MTG Salvation

I concur with Crux of Fate. It's one of the few cards I consider a shoe-in. It really is Damnation for 1 more a bulk majority of the time. A corner case here or there where it whiffs against something, but unless you see people cramming tons of dragons into their decks it will almost always be a solid mass removal spell.

Warden of the First Tree has that new Figure of Destiny smell and could do something, I can see the potential, especially with all the effects that love +1/+1 counters right now.

Soulfire Grandmaster... hrm... even without activating its other ability a RW shell might be able to use it just for its lifelink property, turning Lightning Strikes into Lightning Helixes, but I'm definitely on the fence on this one.

Whisperwood... yeah, I'm not feeling it really, either.

Hordechief and the Shaman could be really good in the right shell, but the Shaman is very fragile and it could fall into that gap where it is just overmatched by more reliable cards at the same CMC. Same deal with Hordechief. Curve topper in warriors? Some other aggro deck? Or will it be shuffled off?

And I may have undervalued Tasigur, since his activated ability touched off that "Opponent's choice" sensor in my brain. I will be curious to see what the great players do with this.

And Ugin... well, he'll be an EDH darling at least, and with Tron in Modern could he find a home? I'm not on that scene either right now, so I can only speculate, but is he usable in Standard? I don't know, my opinions on him mostly come from an EDH/Casual POV.

Ok, well while I admit that I REALLY want an Ugin for my Duel Deck Master Series project (making homecrafted duel decks for each mono and dual color combo balanced against each other for pick-up-and-casual-play) so I can have an entirely colorless deck (been brain storming on it, it's rather funny ^_^), I'm kind of glad I didn't invest in a box this time. I was watching the spoilers, and I had a feeling that this set was going to be really weak in the middle; meaning the gap between the most valuable cards and the rest would be rather large. I'm on the fence about Manifest. It seems like it could be fun, but I'm not sure how good it really is. Preliminary info from people that attended the pre-re's is likewise mixed. No idea on Standard viability, as I have been out of the scene for a while. But I like the uncommons, so buying common/uncommon sets and cherry picking rare/mythic singles seems the best route for me. I like a couple of the dragons, and for casual yeah, they can all have a role somewhere, but very little outside of the most obvious rares has really knocked my socks off.

Khans was fun, and is still valuable, even though that value has gone exactly the way I figured it would - Sarkhan, Sorin, Fetches, and a handful of sub-$10 rares used in constructed. I will say I was wrong about Sorin holding top spot, though, as he has been overtaken by fetches. Wingmate and Siege Rhino are right where I thought they would be, along with Dig being a little more valuable than I estimated. But this set? Other than Ugin, Mentor, and another handful of obvious stand-outs, I'm not entirely sure how this lineup will pan out. I have a feeling that after about a month to a month and a half unless something just explodes, the list may only be around 8 cards long. This isn't Dragon's Maze bad, but it might be as weak as Dark Ascension, or close to it.

I have been away from the Magic scene for a while, but coming back to see these prices, I am shocked but I know I really shouldn't be. Between the amount of product opened and the limitations of three-color cards I suppose it was only natural. I AM somewhat surprised to see Clever Impersonator so low, but it's one of those cards I think will creep up to its high point once the set is out of rotation for a year or so. EDH/Cube will have a lot to do with that. Time to start doing some long-term speculating

Is it just me, or is it crazy a card like Sagu Mauler is considered nearly bulk material? I mean, a 6/6 for 6 with only 2 colors to devote to, with Trample and Hexproof that can also Morph and pop for just 5... I guess it just does not have a home, and UG isn't popular now, or it just cannot support a card like this? All I know is if I can scrape up some money I intend to buy some up, and so far R_E you have the best price on them from people I do business with, but even my local shop only has them at $2.50/each. I'm still looking at it and wondering when it will pop, or if it is one of those fatties that just fades into the background.

There are many factors to consider when thinking on a set's potential power, and its value. Some of these factors include...

