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  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    @Grr
    @Mind
    @Tubba

    I'm probably shooting one of you tonight, change my mind
    Oh, interesting. The obvious best move is to shoot not-me, but I'm the only one who knows that.

    So maybe you do shoot me. I need to re-read a bit still (my son was sick all night so I didn't get to anything yesterday), but I might be the best kill... man I hate to say that. It probably gets Tom to hunt actual scum, and maybe gives a better read on ETR/Tau/Kami/D_V when I flip. Let me think about this more.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from tomsloger »
    So, mindreaver
    Quote from M1ndreaver »

    Quote from tomsloger »
    Not sure what to make of last walling this early.

    Hes prolly a PR worried about looking bad and tryharding. If i were scum id kill him early
    @mafia
    this is super gross. Unvote, Vote Tom #riprvs

    I really don't like the follow up convo with whisper either. But I do appreciate getting the Rhand and Grape defenses, that will make PoE easier down the line.
    sure whatever. This could be town mindreaver either actually finding this scummy because hes forgotten me completely, or wanting to pressure me because... hes forgotten me completely. Lol.
    Thats not scummy from me (or in general) and pressuring me doesnt do *****. But whatever its possible...
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    Quote from tomsloger »
    I mean, the option that goes along with him not believing it is just saying stuff to go with blustery confidence im scum so you should wait to see if he just keeps pushing me and looking for connections or is actually thinking things through

    But now you have to watch how he reacts to being called out too so that should be fun
    Jesus Tom. You're spilling all the beans.

    I count probably 8 or 9 people in this thread that I know, that know Tom well enough, to know that we aren't gonna get a good read on him in the first few pages, even when he does something ridiculously scummy. Fair enough?

    So is it necessary to actually say that in thread?

    Now, the only two people who spoke up about that fact, when Tom did his PR-fishing (which wasn't helpful, especially because the follow up made it super obvious he found one (or did he? Or does LW want scum to think so? WIFOM fo dayz)) were Grape and Rhand.

    So in the worlds where I see Tom is scum, doing some kind of weirdo gambit (which to be fair is in his wheelhouse), I don't see Rhand proclaiming him town and also being a scumbuddy. I think that we would see buddies distancing themselves from something like that, which makes Grape's defense a little harder to swallow (he's probably town, BUT TWO RED FLAGS). That's a fence sit if I've ever seen one. Combined with his opportunistic 4th vote on LW, to keep that wagon rolling, doesn't look good.

    In the world where Tom is town and is just being Tom, Rhand's read is probably not alignment indicative either way. Scum could be buddying, or town could just be not "reading tom at level 0". Grape's comment still looks gross. Like "here is a little shade for tom, who is probably town"? I don't think that comes from town mindset. Like, I just don't see how it's helpful to state that.

    Anyway, my take-away at the moment was I don't like Grape.

    So my question for Grape is, when will you share what these red flags are? Can it be now?
    but hey look at that it was neither of those things. He clearly realized he cant get away with that read, and it wasnt pressure for pressures sake or he doesnt give it up that early.
    So lets transition that awkwardly into jumping on the growing grape wagon, while lightly leaking that hes paying attention to my rolehunting in a professional capacity.

    Then he pops back in after the grape wagon got even bigger because rhand meta, and... doesnt even comment on grape who he thinks is scum only mentions it in passing while vaguely attacking wisp eho he thinks is town PR

    Then in response to tau/etr
    "In any case, ETR and Tau can't both be telling the truth right now."
    Which... a) i think is second most likely and b) has a ton of scum motivation in several possible combinations

    I guess this is where i note that i kinda like his read on kami, and they're not super likely partners

    But i absolutely hate
    Quote from M1ndreaver »

    Rhand - I had you higher as a townread, but I don't quite know what D_V's attack on your signifies. Gut feel was scum busing.
    <snip>
    D_V - Your entrance was a vast improvement in the slot, but I have to say "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation. Instead of taking on Tau/ETR with your own opinions, you're telling us about all the other games and gambits and other people's opinions. That doesn't ring true for me.
    these two reads taken together is just pure agenda

    This is still most likely scum itg
    What I was looking for from you, is a response to... some earlier post I'm too lazy to find, where your entire Mind/Grape tunnel BS read exploded a few pages ago when KJ "confirmed" town Grape. Any thoughts there? Or is the Rhand read that Whisper already pointed out, and my play from page 3, the only things you're basing this on?

