Awesome game to watch. I nailed Shadow and cantrip, but thought last was their partner instead of rhand :). Mostly because last was pushing to keep both him and rhand on missions, and dummy rhand. I'm not sure what you expected to glean from that. Especially later when you got the single fail, and it's like "*****, nothing here really settled that dichotomy".
Ironically, Cantrip's mission 4 was what won the game. Great job pushing that one through. Although saying he dummied shadow, I was like huh? I'd have loved to see you be like, "not telling muahahahaha",
I was cheering for you lggnr. Don't give up next time. I think your instincts to be reasonable did you a disservice. But well played for sure.
Shadow was great, Couple comments were a little greedy. Casting shade on lggnr at the end *probably* wasn't needed and I thought might tip someone off that you needed lggnr dummied to win.
But the fact remains that I answered MY opinion on this well before you posted your attack on me. Didn't attack you actually. Just put my observations on a reads list. You're the one who went bat*****.
Additionally, I bring up the balancing issues which NOBODY else does. Most of my thought are independent and I challenge you to show otherwise. You claim I'm repeating others. I'm not. I didn't say ALL your thoughts are repeating others. I said you quoted others, and other experiences to sell your POV instead of before you gave yours. Can you at least agree there?
Finally, you ignore the fact that ALL of the posts were withing hours of each other I was moving in real time though my thought process. I didn't say I ignored that. Cool story though.
You did cherry pick and you did lie about the posts. Agree to Disagree I know you cherry picked (NO COLLUSION), because when you made your attack on me (Didn't attack you, you sensitive flower) for being playing remember when I had given a lot of thoughts on my feelings on the whole situation (talk some more about your feelings). So you're just lying. I"m not, but that's okay if you think so. Bye dearie. muah.
</blockquote>
I didn't go bat***** on you dude. I said come on my I talked about a lot of other things between then.
You responded back "No you didn't" and I've shown that I did. You are now claiming that you were just focusing on those posts.
But you used the hyperbole that HALF my posts were about that, they were not. You attacked me for using these comments in three of my posts. While claiming that it was a majority of my posts, when I said this wasn't true you said and I quote
it's every post from your entrance until my comment. Which ones did I miss?
That's a ******* LIE.
It WASN'T every post since until your entrance. In fact I've quoted half a dozen posts that I didn't do that in.
Yeah this is done. I hope you're happy with yourself. I'm not speaking to you for the rest of this game. You managed to language lawyer me to death. Managed to twist every word into a "he's lying!".
Maybe I messed up the quotes. My question to you, that you ******* ignored, is because it doesn't MATTER when you said any of those quotes. and I'm sure that's just another "He lied!" quote, so don't even bother. My point was that you were relying on those quotes, and I wasn't showing progression in my thoughts. I was showing why I thought as I did about you.
Mistakes aren't lies BTW. Not everything is some malicious attack. So you can **** off with that. Hope you win lots of games with that logic.
I believe (and your posts show) that you didnt care about grape at all you just joined a popular wagon.
just shortening the post. not CHERRY PICKING. I wanted pressure on Grape at that time, and yeah, I thought he could be scum based on that language tell. If you thought I was scum, why would I do that?
It's not as if Grape was sitting on 7 votes and I was #8. I was #3 after Rhand's post. But sure, a vote is a vote. You got me. I voted for the Grape. Now what?
But the fact remains that I answered MY opinion on this well before you posted your attack on me. Didn't attack you actually. Just put my observations on a reads list. You're the one who went bat*****.
Additionally, I bring up the balancing issues which NOBODY else does. Most of my thought are independent and I challenge you to show otherwise. You claim I'm repeating others. I'm not. I didn't say ALL your thoughts are repeating others. I said you quoted others, and other experiences to sell your POV instead of before you gave yours. Can you at least agree there?
Finally, you ignore the fact that ALL of the posts were withing hours of each other I was moving in real time though my thought process. I didn't say I ignored that. Cool story though.