Wedge-centric setting - allows for more tools for EDH (a favorite environment of mine) and to introduce new concepts that have only been partially touched on previously.
Set flavor - I enjoy the Mongol-Chinese setting, it's something I've personally longed for, and that will satisfy many other people who value more than just mechanics.
Quality commons/uncommons - there are a great many, and IMO that makes for a healthy set in terms of play balance and Limited environment. Uncommon wedge lands. Common Refuge lands, absolutely great move. Also great for casual markets and players, and let's not forget; casual magic is where WotC makes most of its money, not competitive constructed. Higher profile, yes. Biggest source of income? No.
Reintroduction of Onslaught Fetches - people have begged for it, and Wizards gave them up.

Morph - a caveat here: It's not strictly bad, but after the full set was spoiled I looked over the Morph offerings, and while some seemed good, most seemed... lackluster. In fact, I wonder why some of them have Morph at all, especially when it grants neither a bonus in the way of an ability upon morphing, nor a significant reduction in casting cost. There is less mystery to Morph here, fewer tricks. If someone has a morph creature out, you may not know what it is (without a card that lets you know), but you can likely predict the outcome save for a couple of creatures (like the Spellsnatcher). I have yet to see what it will do in this environment.

Weaker average rares - I have noted there are many rares that are truly "meh" here, and the value once again seems to be concentrated in the Mythics and the Fetches. I expect the Top cards to look something like this

1: Sarkhan (M)
2-6: Fetches (R Land)
7: Clever Impersonator (M)
8: Sorin (M)
9: Surrak (M)
10: Anafenza (M)
11: Wingmate Roc (M)
12: Utter End (R)
13: Butcher of the Horde (R)
14: Narset (M)
15: Savage Knuckleblade (R)
16: Sdisi (M)
17: Empty the Pits (M)
18: See the Unwritten (M)
19: Bloodsoaked Champion (R)
20: Siege Rhino (R)
21: Rattleclaw Mystic (R)

Now technically that's 11 rares of 21 cards, but 5 of those rares are fetches, and highly desirable rare lands always get the big price-tag, Mythic grade prices. The other 6 rares are all around $5-6 in my estimation, but Utter End will climb, once again giving us highly desirable rare removal (*cough*Hero's Downfall*cough), and then you have 5 rares whose existence on the list will depend upon the meta. Beyond these cards there is a gulf between the low and the high of several dollars - only End Hostilities and Dig Through Time float somewhere in the middle ($3-ish). Now being perfectly honest this all looks fairly normal, to how it has been lately, but it does again show, for me, the value is concentrated in the Mythics and chase rare lands. EDH will probably be the deciding factor of the Mythic Khans beyond any standard application, but I believe Anafenza will be desired, as will Surrak. The rest are maybes.

So far this is reminding me of Shards of Alara, which was also heavy on the Mythic value, and led to an environment where you had ***** like Mythic Bant and 5 Color Control wandering around, standard decks that could cost $750-1,000... just mind boggling for me back then (I was running GW Elfball, which did well until 5CC became dominant. Dealing with UB Faeries was bad enough... oh, also a $500 or more deck). But there was also Jund, a $250-300 deck at the time that could take all comers and was a force for a long time. Unlike Alara, KTK has a pro/con situation (Fetches - might help decks, might make them more expensive, or they may not have as much impact since they don't have Shocks to synergize with), and unlike Enemy Fetches in Zendikar which had landfall to work with, but which acts as a boon to Modern and Legacy. In standard, I'm not sure how powerful they will be. Expect the BUG fetches to be most useful if Dredge does anything at all. And then there are those higher quality commons/uncommons, which frankly Alara lacked in number. Alara had a TON of uplayable chaff, particularly at common. And when I mean unplayable, I mean kitchen-table unplayable. I've used Alara block commons and uncommons for more craft projects than I have decks. Theros wasn't even that bad. Avacyn Restored wasn't that bad. But Alara is still remembered as a great block.

