in flux which is just not enjoyable at all for me.
I'm extremely glad to hear that this product won't ever be released, or that the likelihood of such a product is slim at best.
Whenever cards are "designed" for formats, you get garbage in Legacy like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and True-Name Nemesis.
wonder if this can be used by grixis death shadow decks or is it to slow?
I am going to test out some in the sideboard for creature matchups to see how it does. Some of GDS' worst matchups are tribal decks and this card could be a potential 2-for-1 or in rare cases a 3-for-1. At the same time, I'm not still sure that it would just be better than Bolt-Snap-Bolt for most situations. Anyway, I think it warrants testing so we will see!
As someone who is a huge Teysa fanboy, the only tear I am shedding is one of anger.
You can't play this in a Teysa deck!
This whole set is a middle finger to the Orzhov. This card is the tip of that middle finger.
Awful mechanic, awful cards, one of the worst planeswalkers ever, and now even the things they're known for are color shifted. I won't be participating in the prerelease nor will I be purchasing cards from the set. I'm sure it won't matter in the long run, but it's really insulting.
Whilst Kambal is extremely effective in the right matchups, he is actively bad against creature decks like humans, spirits and hardened scales. Mainboarding him seems loose as he will be dead weight in around a third of your matches.
I should have been more clear, when I stated that I had one maindeck, it was a personal meta call. I've been seeing a lot of arclight phoenix type decks lately, in addition to the current combo and burn. He definitely is dead in a few matchups, but that's what faithless looting is for.
what does everyone think of our spirits matchup? I'm struggling with it and don't know if it's actually bad or if I just need advice with it
It's not good. Luckily, there is an answer: Ensnaring Bridge
Sadly, I'm having to board it in more and more lately to the point where I think it should just be in the maindeck and I would SB the Blood Moon. Spirits can Queller it, but that's their only MD answer most of the time. Against Dredge and graveyard decks, I have 4 Leylines and 2 Ensnaring Bridge. This makes the matchup "slightly" better because you have more lockpieces than they have answers.
My current deck. Notable inclusions are a maindeck Kambal to better fight combo and burn, and a Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Sorin has actually overperformed in my experience. Most of the time you have so many tokens that you're getting a huge swing when he comes down.
The concept for this deck was to include as many slamdunk hate pieces as possible within the traditional Mardu Pyro shell.
The takeovers for me are that I need a more reliable finisher and that teching Spellbombs was a good choice, even if I didn't do well.
The thing is that versus big mana, you have to have a fast clock - which the Mutavaults can often provide. As you yourself found out, even 6 land destruction spells aren't enough. I've seen and played enough Tron to know that even Blood Moon isn't lights out if they can't assemble something quickly.
You are right, but FoR doesn't usually screw or curve (our mana base is already pretty consistent) but having 10-11 3cmc cards can make some hands too slow. And having both FoR and Fulminator really helps against Tron. In the MUps were Fulminator is not helpful (mostly Aggro), it's spot could be a removal or a cantrip, while FoR is still a land that doesn't hurt us much. However, I really missed Mutavaults, and I'm thinking about doing -1 VotA and -1 FoR to add +2 Mutavault. I might try 2 md Fulminators, though, if I'm able to find a place for them, since they could free me some spots in the SB and, as you say, it's still a good card.
Fulminator at the very least trades with most aggro creatures in a worst-case scenario. I think that we're not really so much arguing over Fulminator vs FoR, but FoR vs Mutavault. I'd probably not mind replacing Vault with another Mutavault to have 3 total in my list.
One thing I'm thinking is that Damping Sphere is probably preferable to most of the alternatives in general.
The results were... Well, really bad. However, I got some insights that might be interesting. The deck performed really well during the first few turns, but when the board was controlled, it lacked the speed to kill my opponents before they could recover. Almost every match can be resumed that way, really.
Unfortunate to hear about your results, but at least it was a good learning experience. For posterity’s sake, would you mind posting what decks you went up against? I can kind of sort of figure out that you played vs Control and Midrange, but that’s about it. I definitely like the 1 maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, that's a smart choice.
Another card that resulted to be amazing was Field of Ruin. It helped a lot killing Azcantas and manlands. However, I really missed Mutavaults to pressure my opponents. On the other hand, I never had an opportunity to use VotA.
Since killpower seems to be what's lacking, I'm thinking about adding +3 Gideon, AoZ on the main deck. However, that makes it difficult to fit the Spellbombs. I'm not completely sold on the Fulminators MD, though, since FoR achieves the same results for the decks where FM is needed but it's not a just 2/2 for 3 mana for the matches where it's not.
Right, and FoR is just a colorless land for the matches where it’s not, -and- it’s harder to sideboard with them, too.