You did cherry pick and you did lie about the posts. Agree to Disagree I know you cherry picked (NO COLLUSION), because when you made your attack on me (Didn't attack you, you sensitive flower) for being playing remember when I had given a lot of thoughts on my feelings on the whole situation (talk some more about your feelings). So you're just lying. I"m not, but that's okay if you think so. Bye dearie. muah.
I have no idea what happened to that post it worked fine in preview.
If you go to that post you'll see at the end of it
The very next post you declare that ETR/Tau is low percent, so shouldn't be figured out. And you move onto Rhand. Without every giving a solid read on Tau or ETR or sharing what YOU think about THIS game.
This quote. Mindreaver is quoting a post that I made before the other post and claiming that it is the very next post.
How important is the timing to my argument or yours?
[spoiler][quote from="D_V »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/805970-death-in-the-family-day-1-just-the-beginning?comment=534"]At the end of the day its going to come down to you saying "Its the correct to reveal" and I'm going to counter well maybe its the higher percent play, but
his play isn't anti-town. So, unless you think that the whole scum team has been caught, then he isn't scum. Because for you to think this play has revealed the whole scum team is just a joke to me. And frankly if you think that, I don't respect a word that comes out of your mouth.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I thought he responded with the real scum team. NEVER. I've explicitly said the opposite.
YOu know what D_V, I'm done with you for a little bit, I'm so frustrated with this whole exchange. I demand you admit that you spent a LOT OF TIME talking abou tthose other games, and that tell me that it's not legit to read you that was is ******* garbage.
and I thin you should look into your own reading comprehension.
</blockquote>
I spent very little time talking about it so I'm not sure what you're own about. I've proven this pretty heavily. You cherry picked the three posts I spent talking about it and ignored a good majority of the rest of the posts. Additionally, the posts that I did also talked about other things as well.
Furthermore, I didn't claim that you thought that. I'm stating that the only way you can think he is out scum based on this whole debacle is to think that he did out his whole team.
I don't understand how you think you can misquote me out of context AND out of order in order to paint a narrative to fit your statements and expect me to be anything other than hostile.
I didn't pick posts out of order. I showed EXACTLY what my point was. You spend a lot of time discussion those other games, and other peoples opinions on ETR/TAU and not your own. Yeah, I might not have caught all the posts, and I didn't realize that near the end of 574 you actually HAD an original opinion that ETR is town. That wasn't malicious, it was an obvious oversight because you spent most of that post rehashing the same stuff we've seen from everyone else. Oh, what is ETR thinking, what is Tau doing, is it scum or town, blah blah.
And you know what, if you disagree with somebody, you don't immediately have to be an aggressive dick about it. That might be your default, but it's garbage dude.
I mean straight up, are you really THIS tilted because I told you that "remember when" was scummy? cause I it was. and you did it in multiple posts.
Like, I get that we're all on a mission to show our thoughts, but it's just gonna go on and on and on. If GJ doesn't come in with the same block of text, I'll eat my hat.
^
OHH. Sorry. I specifically figured that you'd weigh in on the ETR/Tau thing the exact why D_V has: W/W is *this likely*, W/V is slightly more likely, V/V is x% less likely. Etc etc. I was being more hyperbolic than referring to anything about you personally.
[spoiler][quote from="D_V »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/805970-death-in-the-family-day-1-just-the-beginning?comment=534"]At the end of the day its going to come down to you saying "Its the correct to reveal" and I'm going to counter well maybe its the higher percent play, but
his play isn't anti-town. So, unless you think that the whole scum team has been caught, then he isn't scum. Because for you to think this play has revealed the whole scum team is just a joke to me. And frankly if you think that, I don't respect a word that comes out of your mouth.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said I thought he responded with the real scum team. NEVER. I've explicitly said the opposite.
YOu know what D_V, I'm done with you for a little bit, I'm so frustrated with this whole exchange. I demand you admit that you spent a LOT OF TIME talking abou tthose other games, and that tell me that it's not legit to read you that was is ******* garbage.
and I thin you should look into your own reading comprehension.
Tom since you were on the other side of Disinheritance how did you think when I claimed to be a neutral that won with scum? For anyone wondering I pulled this exact same play with Tom, and Tom was town in that game.