    Let me ask you this. Do you believe I thought that Grape wagon was going to go the distance? Why do you think I engaged you and Whisper early specifically?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from D_V »
    Mindreaver.

    Half of my posts were about that?

    I have 2 out of 20 posts where I talked about that.

    No, you used it to muddy the waters. Half the posts were about a game you played with Tom, neutrals winning with scum, and how TOM would behave in a similar situation, and how Sir Chris felt about it. I'm happy to re-read, but all that extra stuff is just so much fluff. It literally doesn't matter when you and tom did in another game. Show me what ETR or Tau would do; or examples where they've run a gambit; those would be relevant.

    I've shown this clearly, and you CLEARLY have no read anything I've written. My iso clearly shows independent thought and analysis, if you had taken any care before you shot of this response you would have seen this. But you didn't. Now I don't know if this is your old age catching up with you or if you're just rusty.

    Also, to answer your second question.
    A more productive question for you is probably: Why don't we have to solve Tau/ETR? What makes killing Rhand better?


    I'm not going to prove a negative. And you're a bastard for trying to argue that way. You are saying that we should solve Etr/Tau. I'm asking why? You're response of "Why not" is a bastard response and you clearly have no interest in developing this reason.

    We should kill Rhand, because Rhand is scum. But more importantly we should lynch you, because you're clearly scum or have gotten terrible with your absence.

    Unvote Vote Mindreaver
    Ugh, fine I'll put in the work to actually quote you in a little bit, and use that to prove my point. And dodging my question is ridiculous dude. I answered why. It gives us the most info on my top scumspects, That's why. Maybe I rambled a bit more than was needed, but there it is. Now why do you believe it's something that can just wait for? Do you think scum kills one of them and solves this for us? Because that would surprise the hell out of me. I mean maybe we can rolecop them; I don't want to know if that's a possibility. Maybe we can figure things out based on their votes eventually? That potentially leaves us with even more headaches (what does it mean if they vote together? etc.

    I don't see any way for ETR or Tau to prove that they are town to me over time. Scum!them knows that's the play now. I don't know it that's outside the wheelhouse for either of them.

    Finally, I was always terrible Smile
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    Quote from M1ndreaver »

    Kami - I explained this already, but he's so focused on Tau being town and ETR being scum, and "winning the game on day one" that it screams of inside knowledge. Even disregarding the facts that the team he says he's 90% sure of, can't possibly be the right team (from his perspective).
    What? Why can't that team be the right team?
    well for one, I'm town, so that's one reason, another would be that I believe tom is town, Rhand is starting to go down on the tier list
    Mindreaver said that from my perspective it couldn't possibly be the right team and I don't see why that would be.
    I already posted it:
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    @Kami - (devil's advocate time) How does your view change, if ETR meant to signal that the scum team was: You/Tubba/ETR/Tau and not ETR/Tau/Tom/Whisper/Rhand?
    I don't think this question makes sense, as there's nothing that could happen in game that would tell me what someone's intent was. A better question would be, what would happen if one of the flips doesn't happen as expected; that's a hypothetical that would have an observable effect.

    If EtR flips town, I reevaluate. Tau looks quite bad - if I had zero additional info and had to decide the next kill from there, I'd say Tau.
    If EtR flips scum, and then we go on to kill one of the people on the list, and that person flips town, that's also reevaluation, but likely means Tau is still clear. I think we'd have to fall back to standard behavioral analysis of the rest of the players - I'd be tempted to play the "why did EtR put together that specific false list" game but that would be difficult.
    I am asking this, because your reads in this situation were "tonal" (fake) scum reads of the Rhand/Whisper/Tom team, and I wanted to see if you'd respond with actual reads on any of the people in the other group.

    I was also looking for the obvious answer that the You/Tau/ETR/Tubba group can't exist, based on your world view. If ETR is scum, Tau can't be. He just made the one-in-a-million play, in your mind, and won the game for town day one. You said that is 80-90% certain for you. Also, YOU'RE INCLUDED IN THIS SCUM GROUP.