Fulminator makes for a great threat and allows us to be more proactive. It’s a 3 mana spell that comes down as a 2/2 and always threatens. I’m glad that you are liking Field of Ruin, but unfortunately, you’re losing a ton of firepower with the loss of the Mutavaults.
My concern is that you’re dropping Mutavaults for Field of Ruin, so you lose the ability to turn the corner, which then further warrants more changes main deck. You’ll need to add more white mana for multiple Gideons, and I’m not sure what you would drop to change it.
That being said, like you, I still rarely find a use for Vault of the Archangel. This deck uses its mana nearly every turn and I haven’t really found too many spots where I just happen to have 5 mana open to activate it.
As someone who wasn't sold on the mainboard fulminator I see where you're coming from. I'm not sure that it's the best we can do, but sometimes it lines up perfectly. Opponent is stuck on 2 lands, blow one up. They flipped a search for azcanta, blow it up. They have a celestial collonade, play fulminator and dare them to activate it.
Unfortunately, I think that Fulminator really is the best that we can do.
I believe that the reason this deck does well is that it ruthlessly destroys the synergies in your opponent’s deck while generally advancing your own gameplan at the same time. A typical B/W deck will have at least 11-12 hand disruption cards, discard from Liliana, and of course, removal for key creatures. Remember, this is a midrange deck, so it can shift gears depending on the matchup. Fulminator Mage is the only land destruction card I know of that helps you do both.
I’ve had 4/2 lifeline Fulminators attacking, as well as a 2/2 that serves as a chump blocker, as well as a mana screwer. It’s a great card for this deck.
The Rock (G/B) can use FoR because it has powerful beaters like Grim Flayer and Tarmogoyf to offset - we don't. Thus, we need different cards to achieve similar purposes.
BTW, I echo everyone in saying that Assassin’s Trophy should have been W/B!
// 4 Creature
4 Dark Confidant
// 8 Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
// 24 Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// 10 Planeswalker
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
// 3 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
// 5 Creature
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
// 4 Enchantment
2 Stony Silence
2 Leyline of the Void
// 2 Instant
2 Surgical Extraction
// 1 Sorcery
1 Damnation
Also, I still got smashed by Tron but them's the breaks. Ben's maindeck is so bad against Tron G1 that you might as well just concede upon seeing a Urza land and go to sideboarding. Probably didn't help that I really only drew removal and lands, but still, I can't imagine it being too much better.
In my own meta I didn't ever really bring in Tocatli Honor Guard so I would probably remove them for a sweeper and engineered explosives.
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline Of The Void
1 Celestial Purge
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
The sideboard is basically a huge "up yours" to Tron and graveyard decks, which are the 2 decks we've traditionally struggled with. I find it funny that in previous months we had debated FoR vs Fulminator, only to have him just jam playsets of both. I'm going to give it a run with no changes tomorrow and see how I like it!
The Liliana is more of just an alternate wincon in this deck. It definitely seems to be a meta call - the Mythic Championship didn't have a lot of burn, for example. I would agree about lack of lifegain. It seems like he's hedging really hard for the 4 Shambling Vent and the Vault of the Archangel. Kaya and Collective Brutality also offer some incidental lifegain. I'm going to test out the build today vs some friends once I see the full sideboard.
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Dark Confidant
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
3 Collective Brutality
4 Path to Exile
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Field of Ruin
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
60 Cards
1 Celestial Purge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Stony Silence
1 Leyline of the Void
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/2019MC2/mythic-championship-ii-london-decklists-s
The problem is that even if they are exceptions, their very existence is egregious and warps formats. For example, Grixis Delver, a deck that should theoretically fold to a monstrous deck like Eldrazi, can stonewall and steamroll with True-Name Nemesis. Entire decks such as Stoneblade emerge to use an insanely busted card. Heck, G Delver stopped using Clique to use TNN. When Clique isn't good enough you know something's up. Powerful cards always pull formats around them. It's sort of like the 80/20 principle in effect in reverse: 20% of the cards affect 80% of the format. Think of how an "exception" like KCI warped the format around it, or how an "exception" like Necropotence created Black Summer. Make no mistake: an exception is an exception, but these exceptions can cause severe damage.
Part of what I enjoy about Legacy, and in a sense what I enjoy about Modern, is that once you choose a deck, it is good for a decent amount of time and there are customizations you can make depending on what new cards get released. In some cases your deck evolves into something else, but that's fine. Personally, I actually don't mind the filtering that Standard creates. For Modern, there have been enough cards, both obvious (Arclight Phoenix) and seemingly innocuous (Hollow One) that have spawned their own decks and archetypes. I guess I'm more conservative in this regard and I don't think that cards such as Counterspell or Baleful Strix would be beneficial for the format. One thing to be aware of is that formats can be "too much" in flux which is just not enjoyable at all for me.