I told Tom that I was a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum and wanted him to tell his scum buddies this information as well. I also indicated that I "Knew seppel was lying and that I wasn't going to counter claim his buddy".
You can see where he responded to this information by voting Seppel.
I'm not 100% certain to do with the information.
But I feel that if Tom was Town that he would have claimed.
OK smarter people than me discuss.
All of this is about you and Tom and another game. You say you have to think, and then immediately spew this.
For the record even if Wisp's argument was "Even if EtR flips scum it's stupid to assume the list is scum and you should kill me to prove it but killing me is bad because I'm a claimed PR."
It's still Y i k e s.
And for the sake of argument let's say EtR flips scum today. I'm going to push to kill tom tomorrow. The list isn't the most likely answer, but as long as there is a chance it's correct we should pursue it. LW isn't the person I'd choose first off it (tom is the easy first choice) even without the PR claim. If tom flips scum the lol wolves. If tom were to flip town I'd then reevaluate and start digging for wolf reactions with the knowledge that I'm looking for people whose buddy got dunked on but at least didn't ruin the game 100%.
If EtR flips town then we kill Tau. And if he flips town then we learn that yolo gambits are a bad idea.
Grape I agree with the Last part, but doesn't a post like Rhand's
So EtR goes from town Neighbour to town without rolename and an extra hidden ability if his Neighbour dies.
Right...
vote EtR
The ease with which Kami accepts the lynch cascade is very worrysome. Scum if EtR flips scum.
Etr/kami/grape/?
Read like much more inside info.
He votes ETR doesn't address his own implication or Toms. But wants to cascade the kill into KA.
Rhand's vote feels opportunistic.
Some shade for Rhand (prior to you just calling him scum a few posts down). But again, no thoughts given on ETR or Tau, except that "yolo gambits are bad".
Actually, if you're waiting for tom, then never mind.
I'm my own person I can talk about it.
But right now I'm trying to catalog what happened after the claim.
What is your actual stance on the EtR thing? Are you townreading EtR and Reaverb, or do you think there's some truth to EtR's response? Given you're calling tom's and LW's reactions "damage control," which implies they're actually guilty.
I'm really not sure.
ETR could be scum(He could be a form of lost scum and gone "That's like my role seems legit". ) He could be town.
I think there could be truth to ETR's post. I kind of say it in my sum up. I'm not sure why he didn't question his neighbor more in neighbor chat. I guess his play also tells him something about the alignment.
I think Tau and ETR could both be town and I could see that world. Hell Tau could be scum and knows that ETR is town and will tell the truth about the events that transpired.
Its a possibility that ETR got caught. I remember a game a long time ago which was LOTR themed Mines of Moria to be exact. Anyways, the Town in that game was the Goblins/Orcs and the scum was the Fellowship. Someone, day one asked for a race flavor claim and someone claimed Hobbit, they were instantly lynched. I was really sure that they were town and that they couldn't have made that mistake. They were scum and they did just screw up that badly.
Consequently I've run this gambit with Tom. He was town and didn't out me to the town. In fact Sir Chris said if the person was scum they would have instantly claimed and gotten the free town points. I think Sir Chris was right on that. This play isn't nearly as clever as I thought then, and I question if it worked here.
This is a post where you enumerate the options. Only when reminded that you haven't actually weighed in yet. You list the possibilities like everyone else did before you, and then launch back into the analysis of TWO OTHER games, and give us what Sir Chris thought about your gambit with Tom. I didn't like that you used Sir Chris's quote in another game to clear ETR (scum ETR would have just claimed). I didn't like that you used the LotR game to shade ETR (sometimes scum just is stupid). But nowhere do you say what you believe.
I'm going to wait for Tom to get back to me and I'm going to read some more, but man I think lynching ETR is a low percent play.
I think its much more likely that the wolves came to town though when this got aired because MAN did a lot of opportunistic votes get thrown out in all directions.
The only thing I can say is that Tom and Last both went into what I might call "Damage control" and sort of attacked this play immediately. They are also the two most active players though.
