Hey guys, I've built a lot of cedh recently and now I'm looking to build a couple of decks that are still powerful but better suited to some friends who prefer playing battlecruiser magic, kind of like the Unesh deck I built a while back. I've wanted to make a mono black deck for a while, with some sort of Demon/Renaminator subtheme, and have been looking at Demonlord Belzenlok for ages as a suitable and cool commander for this. Would you guys be able to help me out here? I'll post a link to a draft of the list I have.
Guile's an awesome suggestion, I overlooked that particular interaction. I'm currently trying out Memnarch as if you can guarantee he resolves he just steals the other commanders in your following turn and then there's literally nothing your opponents can do anymore.
Platinum Angel is a great suggestion! However if someone has flying chump blockers or a bigger flying commander then you can’t really kill them either (unlikely in competitive, but still ). I will definitely put it in the maybeboard. The other better options I’ve come across are Eldrazi conscription on Lavinia (provides the fastest clock), Memnarch and Lorthos the Tidebringer as they deal with your opponents’ permanents. Anyone have any ideas?
Yep, because you can only guarantee one card resolving with Angel’s Grace, the win con should not be a combo but one card that can win on its own. It’s important that it’s not a 100% lock as they can still cast their commander and/or race you with what they have on board. Something like Luminarch Ascension is great if the board is reasonably clear or you have a Glacial Chasm/Maze of Ith to protect yourself until you get the quest counters. Planeswalkers are not because they can attack them with their commander. Decree could work but you never have to cast it. Honestly the best one I can think of at this stage is just Lab Man because if you can guarantee he resolves all you have to do is wait until you deck out. It’s probably the “best” wincon but I was hoping for something a bit more thematic. It could also be weak because your opponents could just kill you by the time you deck out, so ideally a wincon that can protect itself and you. I mean generally by the time you have Pool our you’ll have random bears to block until you get your Luminarch Angel’s, but in EDH you sort of have to plan for worst-case scenario. I’m thinking a big creature with hexproof, ideally vigilance or lifelink or something to help race, would get there (hexproof is for stuff like Maze of Ith).
The biggest commanders in a reasonably competitive meta (which is probably where I would play this deck) body-wise would be probably Kess and Tasigur (Gitrog is not really a thing in my meta) so something that can outrace those somehow is ideal (pretty hard because of Commander damage, so big flying vigilance lifelinker? Hexproof/shroud is also ideal, big ask but I’m guessing there’s probably an angel/Sphinx somewhere with those kinds of abilities? Either that or I guess some creature that can generate a board state on it’s own to protect yourself, and/or built in removal. Of course, any other random I-win sorcery or enchantment works as well but I can’t think of any right now. Help?
Edit: Did some browsing. Creature wise I feel like some options are: Memnarch (take their commanders), some Eldrazi with Annihilator or some obnoxious destruction ability, probably one of the Ulamogs), Lorthos (taps their commanders and utility lands). I think Lorthos and Memnarch are better options as they directly deal with problematic commanders and lands as soon as you untap with them. If you’re wanting more thematic I suppose Avacyn also works but it can be Mazed so you still need other creatures to get through.
Ok, to clear up any confusion, Angel’s Grace doesn’t stop the spell from being countered because Knowledge Pool and Lavinia already prevents anyone from actually resolving anything. What it does is guarantee that you are the one casting your win con from the Pool (I.e. the spell will enter the stack under your control). Otherwise your opponent could respond with an instant (any instant) to cast your win con from the Pool, at which point Lavinia counters it and it goes into the graveyard, which means nobody wins basically until people deck out unless you do something. There are still ways out of the lock, namely commanders that can kill Lavinia like Breya, or ones that make a boardstate on their own like Omnath, and as such holding up interaction for those is very important.
I just realised an uncounterable wincon is unnecessary with Angel’s Grace as once it’s on the stack opponents have no way of actually resolving a counterspell. I’m dumb. In that case, one-card wincon suggestions that could be protected with Angel’s Grace are great.
No, when you cast Angel’s Grace the Knowledge Pool trigger and it’s split second trigger go on the stack, so you can stack them by letting the Knowledge Pool trigger resolve first. They can’t do anything until the Knowledge Pool trigger resolves. This thread explains it better than me.