    Instead you just went and enumerated the possibilities again, which we're hashed to death. THat means you're not trying to solve, and that means you're scum.

    I think the best move is still lynch ETR today, I'll be happy to let Tau prove his new ability, and you start tomorrow as suspect #1 regardless of ETR's flip.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    Quote from Mind »

    Again, my opinion of this game right now, is that we need to resolve the ETR/Tau situation. My concern is that even if I had my #1 choice (Kami) dead today, I think the mafia just kills somebody in GJ/D_V/Vaimes/Rod/LnGrrR/Tubba; and we have to rehash all the same arguments tomorrow. I would rather analyze results from ETR's flip tomorrow. And yes, I do think ETR is more likely scum than Tau.
    that statement in the middle about who mafia would kill just kinda pings me as well, why would we have to rehash all the arguments, and why did GJ get added in there? Also why those 6 anyways? And again, flipping someone is not the only way to analysis them, it's just poor and scummy play, to say, "I'd rather not Lynch him today, but rather tomorrow" now if you think about it this way, "I'd rather not Lynch him today, because he's an easy mislynch tomorrow", would that not ping you, without or without mislynch added in there, it still just feels like that...
    GJ is in there because that slot hasn't posted once. So it gives us nothing tomorrow that we don't have today. Same with D_V, and to a lesser extent the rest. I mean we could get lucky and they'll kill you, and then we'll have all kinds of interactions.

    Also, I'm not saying I don't want to lynch Kami right now. If I'm completely candid about it, I doubt we get him today. I don't have the town credentials to push the case (which is my own fault). I think the better play is to resolve ETR. That gives us more to work with tomorrow. And I think we'd re-hash it to death. Just look at how many people did the WW >> VW >> VV >> WV charts. Like, I get that we're all on a mission to show our thoughts, but it's just gonna go on and on and on. If GJ doesn't come in with the same block of text, I'll eat my hat.

    I can see where it looks like I'm setting up mislynches. That wasn't my intent, but that's wine. I guess if we have kami flip town you guys can just kill me next.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from D_V »
    I hate how mindreaver is pushing that we need to solve the ETR/Tau thing.

    No, no we don't. Its also clear he didn't read diddly squat of what I read, because I've argued a lot more then what he said I did. I used the opinion of Sir Chris and the "Remember when" as supplemental material.

    No, you used it to muddy the waters. Half the posts were about a game you played with Tom, neutrals winning with scum, and how TOM would behave in a similar situation, and how Sir Chris felt about it. I'm happy to re-read, but all that extra stuff is just so much fluff. It literally doesn't matter when you and tom did in another game. Show me what ETR or Tau would do; or examples where they've run a gambit; those would be relevant.

    A more productive question for you is probably: Why don't we have to solve Tau/ETR? What makes killing Rhand better?

    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    @Mindreaver
    I wish I could upvote your kami read


    "Both of you lied"

    In either your read on Tau or ETR you said, can you expand on that?

    Though I really dislike how you somehow

    I hate how you used DV in your thoughts on Rhand

    I'm also interested in your thoughts on Grr, just because I think he's being typical scum, pop in, just echos, no real stances, just calls the focus on me bad, which is just pure shade, don't know if that was his intention, but that's how it came off to me


    Tau self-admitted to lying (deceiving) ETR that he's scum. It's the first thing he did. If I consider that he's really scum trying to trick ETR into incriminating himself so he can spew to the thread what he found, that also would be a lie.

    ETR also self-admitted to lying in his response. In the scenarios that he's scum, I don't think he's stupid enough to fall for this, and spew the whole team. In scenarios where he's town, he lied about being scum and what the team was.

    So neither been truthful, and if they both end up town here; both are to blame.

    As for my Rhand read, D_V replacing in and immediately going after Rhand seemed... strange to me. At this point, it's unlikely that a Rhand wagon gets any traction, so scum reading him and voting him have NO consequences. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if they were scum partners. That's reflecting in my read. It's obviously a thing that D_V could just be doing something I don't fully understand. So at this point it takes Rhand from blue to light blue.