I feel pretty sure this is not Town Rhand. Vote Rhand
The very next post you declare that ETR/Tau is low percent, so shouldn't be figured out. And you move onto Rhand. Without every giving a solid read on Tau or ETR or sharing what YOU think about THIS game.
So THAT my friend, is why I characterized your play as "remember when". and I think it's completely accurate.
I'm probably shooting one of you tonight, change my mind
Oh, interesting. The obvious best move is to shoot not-me, but I'm the only one who knows that.
So maybe you do shoot me. I need to re-read a bit still (my son was sick all night so I didn't get to anything yesterday), but I might be the best kill... man I hate to say that. It probably gets Tom to hunt actual scum, and maybe gives a better read on ETR/Tau/Kami/D_V when I flip. Let me think about this more.
Hes prolly a PR worried about looking bad and tryharding. If i were scum id kill him early
@mafia
this is super gross. Unvote, Vote Tom #riprvs
I really don't like the follow up convo with whisper either. But I do appreciate getting the Rhand and Grape defenses, that will make PoE easier down the line.
sure whatever. This could be town mindreaver either actually finding this scummy because hes forgotten me completely, or wanting to pressure me because... hes forgotten me completely. Lol.
Thats not scummy from me (or in general) and pressuring me doesnt do *****. But whatever its possible...
I mean, the option that goes along with him not believing it is just saying stuff to go with blustery confidence im scum so you should wait to see if he just keeps pushing me and looking for connections or is actually thinking things through
But now you have to watch how he reacts to being called out too so that should be fun
Jesus Tom. You're spilling all the beans.
I count probably 8 or 9 people in this thread that I know, that know Tom well enough, to know that we aren't gonna get a good read on him in the first few pages, even when he does something ridiculously scummy. Fair enough?
So is it necessary to actually say that in thread?
Now, the only two people who spoke up about that fact, when Tom did his PR-fishing (which wasn't helpful, especially because the follow up made it super obvious he found one (or did he? Or does LW want scum to think so? WIFOM fo dayz)) were Grape and Rhand.
So in the worlds where I see Tom is scum, doing some kind of weirdo gambit (which to be fair is in his wheelhouse), I don't see Rhand proclaiming him town and also being a scumbuddy. I think that we would see buddies distancing themselves from something like that, which makes Grape's defense a little harder to swallow (he's probably town, BUT TWO RED FLAGS). That's a fence sit if I've ever seen one. Combined with his opportunistic 4th vote on LW, to keep that wagon rolling, doesn't look good.
In the world where Tom is town and is just being Tom, Rhand's read is probably not alignment indicative either way. Scum could be buddying, or town could just be not "reading tom at level 0". Grape's comment still looks gross. Like "here is a little shade for tom, who is probably town"? I don't think that comes from town mindset. Like, I just don't see how it's helpful to state that.
Anyway, my take-away at the moment was I don't like Grape.
So my question for Grape is, when will you share what these red flags are? Can it be now?
but hey look at that it was neither of those things. He clearly realized he cant get away with that read, and it wasnt pressure for pressures sake or he doesnt give it up that early.
So lets transition that awkwardly into jumping on the growing grape wagon, while lightly leaking that hes paying attention to my rolehunting in a professional capacity.
Then he pops back in after the grape wagon got even bigger because rhand meta, and... doesnt even comment on grape who he thinks is scum only mentions it in passing while vaguely attacking wisp eho he thinks is town PR
Then in response to tau/etr
"In any case, ETR and Tau can't both be telling the truth right now."
Which... a) i think is second most likely and b) has a ton of scum motivation in several possible combinations
I guess this is where i note that i kinda like his read on kami, and they're not super likely partners
Rhand - I had you higher as a townread, but I don't quite know what D_V's attack on your signifies. Gut feel was scum busing.