So they can respond once Angel’s grace is off the stack, but whatever was cast out of the Pool is already on the stack, so they have to cast a counterspell and then another instant to stop it, but you can respond to the instant with another instant and so on. If there’s another better solution for guaranteeing they don’t send your wincon to the grave I’m all ears, as this only guarantees you have control of the spell, not if it resolves.
As a side note, I might try to find a space for grand Abolisher as he guarentees they can’t do anything if he comes down before Pool resolves.
Edit: Just had an idea, what about a wincon that explicitly says can't be countered? Like Nezahal or Sphinx of the Final word? Either one is guaranteed to be put on the stack on your side with Angel's Grace and once they're out in a CEDH meta where everyone's commanders are like 2/3s pretty sure everyone will just get beaten to death in like 15 turns. Of course this fares slightly worse in a battlecruiser meta but at that point if Knowledge Pool resolves winning is just a formality anyway.
Crucible is in the deck, which helps with Strip Mine and the like. Angel’s Grace helps because once your win condition is exiled in the Knowledge Pool you can cast Angel’s Grace in response to any instants they have to ensure your trigger is the one that gets to cast your win con. If they get to cast it it goes in the graveyard which doesn’t help them but stops you from winning with whatever card. Tbh I’d probably rather Angel’s Grace than the land plan as it’s more deterministic, like you said Strip mining stops dark depths.
Our meta has a whole mix of playgroups, I intend to play this against other tier 1.5 decks so it should be OK.
One potential pitfall I noted when playing the deck is once Knowledge Pool lock is established opponents can save up instants and cast them when your wincon is on the Pool and even with the Knowledge Pool trigger on the stack. Two solutions to this are playing win cons that can be dropped before Pool (Serra Ascendant and Luminarch Ascension) or to give Angel’s Grace a slot so you cast it once your win con is in the pool to guarantee it resolves. Experimenting with Angel’s Grace right now (I think it’s the cheapest split second spell). The deck really doesn’t have a lot of stax pieces now, which I think is a wise choice as many tax effects nonbo with Lavinia. It’s more MLD control into Knowledge Pool and I cut out a lot of the win-more stuff like Dream Halls at the suggestion of an experienced CEDH friend. I’m quite happy so far and looking to test it today with proxies, but open to more suggestions of course. Team effort guys
I’ve included my draft decklist for feedback. It can go for an early combo win with the right draw but otherwise falls on a grindy game with MLD (as Lavinia makes mana rocks largely useless). Right now there’s some stuff in there I feel is iffy that I may be able to cut for more consistency. Notably Dramatic Scepter is there just because it’s a blue deck and I’m thinking of cutting them for extra rocks or artifact stax pieces/hatebears. Also not sure on Grand Arbiter as it can be a bit of a nonbo with Lavinia.
One aspect of the deck I’m concerned with is the relative lack of card advantage for a grindy control deck. Right now I’ve got Pull, Stroke, some cantrips, Dig and Treasure Cruise and they’re all one shots. The closest I have to an engine is Consecrated Sphinx. Does anyone have any ideas in this department, particularly draw engines?
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I am gonna put MLD into the deck, but that said I still need ways to definitively close out the game as people in my group sometimes won’t scoop to locks. I like Luminarch Ascension, and it’s not even a dead card outside of winning through lockdown. Knowledge Pool and Omen Machine lock is probably also fine. What do you guys think of Entreat the Angels?
Hey guys, after seeing the Ravnica spoilers I’m probably gonna make a deck with Lavinia (aka Teeg 2.0) as the commander, for high-powered casual tables (I still think she might not cut it as a true cedh commander due to colour identity issues etc, but that’s a whole other discussion). I’m brewing right now and probably gonna make it control/pillowforty rather than stax as a fair few stax pieces can be nonbos with her second ability. I’m running into a bit of trouble with wincons, so far I have Knowledge Pool, Omen Machine, Luminarch Ascension and (maybe) Approach of the Second Sun.
Considering Eye of the Storm but it seems redundant with both Pool and Omen Machine. I kind of want to steer away from generic Dramatic Scepter/Paradox Engine wins as I already have decks that do that and it’s a bit mean even for 75% imo. Any suggestions guys?