    As for LnGrrR, stay tuned.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    KJ - I was reading your breadcrumbs early, and I actually thought you were going to counterclaim the neighbors (I thought you were nieghbors with Grape before Tau did his thing; hence why I was asking you about it specifically), but the grape reveal makes more sense.
    Grape - Cleared by KJ, who I believe
    Whisper - Could be powerwolfing, but we've mind melded enough on Kami and ETR/Tau that I'm fairly confident you're town.
    Tom - I'm pretty sure you're town, but I'm waiting for your argument against me before commenting further here. There is one point that I want to see if you address.
    Rhand - I had you higher as a townread, but I don't quite know what D_V's attack on your signifies. Gut feel was scum busing.
    GJ/LnGrrR/Tubba/Vaimes/Rodemy - Nulls for now.
    D_V - Your entrance was a vast improvement in the slot, but I have to say "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation. Instead of taking on Tau/ETR with your own opinions, you're telling us about all the other games and gambits and other people's opinions. That doesn't ring true for me.
    Riku - I had you lower, because I wasn't a fan of the interactions early with whisper. Specifically your defense of his meta read against you. But since then, you're been MIA, so you can stay just below my nulls for now.
    Tau - The only thing keeping you from my scum pile is that I think ETR is more likely scum between the two of you. Both of you definitely lied, and neither of you played that the way I'd hope town does. Up until your claim, I had you in the nulls.
    ETR - I do not think you would be dumb enough to vommit out your partners, so there is that. However, even considering that list is wine, I don't know what giving that list accomplishes as town. Did you expect to see scum!tau partner those people? What was your claim going to look like later? Your defense of that list, seems be boiled down to: The lists can't be right because of math/etc, therefore I'm town. Which I don't buy. I think that assumes that scum you wouldn't make up a BS list. The answer wasn't as important as the reason it was given at all.
    Kami - I explained this already, but he's so focused on Tau being town and ETR being scum, and "winning the game on day one" that it screams of inside knowledge. Even disregarding the facts that the team he says he's 90% sure of, can't possibly be the right team (from his perspective). I don't see him looking at all the options and giving them thought. Looks like scum distancing from ETR who is likely going down; and if true might give some towncred to Tau/Tubba (because I don't think ETR give us a real team either way you signaled it).

    Re-reading Rodemy, Rhand, and LnGrrR atm.

    Again, my opinion of this game right now, is that we need to resolve the ETR/Tau situation. My concern is that even if I had my #1 choice (Kami) dead today, I think the mafia just kills somebody in GJ/D_V/Vaimes/Rod/LnGrrR/Tubba; and we have to rehash all the same arguments tomorrow. I would rather analyze results from ETR's flip tomorrow. And yes, I do think ETR is more likely scum than Tau.

    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    @Kami - (devil's advocate time) How does your view change, if ETR meant to signal that the scum team was: You/Tubba/ETR/Tau and not ETR/Tau/Tom/Whisper/Rhand?
    I don't think this question makes sense, as there's nothing that could happen in game that would tell me what someone's intent was. A better question would be, what would happen if one of the flips doesn't happen as expected; that's a hypothetical that would have an observable effect.

    If EtR flips town, I reevaluate. Tau looks quite bad - if I had zero additional info and had to decide the next kill from there, I'd say Tau.
    If EtR flips scum, and then we go on to kill one of the people on the list, and that person flips town, that's also reevaluation, but likely means Tau is still clear. I think we'd have to fall back to standard behavioral analysis of the rest of the players - I'd be tempted to play the "why did EtR put together that specific false list" game but that would be difficult.
    I am asking this, because your reads in this situation were "tonal" (fake) scum reads of the Rhand/Whisper/Tom team, and I wanted to see if you'd respond with actual reads on any of the people in the other group.

    I was also looking for the obvious answer that the You/Tau/ETR/Tubba group can't exist, based on your world view. If ETR is scum, Tau can't be. He just made the one-in-a-million play, in your mind, and won the game for town day one. You said that is 80-90% certain for you. Also, YOU'RE INCLUDED IN THIS SCUM GROUP.

    Instead you just went and enumerated the possibilities again, which we're hashed to death. THat means you're not trying to solve, and that means you're scum.