<snip>
D_V - Your entrance was a vast improvement in the slot, but I have to say "remember when" is the lowest form of conversation. Instead of taking on Tau/ETR with your own opinions, you're telling us about all the other games and gambits and other people's opinions. That doesn't ring true for me.
these two reads taken together is just pure agenda
This is still most likely scum itg
What I was looking for from you, is a response to... some earlier post I'm too lazy to find, where your entire Mind/Grape tunnel BS read exploded a few pages ago when KJ "confirmed" town Grape. Any thoughts there? Or is the Rhand read that Whisper already pointed out, and my play from page 3, the only things you're basing this on?
Let me ask you this. Do you believe I thought that Grape wagon was going to go the distance? Why do you think I engaged you and Whisper early specifically?
I have 2 out of 20 posts where I talked about that.
No, you used it to muddy the waters. Half the posts were about a game you played with Tom, neutrals winning with scum, and how TOM would behave in a similar situation, and how Sir Chris felt about it. I'm happy to re-read, but all that extra stuff is just so much fluff. It literally doesn't matter when you and tom did in another game. Show me what ETR or Tau would do; or examples where they've run a gambit; those would be relevant.
I've shown this clearly, and you CLEARLY have no read anything I've written. My iso clearly shows independent thought and analysis, if you had taken any care before you shot of this response you would have seen this. But you didn't. Now I don't know if this is your old age catching up with you or if you're just rusty.
Also, to answer your second question.
A more productive question for you is probably: Why don't we have to solve Tau/ETR? What makes killing Rhand better?
I'm not going to prove a negative. And you're a bastard for trying to argue that way. You are saying that we should solve Etr/Tau. I'm asking why? You're response of "Why not" is a bastard response and you clearly have no interest in developing this reason.
We should kill Rhand, because Rhand is scum. But more importantly we should lynch you, because you're clearly scum or have gotten terrible with your absence.
Unvote Vote Mindreaver
Ugh, fine I'll put in the work to actually quote you in a little bit, and use that to prove my point. And dodging my question is ridiculous dude. I answered why. It gives us the most info on my top scumspects, That's why. Maybe I rambled a bit more than was needed, but there it is. Now why do you believe it's something that can just wait for? Do you think scum kills one of them and solves this for us? Because that would surprise the hell out of me. I mean maybe we can rolecop them; I don't want to know if that's a possibility. Maybe we can figure things out based on their votes eventually? That potentially leaves us with even more headaches (what does it mean if they vote together? etc.
I don't see any way for ETR or Tau to prove that they are town to me over time. Scum!them knows that's the play now. I don't know it that's outside the wheelhouse for either of them.
Kami - I explained this already, but he's so focused on Tau being town and ETR being scum, and "winning the game on day one" that it screams of inside knowledge. Even disregarding the facts that the team he says he's 90% sure of, can't possibly be the right team (from his perspective).
What? Why can't that team be the right team?
well for one, I'm town, so that's one reason, another would be that I believe tom is town, Rhand is starting to go down on the tier list
Mindreaver said that from my perspective it couldn't possibly be the right team and I don't see why that would be.
@Kami - (devil's advocate time) How does your view change, if ETR meant to signal that the scum team was: You/Tubba/ETR/Tau and not ETR/Tau/Tom/Whisper/Rhand?
I don't think this question makes sense, as there's nothing that could happen in game that would tell me what someone's intent was. A better question would be, what would happen if one of the flips doesn't happen as expected; that's a hypothetical that would have an observable effect.
If EtR flips town, I reevaluate. Tau looks quite bad - if I had zero additional info and had to decide the next kill from there, I'd say Tau.
If EtR flips scum, and then we go on to kill one of the people on the list, and that person flips town, that's also reevaluation, but likely means Tau is still clear. I think we'd have to fall back to standard behavioral analysis of the rest of the players - I'd be tempted to play the "why did EtR put together that specific false list" game but that would be difficult.
I am asking this, because your reads in this situation were "tonal" (fake) scum reads of the Rhand/Whisper/Tom team, and I wanted to see if you'd respond with actual reads on any of the people in the other group.
I was also looking for the obvious answer that the You/Tau/ETR/Tubba group can't exist, based on your world view. If ETR is scum, Tau can't be. He just made the one-in-a-million play, in your mind, and won the game for town day one. You said that is 80-90% certain for you. Also, YOU'RE INCLUDED IN THIS SCUM GROUP.
