i've gone even more aggressive in the meantime and swapped Logic Knot for Tasigurs. Its working extremely well so far. until Kess was spoiled, i was running a pyromancer build with a lot of counterspells, a tempo list essentially. and i had a win % of 62% over 420 matches, which is quite satisfying.
BUT: this list feels much more powerful and consistent than the old one. we'll have to see how much modern's power level rises post horizon overall, but this is a better deck for sure. it feels very consistent, and disgustingly powerful at times.
Kess has been an absolute bomb with this kind of discard-heavy shell. I'm not sure about everything yet, but its been performing great overall. Pyromancer works incredibly well with Kess. One important thing I've found is that she is a quite aggressive card. You want to recast discard most of the time and keep opps game down while beating down with her. Let me know what you think
the thing about black pact though is if you draw it late its dead and does nothing. if humans establishes a huge board by turn 4 and you draw it t5 instead of Damnation you're toast.
Playing Tasigur in a list with 0 cantrips in it seems very risky. 1of seems maximum. these types of blue jund lists proposed churn through very few cards.
Tasigur also just becomes a much worse card with Scour missing. tapping 3mana for him is unimpressive. tasigur is good on turn 2, or e.g. on turn 5 with cryptic up and similar. tapping out for tasigur on turn 3 is a loosing play in many matchups. too little too slow.
i actually like the idea a lot! discard restricts number of cards in game, so the board will be relatively empty.
and then overload on "Sacrifice creature" effect so that the huge downside of not targeting becomes irrelevant. in other words: snipe the easy targets with bolt/push discard and then leverage the strict superiority of sacrificing in terms of what the effect can hit (etched champion, ulamog, thrun, bogles, etc).
no idea if it works, but i get the idea, and i kinda like it. it tries to leverage the potential insanity/versatility of liliana's triumpf and rampage.
edit: imagine how disgusting lily's triumpf can be solid 2f1 for 2cmc at instant speed. getting to resolve triumph with lily on board must be game-winning against most decks.
i think this card is super interesting. brainstorm:
against LD decks (targeting acid moss must be fun). in counter wars, its basically a counterspell + remand for uu which is insane. remanding trophy/pulse vs gbx to kill their lily/goyf etc. and dont get me started on targeting larger spells.
cryptic. cathartic reunion (lol!!!), past in flames, gifts ungiven etc etc
This is what I've come up with after a few test drives with raw piles. Started out with Rise/Fall in there too, but too much sorcery speed is hard to handle. 4 Dispel is just a placeholder for some more nuanced choices
Note: 1x Faithless Looting comes at almost no cost and is great at cleaning up our draws later in the game.
i guess the easiest answer to that question would be that you dont have to tank your life total to make the deck work.
GDS trades life total for tempo and pure card quality and an incredibly low curve, meaning less "air" in lands. it functions through strong, overarching synergies.
the question is wether there's a list out there thats primarily black, discard-centered, and top out with new Bolas without being a) worse GDS or b) worse BGx.
I imagine it might be somewhat close to God's_Shadow's list because baby-jace is great with discard (and a generally more sorcery-speed-centered game plan).
I posted this several months ago when I started it (last summer), and I'm thinking now is a good time to give an update on my little spreadsheet. I won't go into the results themselves, i think they're pretty self-explanatory, a few words on the quality of the recorded matches: most of them are paper, but there are Cockatrice matches in there too. I know a lot of pple look down on that (understandably). So this is NOT a representative spreadsheet for high-level pro events. Its just a personal pointer for me to place my list in the metagame, record sideboard plans and optimize from there, which is why I prefer sample size over sample quality.
One important thing: this spreadsheet operates inside its own sample-metagame, which is why decks like Izzet Phoenix or Dredge have hardly caught on, I simply havent faced them (I took a break the last 3 months, so pretty much the time Izzet Phoenix became a thing). The advantage is that I always know the context of my win-loss rate, the downside is it doesn't really translate to the "real" metagame online and at pro events.
My main take-aways:
1) Spreadsheets like this are extremely helpful to optimize precise sideboarding and also to save time when you dont know every sb plan by heart.
2) It gives a really good sense where the deck is at in the meta, so you're not testing around in the dark.