And as for power level, comparing one set entering standard to another leaving standard is pointless - standard is what standard is. No more. No less. The only time this is an issue is when one set is CLEARLY inferior to its predecessor AND its current standard partner, so much so that it causes a vacuum of sorts in the meta (I'm looking at you, Kamigawa). Despite what naysayers will say, KTK is no Kamigawa - NO SET IN MODERN MAGIC WILL MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN. What I see in KTK is an attempt to reach out to as many player bases as possible - Modern/Legacy (Fetches, and hey, maybe more. Remember the lesson of Deathrite Shaman), EDH (wedge commanders, more bomby fun spells), casual players (good commons/uncommons, including land support), and Limited players (trying to balance the play to allow for what appears to be a slower format). Its mechanics are not insular, they reach across many sets, and even after it has rotated KTK cards will find homes in many decks for years to come. Raid, Outlast, Dredge, Ferocious, Prowess - whether these mechanics excite or are considered innovative, they are at least versatile enough beyond their own block to avoid the death sentence of insular mechanics.

Also, take that list above - I see that moving and shaking a lot, save for the top 6 places. Sarkhan will not budge from top spot, I don't see it. He's basically a hasty dragon that can Flame Slash or give you massive CA if you get that far. Add that he is Mythic, and so he will remain. The fetches will also likely remain, but they may jostle with Sorin and Surrak if both find footing in standard. But I see things off list that could move up, and low cards at the moment that can climb. Someone else mentioned Desecration Demon. I sang his praises from day one, most other people said it was crap. I hoarded them. In the end, I won out on that. And I can tell you now, there may be a couple Desecration Demons in this set. I'm looking forward to it.

Really then, what I'm trying to say is, don't try to compare Khans to Ravnica, or whatever other set, because those other sets are not in standard (well, RTR is for another week :P), look at it beside the other block and core set it works with, and figure it out. It looks to be a nice change of pace. And control players - calm yourselves. This happens every transition, the death of control is heralded, the creatures are out of control, woe and doom to all! A month passes, the aggro meta is set, and control finds its footing, and bam, Control takes... well... control. At any rate, does anyone REALLY want to go back to Draw/Go *****? Talk about boring. THEY ARE NEVER REPRINTING COUNTERSPELL. STOP. JUST STOP. The meta is the meta, standard is standard, and either you adapt or you sit it out. And don't complain about a lack of "POWER" cards, then later complain about power creep. You can't have it both ways. Or you end up like Yu-Gi-Oh. Does anyone want Magic to become Yu-Gi-Oh? Some might say it has, but if you do, you don't really know. Magic is still healthy, still growing, and looks to continue that way.

TL;DR You can't please everyone, so stop *****ing about the sky falling. Adapt, build, play, or don't. Look to innovate, don't expect the power to just be dropped in your lap.

EDIT: Oh, Clever Impersonator, I forgot, that one I am watching. It could climb above a less favorable Fetch, and might even vie for 2nd or 3rd in time. That is a POWERFUL clone variant...

DGM has been the most disappointing set in my memory, not only because of its inherent weakness, but the pedigree it developed from - both original and much loved Ravnica, and the glory that is still Return to Ravnica (and Gatecrash is ok), and how it just phoned it in and failed. The flavor of the set failed, the Champions were a bad joke, and then there were the quality of the cards themselves to count for. I mean... 6 cards worth opening? 6? RTR still has 25! and M14 has 21! A core set, worth that much more... just... wow.

That being said, I will still keep my eyes on a few things (Exava, for instance) for future development, but I'm not seeing any Worldwake shenanigans here yet.

Then again, who foresaw Dark Depths doing anything at all during Coldsnap? or the several sets thereafter? Who knows, maybe a Vampire Hexmage will come along one day and make something from DGM shine. But that is admittedly unlikely.

This isn't a "Death of MTG set" (as Homelands was heralded to be, and it sure chased me away from the game for some years), but it's definitely an uncouth cheek-sneak on the part of Wizards after the bounty that was RTR and the at least acceptable snack that was GTC. I guess Wizards meal didn't sit that well and they needed to let off a puffer before moving on. In essence, that is Dragon's Maze.

Quote from rancored_elf

As Voice rises, the rest of the set is falling.
Why do you think that Voice and the rest of the set will fall together?

Voice is so expensive NOT because it's as good as Tarmogoyf and JTMS, but because the rest of the set isn't very good.

Remember $20 Pithing Needle, in Saviors of Kamigawa? It wasn't because Pithing Needle is worth that much, it was because the rest of the set was almost completely worthless.