Instead you just went and enumerated the possibilities again, which we're hashed to death. THat means you're not trying to solve, and that means you're scum.
I think the best move is still lynch ETR today, I'll be happy to let Tau prove his new ability, and you start tomorrow as suspect #1 regardless of ETR's flip.
Ironically, Cantrip's mission 4 was what won the game. Great job pushing that one through. Although saying he dummied shadow, I was like huh? I'd have loved to see you be like, "not telling muahahahaha",
I was cheering for you lggnr. Don't give up next time. I think your instincts to be reasonable did you a disservice. But well played for sure.
Shadow was great, Couple comments were a little greedy. Casting shade on lggnr at the end *probably* wasn't needed and I thought might tip someone off that you needed lggnr dummied to win.
Maybe I messed up the quotes. My question to you, that you ******* ignored, is because it doesn't MATTER when you said any of those quotes. and I'm sure that's just another "He lied!" quote, so don't even bother. My point was that you were relying on those quotes, and I wasn't showing progression in my thoughts. I was showing why I thought as I did about you.
Mistakes aren't lies BTW. Not everything is some malicious attack. So you can **** off with that. Hope you win lots of games with that logic.
It's not as if Grape was sitting on 7 votes and I was #8. I was #3 after Rhand's post. But sure, a vote is a vote. You got me. I voted for the Grape. Now what?
Gonna answer my other question?
CHERRY PICKING!
I didn't pick posts out of order. I showed EXACTLY what my point was. You spend a lot of time discussion those other games, and other peoples opinions on ETR/TAU and not your own. Yeah, I might not have caught all the posts, and I didn't realize that near the end of 574 you actually HAD an original opinion that ETR is town. That wasn't malicious, it was an obvious oversight because you spent most of that post rehashing the same stuff we've seen from everyone else. Oh, what is ETR thinking, what is Tau doing, is it scum or town, blah blah.
And you know what, if you disagree with somebody, you don't immediately have to be an aggressive dick about it. That might be your default, but it's garbage dude.
I mean straight up, are you really THIS tilted because I told you that "remember when" was scummy? cause I it was. and you did it in multiple posts.
CHERRY PICKING
NO COLLUSION
YOu know what D_V, I'm done with you for a little bit, I'm so frustrated with this whole exchange. I demand you admit that you spent a LOT OF TIME talking abou tthose other games, and that tell me that it's not legit to read you that was is ******* garbage.
and I thin you should look into your own reading comprehension.
All of this is about you and Tom and another game. You say you have to think, and then immediately spew this.
Some shade for Rhand (prior to you just calling him scum a few posts down). But again, no thoughts given on ETR or Tau, except that "yolo gambits are bad".
This is a post where you enumerate the options. Only when reminded that you haven't actually weighed in yet. You list the possibilities like everyone else did before you, and then launch back into the analysis of TWO OTHER games, and give us what Sir Chris thought about your gambit with Tom. I didn't like that you used Sir Chris's quote in another game to clear ETR (scum ETR would have just claimed). I didn't like that you used the LotR game to shade ETR (sometimes scum just is stupid). But nowhere do you say what you believe. The very next post you declare that ETR/Tau is low percent, so shouldn't be figured out. And you move onto Rhand. Without every giving a solid read on Tau or ETR or sharing what YOU think about THIS game.
So THAT my friend, is why I characterized your play as "remember when". and I think it's completely accurate.
So maybe you do shoot me. I need to re-read a bit still (my son was sick all night so I didn't get to anything yesterday), but I might be the best kill... man I hate to say that. It probably gets Tom to hunt actual scum, and maybe gives a better read on ETR/Tau/Kami/D_V when I flip. Let me think about this more.
Let me ask you this. Do you believe I thought that Grape wagon was going to go the distance? Why do you think I engaged you and Whisper early specifically?
I don't see any way for ETR or Tau to prove that they are town to me over time. Scum!them knows that's the play now. I don't know it that's outside the wheelhouse for either of them.
Finally, I was always terrible