The issue I have with equipment in this deck (and most decks) it that it requires a lot of setup (play, equip, attack, go through) and thus many opportunities for interaction by opponents, so for me an equipment has to function as an actual win condition or generate substantial value (e.g. Skullclamp, the Swords) for me to consider. Not saying they aren't great suggestions, but there just isn't enough room in my list at this point and I'd have to be taking out another great cards to make room as I think I've tuned out most of the suspect cards by this point. That said, if anyone else has suggestions for cards in the list that don't seem great, please let me know and I'd happily share my experiences.
I've actually had Clever Impersonator clone a Windreader Sphinx before my attack step to draw like 10 cards or something, which set me up to close out a game, whereas cloning Unesh at that point would have netted me 5 cards max. Sakashima is a great clone, but my copy is already in another deck, and it's not a great deal better than any other clone in this particular deck, so I don't really feel the need to pick up another copy. Really loving the deck so far, it's hilarious when opponents deal with a lab man or aetherflux when I'm storming off, think they're safe, and then realise I can just one shot people with 10 sphinxes next turn, unlike other storm players who kind of sit there awkwardly for a few turns trying to build up their hand. I haven't had the chance to do so yet, but I'm imagine finishing up with a Temporal Trespass for 3 would be icing on the cake. Of course, control/combo players are the first to go I have more than half the deck unproxied now, it's actually really cheap to build, only expensive stuff is Dream Halls and the more broken mana rocks. Having your whole land base cost 20 bucks is also a welcome change from most other commander decks, I'd really recommend this deck to someone who needs to build on a budget as even with generic two-three drop mana rocks I think I'd still go off almost as quickly.
Mind over matter was originally in the deck but I’m not too fond of having combo pieces that aren’t that useful by themselves, especially in a deck with limited tutor ability. Same reason I’ll probably opt out of the Intruder Alarm stuff, that is an interesting combo though that maybe I can use in a future deck.
A couple more games at my LGS, Crystal shard and Paradox Engine let me fact or fiction my whole deck by bouncing and replaying a sphinx, which felt pretty great. In another game I drew it without having Paradox engine, and used it as a backup in case I ran out of sphinxes when going off. Ended up using Empyrial Plate to kill two players with Unesh, but got board wiped after by my mate playing Dralnu after losing a counter war and didnt manage to recover before he was able to Doomsday for the win. In both games, it was definitely higher impact than Basalt Monolith would have been, so I’m quite happy with the switch. One advantage of playing this deck is you get to see most of your deck every game if you don’t get hated out, which makes it great to playtest for consistency.
High Tide is quite underwhelming, the most use I’ve gotten out of it is as one turn ramp to let me get Unesh out with 4 islands, every other game I saw it I’m pretty sure I just discarded it. I think I’ll add in Phantasmal Image, he costs 2 and nets two Unesh triggers, which is just awesome.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-07-19-demon-lord/
The biggest commanders in a reasonably competitive meta (which is probably where I would play this deck) body-wise would be probably Kess and Tasigur (Gitrog is not really a thing in my meta) so something that can outrace those somehow is ideal (pretty hard because of Commander damage, so big flying vigilance lifelinker? Hexproof/shroud is also ideal, big ask but I’m guessing there’s probably an angel/Sphinx somewhere with those kinds of abilities? Either that or I guess some creature that can generate a board state on it’s own to protect yourself, and/or built in removal. Of course, any other random I-win sorcery or enchantment works as well but I can’t think of any right now. Help?
Edit: Did some browsing. Creature wise I feel like some options are: Memnarch (take their commanders), some Eldrazi with Annihilator or some obnoxious destruction ability, probably one of the Ulamogs), Lorthos (taps their commanders and utility lands). I think Lorthos and Memnarch are better options as they directly deal with problematic commanders and lands as soon as you untap with them. If you’re wanting more thematic I suppose Avacyn also works but it can be Mazed so you still need other creatures to get through.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/291456-knowledge-pool-split-second
So they can respond once Angel’s grace is off the stack, but whatever was cast out of the Pool is already on the stack, so they have to cast a counterspell and then another instant to stop it, but you can respond to the instant with another instant and so on. If there’s another better solution for guaranteeing they don’t send your wincon to the grave I’m all ears, as this only guarantees you have control of the spell, not if it resolves.