Sadly true, DGM has ended up a real donkey of a set. Oh sure, there are some fun casual things for people like me, can't complain about inexpensive fun rares there, but if you invest in a set, such as with pre-sale boxes, or buy with intent to trade, or buy with intent to sell, then this set has been almost as much of a disappointment as Dark Ascension. The only hope is that it pulls a WWK and suddenly a card printed in the NEXT block makes something beyond VoR viable (a la Stoneforge Mystic)

But in general, pretty depressing. I've stopped buying packs. Got a few good things, but the sheer amount of **** is hard to stomach when I know logically I can just buy singles. But I LIKE cracking packs, and if the set is this poor, then their sealed product sure isn't going to move. And I AM a part of the largest Magic demographic - Casual players.

Cathedral Sanctifier becomes scary, lol.

Seriously, I will make a deck with the aforementioned Tavern Swindler. Just for the sake of personal amusement. Vizkopa Guildmage as the cup bearer, Sanctifier and Swindler, Chalice of Life - I can make a standard incarnation of my favorite casual deck - 2 Girls, 1 Cup :x :b

Quote from rancored_elf

Standard demand could bring this card up to $20 and above, who knows. But one thing is clear to me - it has no long term future. Once it falls from Standard it has to compete with several superior cards. Stroke of Genius (which can also be a win condition by targeting the opponent when you have a pile of mana) doesn't require white and yet is only a $5 card, despite having a much lower supply out there. Sphinx's will drop to $2 once Standard demand wanes.

By the way, we're also discussing this card in the RTR running tally thread.

Agreed. Makes me very happy, I got one in my box and didn't foresee that I would use it, since UW isn't normally my thing, but I felt Standard would like it eventually, so it would go up. Lucky I was right, but I will say this - unless you intend to use it, when it peaks, wherever that is, maybe $20 like R_E said, then unload it, because I agree with R_E, it has no life beyond Standard. I don't see Modern wanting it, and certainly not Legacy. It will always be an EDH card, but I see it falling to $3-4. Being a Mythic will keep it from binning so low, though some Mythics do (such as Necropolis Regent, the card that keeps following me).

I was looking forward to these for a new Intro-Deck Challenge, but... they stink. The better ones, and that is "better" with "" marks, are still pretty lousy, full of vanilla crap for no good reason. There is no reason NOT to make these better, there are plenty of other good commons and uncommons so you don't have to use crap like Walking Corpse...

Intro packs should do a few things. They should be playable out of the box, balanced against their peers, show off the new mechanics associated with their colors/theme, and provide a basis for a more developed deck concept. They do not need to be expensive, they don't need shocks, but they do need to be consistent enough to teach lessons to newer players (the prime target area) while also providing value for the dollar.

Also, the promo rares are also the intro rares? Well, cools my interest there, as well.

Boros Guildgate is #231 and Crumbling Necropolis is #233 and they didn't spoil anything else that could be #232, I'm pretty sure I can guess which card is going to be in the set between those two.

Favorite card of the set. I want 4. And 100 monkeys. And after a monkey attacks, I want to play a tragic slip altered with a banana peel. #2017goals

We're only a few short years away from getting "Duel Decks: Something vs A Different Thing".

Quote from MyomightyDjinn »

I'd guess WU vs. BR. Could be way off, but from the description it sounds plausible

I'd almost venture mind is UB and might is RG

Comment Hidden

I love the "I am going to expose how little I understand about basic statistics" threads that pop up this time every set. That's all this is.
FYI - If I bought a box I would get 1 fetch and 2 Mythics... the $1-3 Mythics. I have ***** for luck.

they should be called Prekhans

"Counter target EDH spell."

lol

He had the Midas touch, but he touched it too much.

Quote from SonofaBith

I won't argue that DGM was an underwhelming set, but to compare the number of money cards in a small set (156 cards, 46 rares and mythics) to a large set, RTR (274 cards, 68 rares and mythics) and a base set, M14 (249 cards, 68 rares and mythics) is somewhat unfair to DGM.

Okay then, DM has 6 cards worth opening out of a possible 46 rares/mythics, and RTR has 25 worth opening out of a possible 68. DM's "success rate" is 13% while RTR's is nearly triple that at 37%.