3) Its extremely hard to get a sample large enough to be statistically meaningful for individual matchups. Which is why evaluating individual matchups should be primarily tied to personal experience with navigating them. The numbers only serve to paint a larger picture.
4) It does give a nice sense what kind of deck in broad terms my list is struggeling against, and where it is stronger.
Hope this is of interest to some of you
PS: If anybody has similar data on their testing, pls do share it
PPS: Link to the deck list is on top of the spread sheet!
Because of Dovins Veto, do y'all think remand deserves a spot in the main board?
why would Veto make Remand better? (if you think it works on veto because it returns, that, alas, isnt how it works ;). "return to hand" is a replacement effect for "counter target spell")
some pple are saying that Dovin's Veto's white requirement is a real issue in UW since its mana base is stretched thin on a ton of basics, utility lands and heavy blue requirements, and in that respect Veto is actually strictly worse than Negate. there's only a handful of matchups where "uncounterable" is relevant (blue control mirrors, temur scapeshift, Ux Living End). in every matchup where white is the important color (white removal for aggro, white graveyardhate, etc).
the power difference is smaller, but Negate vs Countersquall isn't a done deal either.
but as a sideboard card... looking over current list, it'll be 2 Vetos minimum post board, which is... scary
another thing to consider is the possible reprint of a) Counterspell and b) Baleful Strix. that should shake things up a fair bit
Dovin's Veto is another slap in the face unfortately. a complete, huge, slap. Sure, give the tier 1 control deck ANOTHER overpowered toy.
i'm so pissed.
i cant really tell how large the impact will be, but Veto will loose us a lot of games to UW/Jeskai Control, both of which were fantastic matchups until now. this is very very bad news.
i fear bolas restrictive mana cost will make him unplayable alongside cryptic. it'll have to be a predominantly black list. Straight Grixis midrange probably.
Damn would it kill them to support UB for friggin ONCE.
Edit: i can see bolas working in a very discard-heavy shell. curve inquisition into Rise/Fall into lily/kcommand etc? maybe.
the problem is the ONLY thing that makes 5cmc teferi playable is its tacked-on unttap ability which makes it cost 3cmc the turn it is cast and nets a huge amount of mana over time. bolas will likely choke on that front and die horribly in a format too fast for him.
eff me, that casting cost is just so ridiculous. its stupid. just retarded
BUT: this list feels much more powerful and consistent than the old one. we'll have to see how much modern's power level rises post horizon overall, but this is a better deck for sure. it feels very consistent, and disgustingly powerful at times.
2 Kess, Dissident Mage
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Tasigur, the golden Fang
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
Sorceries (10)
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Instants (15)
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Fatal Push
1 Bedevil
1 Countersquall
2 Thought Scour
4 Pollutede Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Cypt
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Countersquall
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kess, Dissident Mage
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
Sorceries (10)
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Instants (17)
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Fatal Push
1 Bedevil
2 Logic Knot
1 Countersquall
2 Thought Scour
4 Pollutede Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Cypt
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Field of Ruin
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Countersquall
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Anger of the Gods
Kess has been an absolute bomb with this kind of discard-heavy shell. I'm not sure about everything yet, but its been performing great overall. Pyromancer works incredibly well with Kess. One important thing I've found is that she is a quite aggressive card. You want to recast discard most of the time and keep opps game down while beating down with her. Let me know what you think
Tasigur also just becomes a much worse card with Scour missing. tapping 3mana for him is unimpressive. tasigur is good on turn 2, or e.g. on turn 5 with cryptic up and similar. tapping out for tasigur on turn 3 is a loosing play in many matchups. too little too slow.
and then overload on "Sacrifice creature" effect so that the huge downside of not targeting becomes irrelevant. in other words: snipe the easy targets with bolt/push discard and then leverage the strict superiority of sacrificing in terms of what the effect can hit (etched champion, ulamog, thrun, bogles, etc).
no idea if it works, but i get the idea, and i kinda like it. it tries to leverage the potential insanity/versatility of liliana's triumpf and rampage.
edit: imagine how disgusting lily's triumpf can be solid 2f1 for 2cmc at instant speed. getting to resolve triumph with lily on board must be game-winning against most decks.
the question is wether it comes up often enough
i think this card is super interesting. brainstorm:
against LD decks (targeting acid moss must be fun). in counter wars, its basically a counterspell + remand for uu which is insane. remanding trophy/pulse vs gbx to kill their lily/goyf etc. and dont get me started on targeting larger spells.