As a side note, I might try to find a space for grand Abolisher as he guarentees they can’t do anything if he comes down before Pool resolves.
Edit: Just had an idea, what about a wincon that explicitly says can't be countered? Like Nezahal or Sphinx of the Final word? Either one is guaranteed to be put on the stack on your side with Angel's Grace and once they're out in a CEDH meta where everyone's commanders are like 2/3s pretty sure everyone will just get beaten to death in like 15 turns. Of course this fares slightly worse in a battlecruiser meta but at that point if Knowledge Pool resolves winning is just a formality anyway.
One potential pitfall I noted when playing the deck is once Knowledge Pool lock is established opponents can save up instants and cast them when your wincon is on the Pool and even with the Knowledge Pool trigger on the stack. Two solutions to this are playing win cons that can be dropped before Pool (Serra Ascendant and Luminarch Ascension) or to give Angel’s Grace a slot so you cast it once your win con is in the pool to guarantee it resolves. Experimenting with Angel’s Grace right now (I think it’s the cheapest split second spell). The deck really doesn’t have a lot of stax pieces now, which I think is a wise choice as many tax effects nonbo with Lavinia. It’s more MLD control into Knowledge Pool and I cut out a lot of the win-more stuff like Dream Halls at the suggestion of an experienced CEDH friend. I’m quite happy so far and looking to test it today with proxies, but open to more suggestions of course. Team effort guys
I’ve included my draft decklist for feedback. It can go for an early combo win with the right draw but otherwise falls on a grindy game with MLD (as Lavinia makes mana rocks largely useless). Right now there’s some stuff in there I feel is iffy that I may be able to cut for more consistency. Notably Dramatic Scepter is there just because it’s a blue deck and I’m thinking of cutting them for extra rocks or artifact stax pieces/hatebears. Also not sure on Grand Arbiter as it can be a bit of a nonbo with Lavinia.
One aspect of the deck I’m concerned with is the relative lack of card advantage for a grindy control deck. Right now I’ve got Pull, Stroke, some cantrips, Dig and Treasure Cruise and they’re all one shots. The closest I have to an engine is Consecrated Sphinx. Does anyone have any ideas in this department, particularly draw engines?
Considering Eye of the Storm but it seems redundant with both Pool and Omen Machine. I kind of want to steer away from generic Dramatic Scepter/Paradox Engine wins as I already have decks that do that and it’s a bit mean even for 75% imo. Any suggestions guys?
I've actually had Clever Impersonator clone a Windreader Sphinx before my attack step to draw like 10 cards or something, which set me up to close out a game, whereas cloning Unesh at that point would have netted me 5 cards max. Sakashima is a great clone, but my copy is already in another deck, and it's not a great deal better than any other clone in this particular deck, so I don't really feel the need to pick up another copy. Really loving the deck so far, it's hilarious when opponents deal with a lab man or aetherflux when I'm storming off, think they're safe, and then realise I can just one shot people with 10 sphinxes next turn, unlike other storm players who kind of sit there awkwardly for a few turns trying to build up their hand. I haven't had the chance to do so yet, but I'm imagine finishing up with a Temporal Trespass for 3 would be icing on the cake. Of course, control/combo players are the first to go
A couple more games at my LGS, Crystal shard and Paradox Engine let me fact or fiction my whole deck by bouncing and replaying a sphinx, which felt pretty great. In another game I drew it without having Paradox engine, and used it as a backup in case I ran out of sphinxes when going off. Ended up using Empyrial Plate to kill two players with Unesh, but got board wiped after by my mate playing Dralnu after losing a counter war and didnt manage to recover before he was able to Doomsday for the win. In both games, it was definitely higher impact than Basalt Monolith would have been, so I’m quite happy with the switch. One advantage of playing this deck is you get to see most of your deck every game if you don’t get hated out, which makes it great to playtest for consistency.
High Tide is quite underwhelming, the most use I’ve gotten out of it is as one turn ramp to let me get Unesh out with 4 islands, every other game I saw it I’m pretty sure I just discarded it. I think I’ll add in Phantasmal Image, he costs 2 and nets two Unesh triggers, which is just awesome.