    I think the best move is still lynch ETR today, I'll be happy to let Tau prove his new ability, and you start tomorrow as suspect #1 regardless of ETR's flip.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from EtR »
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    @Kami - (devil's advocate time) How does your view change, if ETR meant to signal that the scum team was: You/Tubba/ETR/Tau and not ETR/Tau/Tom/Whisper/Rhand?

    ETR, Tau, Tom, Whisper, Rhand...The 5 person scum team?
    shhh
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    @Kami - (devil's advocate time) How does your view change, if ETR meant to signal that the scum team was: You/Tubba/ETR/Tau and not ETR/Tau/Tom/Whisper/Rhand?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from Rhand »
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    I thought grapes response to it was super towny...

    Both etr and Tau need to be evaluated, that's regardless of ETRs flip
    That underlined part is spooky. If you're not town, you're a ton better at this game than I am.

    Yeh I keep thinking about this and can’t wrap my head around this thought.
    @Mind: do you really not realise that if EtR flips scum and is scum with tau, he won’t flip neighbour?
    And that that means that if he does flip scum neighbour, tau is cleared?
    It was spooky because it was part of my redacted reasoning, which nobody can prove really, so whatever. But I liked that thought also coming from Whisper, which reinforces my town read on him.

    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    Quote from Rhand »
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    I thought grapes response to it was super towny...

    Both etr and Tau need to be evaluated, that's regardless of ETRs flip
    That underlined part is spooky. If you're not town, you're a ton better at this game than I am.

    Yeh I keep thinking about this and can’t wrap my head around this thought.
    @Mind: do you really not realise that if EtR flips scum and is scum with tau, he won’t flip neighbour?
    And that that means that if he does flip scum neighbour, tau is cleared?
    can't they both be scum? As neighbors I mean?
    Yes, and that's a weird play as well. I mean maybe it clears Tau for a while but he'd be tainted for the rest of the game.

    One thing that strikes me though, in the ETR response and also Tau's acceptance: Neither one seems to have questioned the number of mafia in the game. ETR just proclaimed the number of mafia at 4 (and it doesn't look like Tau questioned it). I haven't played in a while, but is there a pretty standard algorithm for balancing town VS scum? Or am I reading too much into that?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    I thought grapes response to it was super towny...

    Both etr and Tau need to be evaluated, that's regardless of ETRs flip
    That underlined part is spooky. If you're not town, you're a ton better at this game than I am.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Quote from Tubba Fett »
    Quote from M1ndreaver »
    Immediate thoughts are: ETR scum probably no matter what. I will wait for him to post, because I don't want to taint his answers with my own thoughts.

    Unvote, Vote ETR

    Also, is Tau is scum, Grape is too.


    What ties Grape and Tau together for you?
    Only in the situation where Tau is scum and making some crazy gambit, trying to get town!ETR killed. In that world, which is not something I believe in btw, I see it as a way of discrediting the arguments against Grape (Rhand brought the "tell" case against Grape, Tom defended it and tied me as Grape's scumbuddy, and Whisper was also vocal about it). I think that's enough coincidence to point to coordination between Grape and Tau.

    But like I said, I don't believe that at the moment. It might be WIFOM, but I can't see scum!tau taking such a risk just to kill a town!etr on day 1. *MAYBE* he would if he thought he could discredit Tom/Rhand/Whisper enough to get suspicion off Grape. There is also a world where Tau and LnGrrR are scum together, and Tau is trying to stop that wagon, but the inclusion of Rhand doesn't make sense there. I'm also not sure LnGrrR's wagon is at the point where I'd make a gambit to stop it. I know I'm not Tau, but I just don't see it.

    *PARAGRAPH REDACTED UNTIL ETR POSTS*

    In any case, ETR and Tau can't both be telling the truth right now.

    @KJ - What are your thoughts on Tau's claim?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    Immediate thoughts are: ETR scum probably no matter what. I will wait for him to post, because I don't want to taint his answers with my own thoughts.

    Unvote, Vote ETR

    Also, is Tau is scum, Grape is too.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Death in the Family - Game Over - A Family in Ruins
    @LW Fair enough.
    @Rod I would also like to see your stance on Grape, and also on LnGrrrR.



    Posted in: Mafia
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