Whenever cards are "designed" for formats, you get garbage in Legacy like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and True-Name Nemesis.
I am going to test out some in the sideboard for creature matchups to see how it does. Some of GDS' worst matchups are tribal decks and this card could be a potential 2-for-1 or in rare cases a 3-for-1. At the same time, I'm not still sure that it would just be better than Bolt-Snap-Bolt for most situations. Anyway, I think it warrants testing so we will see!
This whole set is a middle finger to the Orzhov. This card is the tip of that middle finger.
Awful mechanic, awful cards, one of the worst planeswalkers ever, and now even the things they're known for are color shifted. I won't be participating in the prerelease nor will I be purchasing cards from the set. I'm sure it won't matter in the long run, but it's really insulting.
I should have been more clear, when I stated that I had one maindeck, it was a personal meta call. I've been seeing a lot of arclight phoenix type decks lately, in addition to the current combo and burn. He definitely is dead in a few matchups, but that's what faithless looting is for.
It's not good. Luckily, there is an answer:
Ensnaring Bridge
Sadly, I'm having to board it in more and more lately to the point where I think it should just be in the maindeck and I would SB the Blood Moon. Spirits can Queller it, but that's their only MD answer most of the time. Against Dredge and graveyard decks, I have 4 Leylines and 2 Ensnaring Bridge. This makes the matchup "slightly" better because you have more lockpieces than they have answers.
My current deck. Notable inclusions are a maindeck Kambal to better fight combo and burn, and a Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Sorin has actually overperformed in my experience. Most of the time you have so many tokens that you're getting a huge swing when he comes down.
The concept for this deck was to include as many slamdunk hate pieces as possible within the traditional Mardu Pyro shell.
// 9 Creature
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
// 2 Enchantment
2 Blood Moon
// 8 Instant
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
// 20 Land
2 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Swamp
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
// 19 Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
1 Forked Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Dreadbore
4 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
// 3 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ensnaring Bridge
// 3 Creature
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
// 5 Enchantment
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Stony Silence
// 1 Instant
1 Wear // Tear
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 2 Sorcery
2 Molten Rain
The thing is that versus big mana, you have to have a fast clock - which the Mutavaults can often provide. As you yourself found out, even 6 land destruction spells aren't enough. I've seen and played enough Tron to know that even Blood Moon isn't lights out if they can't assemble something quickly.
Fulminator at the very least trades with most aggro creatures in a worst-case scenario. I think that we're not really so much arguing over Fulminator vs FoR, but FoR vs Mutavault. I'd probably not mind replacing Vault with another Mutavault to have 3 total in my list.
One thing I'm thinking is that Damping Sphere is probably preferable to most of the alternatives in general.
Unfortunate to hear about your results, but at least it was a good learning experience. For posterity’s sake, would you mind posting what decks you went up against? I can kind of sort of figure out that you played vs Control and Midrange, but that’s about it. I definitely like the 1 maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, that's a smart choice.
Right, and FoR is just a colorless land for the matches where it’s not, -and- it’s harder to sideboard with them, too.
Fulminator makes for a great threat and allows us to be more proactive. It’s a 3 mana spell that comes down as a 2/2 and always threatens. I’m glad that you are liking Field of Ruin, but unfortunately, you’re losing a ton of firepower with the loss of the Mutavaults.
My concern is that you’re dropping Mutavaults for Field of Ruin, so you lose the ability to turn the corner, which then further warrants more changes main deck. You’ll need to add more white mana for multiple Gideons, and I’m not sure what you would drop to change it.
That being said, like you, I still rarely find a use for Vault of the Archangel. This deck uses its mana nearly every turn and I haven’t really found too many spots where I just happen to have 5 mana open to activate it.
Unfortunately, I think that Fulminator really is the best that we can do.
I believe that the reason this deck does well is that it ruthlessly destroys the synergies in your opponent’s deck while generally advancing your own gameplan at the same time. A typical B/W deck will have at least 11-12 hand disruption cards, discard from Liliana, and of course, removal for key creatures. Remember, this is a midrange deck, so it can shift gears depending on the matchup. Fulminator Mage is the only land destruction card I know of that helps you do both.
I’ve had 4/2 lifeline Fulminators attacking, as well as a 2/2 that serves as a chump blocker, as well as a mana screwer. It’s a great card for this deck.
The Rock (G/B) can use FoR because it has powerful beaters like Grim Flayer and Tarmogoyf to offset - we don't. Thus, we need different cards to achieve similar purposes.
BTW, I echo everyone in saying that Assassin’s Trophy should have been W/B!