cryptic. cathartic reunion (lol!!!), past in flames, gifts ungiven etc etc
this has real potential in my opinion
1x Tasigur, the golden Fang
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
Instants (16)
1x Countersquall
2x Fatal Push
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Logic Knot
2x Opt
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Terminate
Sorcery (10)
1x Collective Brutality
1x Faithless Looting
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Dragonskull SUmmit
1x Drowned Catacomb
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
1x Steam Vents
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
4x Dispel
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
This is what I've come up with after a few test drives with raw piles. Started out with Rise/Fall in there too, but too much sorcery speed is hard to handle. 4 Dispel is just a placeholder for some more nuanced choices
Note: 1x Faithless Looting comes at almost no cost and is great at cleaning up our draws later in the game.
GDS trades life total for tempo and pure card quality and an incredibly low curve, meaning less "air" in lands. it functions through strong, overarching synergies.
the question is wether there's a list out there thats primarily black, discard-centered, and top out with new Bolas without being a) worse GDS or b) worse BGx.
I imagine it might be somewhat close to God's_Shadow's list because baby-jace is great with discard (and a generally more sorcery-speed-centered game plan).
so:
2-3x baby-jace
2x LotV
2x Bolas
4x Snap
3x KCommand
1-2x Rise/Fall
4-6x 1cmc discard
4x bolt
4push/terminate
and so on. maybe
I posted this several months ago when I started it (last summer), and I'm thinking now is a good time to give an update on my little spreadsheet. I won't go into the results themselves, i think they're pretty self-explanatory, a few words on the quality of the recorded matches: most of them are paper, but there are Cockatrice matches in there too. I know a lot of pple look down on that (understandably). So this is NOT a representative spreadsheet for high-level pro events. Its just a personal pointer for me to place my list in the metagame, record sideboard plans and optimize from there, which is why I prefer sample size over sample quality.
One important thing: this spreadsheet operates inside its own sample-metagame, which is why decks like Izzet Phoenix or Dredge have hardly caught on, I simply havent faced them (I took a break the last 3 months, so pretty much the time Izzet Phoenix became a thing). The advantage is that I always know the context of my win-loss rate, the downside is it doesn't really translate to the "real" metagame online and at pro events.
My main take-aways:
1) Spreadsheets like this are extremely helpful to optimize precise sideboarding and also to save time when you dont know every sb plan by heart.
2) It gives a really good sense where the deck is at in the meta, so you're not testing around in the dark.
3) Its extremely hard to get a sample large enough to be statistically meaningful for individual matchups. Which is why evaluating individual matchups should be primarily tied to personal experience with navigating them. The numbers only serve to paint a larger picture.
4) It does give a nice sense what kind of deck in broad terms my list is struggeling against, and where it is stronger.
Hope this is of interest to some of you
PS: If anybody has similar data on their testing, pls do share it
PPS: Link to the deck list is on top of the spread sheet!
why would Veto make Remand better? (if you think it works on veto because it returns, that, alas, isnt how it works ;). "return to hand" is a replacement effect for "counter target spell")
the power difference is smaller, but Negate vs Countersquall isn't a done deal either.
but as a sideboard card... looking over current list, it'll be 2 Vetos minimum post board, which is... scary
another thing to consider is the possible reprint of a) Counterspell and b) Baleful Strix. that should shake things up a fair bit
i'm so pissed.
i cant really tell how large the impact will be, but Veto will loose us a lot of games to UW/Jeskai Control, both of which were fantastic matchups until now. this is very very bad news.
i fear bolas restrictive mana cost will make him unplayable alongside cryptic. it'll have to be a predominantly black list. Straight Grixis midrange probably.
Damn would it kill them to support UB for friggin ONCE.
Edit: i can see bolas working in a very discard-heavy shell. curve inquisition into Rise/Fall into lily/kcommand etc? maybe.
the problem is the ONLY thing that makes 5cmc teferi playable is its tacked-on unttap ability which makes it cost 3cmc the turn it is cast and nets a huge amount of mana over time. bolas will likely choke on that front and die horribly in a format too fast for him.
eff me, that casting cost is just so ridiculous. its stupid. just retarded