and by the way shadow, what I was trying to say is exactly what happened. Now the town has to decide between you and Rod tomorrow, because you manipulated it that way.
well, if that's a hammer, I am actually VT. Shadow should be either copped or murdered tomorrow. Good luck town. Way to not even let 2 people come in to talk. and good job Shadow and probably mil. you guys really deserve the scum win.
I'm happy to flavor claim (I'm Marvin the Martian), but I'm hesitant to fully claim at this point. I'm not sure it helps town.
So people more familiar with micros: Is it in towns interest for me to claim right now? For the sake of this question, assume I'm not scum trying to trick you. My opinion is that it helps by either outing me as a power role, or it helps narrow the field down. It also doesn't help me, that shadow is the one calling for it.
Softclaims are not enough. My vote stays.
okay, VT. Happy now? Thank's for not giving it an ounce of thought.
M1ndreaver/Rodemy is possible. Were you gleeful? Gleeful is a strong descriptor for "Hah nice catch." M1ndreaver/Rodemy contains at least 1 scum, most likely. I believe that you and Tom are town.
Eh, I think amused is more accurate than gleeful, I’m definitely happy with having a likely catch on someone so early, but not like, shouting praise to the heavens. It depends on how strong you read gleeful as.
I'll just throw this out there: I said gleeful, because when people lie, sometimes their body language betrays them (shaking their head while saying the yes for example, I was trying to find the Lance Armstrong doping interview with this example but couldn't find it). Now in print, usually you can't use tells like that, because people can polish their responses, re-read and re-type, etc. The only place you really see what somebody feels is if they write quickly, emotionally. I do think that response from you, where the first thing you say is "Hah", is definitely telling. You didn't say "interesting" for example. I would encourage everyone to look at Tom's response directly before it. Written just as quickly, and look at how it starts. "Excellent question". That's a town response to a legit question. You're first instinct was to laugh, and by your own admission be amused. Maybe that does mean you're amused that scum would be caught so early. But that seems like a stretch, you aren't a new player. You know it's page 1. You know how unlikely it is for somebody to slip and be scum so early. But that wouldn't amused me. I think a more logical explanation is that you are scum, and that you know I'm not scum. In that case, you're amused because you think this is a free lynch. And it might be. I will definitely fight it the whole time.
My biggest fear at the moment, is that I'm reading this wrong, and you're just being stubborn. Because at this point, you're pushing so hard, and I'm pushing right back. If the team is something like Mifare and Beer/Vez, town's screwed. Because if I got lynched right this second, I'd be calling for your death with my last breath, and I'm going to have my flip to exonerate me. So I'm begging you, that if you are town, you really think about that. Think about the state of the game right now, and how it looks if I happen to flip town. Like I get worlds where scum me might say this too, and I may be wasting my breath. But it is actually the truth.
Didn’t realize we only had 2 more days, I’m happy with a mind flip (hah).
Vote mind L-1, mind claim now.
If someone hammers before the claim, that’s a scum claim.
This is just for posterity, but honestly setting up the game state in this way, is actually scummy. If Shadow is scum, as I am claiming, this reads as him distancing himself from owning the lynch, hoping that somebody else hammers, so he can present them as a lynch possibility tomorrow.
Also, Shadow. Here's the olive branch, although I still think you're scum. Consider the scenario that I'm town. Where does that leave us tomorrow? Do you feel like my "slip" was so real that you're absolutely convinced? If so, I'm probably just wasting my time even talking to you.
I'm happy to flavor claim (I'm Marvin the Martian), but I'm hesitant to fully claim at this point. I'm not sure it helps town.
So people more familiar with micros: Is it in towns interest for me to claim right now? For the sake of this question, assume I'm not scum trying to trick you. My opinion is that it helps by either outing me as a power role, or it helps narrow the field down. It also doesn't help me, that shadow is the one calling for it.
@Mifare, you seem really set on me. Can you do me a favor, and since it's only a few posts, give me your read on shadow?
Like, I get it, you think it's this huge gotcha. But honestly, the way the conversation developed we were never really talking about the 33% random chance that tom was scum. I understand Tom saying I only paid lip service to it, but this whole situation is literally me saying I wanted him at L-1, completely blind, completely randomly.
Please take a look at how Shadow phrased his question to me in #16. That was the second post of his that pinged me (#10's IIOA was the first, for the record).
As far as scumbuddies with me (which one way or another will be disproved), I'll give my thoughts anyway. I'm usually easy to read as scum, because I actually hate being scum, it ruins the whole game for me. I really just like solving, and that will eventually shine through, somebody will cop me, or I'll die. I will feel badly if I end up the lynch because of some "omg he slipped" stuff, becasue that would mean Shadow just straight up outplayd me, and me trying to be reasonable bit me in the ass. But I don't necessarily see that happening. In my best scum game, I bussed my team into the ground (and there are lots of examples where I just implode because I can't muster the effort needed to save myself). It's not outside my wheelhouse to link Tom and I together, but honestly I'd be more likely scum with Shadow right now, based on how I usually play. As far as Rodemy, I've been scum with him twice, and literally every time he does a crazy "scum would never do that" gambit. So he'd be the most likely partner on my wagon.
K, now that I've indulged that world that doesn't exist, I'm going to think about worlds that do. I do think Shadow is scum, I'm gonna leave my vote there. So far he's encouraged conversation, without providing any details, and has managed to get onto a lot of wagons that might have been quick lynches without a ton of thought or reasoning. I don't think it's an accident that he's agreeing with you. As far as what that means... I think shadow doesn't exactly come out swinging like this if he's got a really strong scum partner, who can steer the conversation (ie, Tom). He's possible with Rod, because I think that kind of gamble is right up Rod's alley.
It's also possible you're shadow's partner. I think if Shadow was town and you weren't, Shadow would be dead right now. Yes, you'd face scrutiny tomorrow, but so would Rod and Tom. So I'm forced to conclude you're either town, or you're both wolves.
Ironically, that response makes me feel better about Tom, and worse about Shadow. I personally think you just couldn't hold in the glee. Tom's response was at least thoughtful, emotionless.
I think you guys are better than that. I don't know Tom's alignment. You asked specifically WHY I didn't vote him. Which is, that the risk isn't worth the reward. And the risk is, he's town.
You should go peruse some micros in the past couple years, fast hammers are somewhat more common and come from both alignments accidentally (or on purpose).
that's probably good advice. This is my first micro.
You’re more worried about first experiences than a quick lynch?
I'll clarify, because I'm not sure that statement reflects what I was saying. I was more concerned that a newish town played would see 3 votes, and not think through hammering Tom (which would lead to scum killing a town player overnight, and then we'd lynch the hammering vote, and then scum kills another town, and then they control the vote and we lose). Either not realizing it was a hammer, or thinking that Rod's/Your vote was a serious/genuine attempt at finding and killing scum. So that's was my biggest reason for not specifically voting Tom then, "10 posts in" as you put it.
I'm less concerned with quick lynches. My personality is usually more shoot from the hip, trust my instincts, than it is to over-analyze. So I don't usually mind if a lynch comes about quickly, so long as all the votes are real, and all the people are reasonably satisfied with that vote.
Well, I figured he's got a 33% chance of being scum, just randomly. And then if he IS town, who would hammer except scum? right? So we're doing a 1 for 1.
My only hesitation was, that I don't know roughly 3/4ths of the game, and I didn't want somebody's first mafia experience ever to be like "oh, I'll do what everyone else is doing, and accidentally cause town to lose day 2.
Sadly in a micro that’s all too possible. Less so with you pointing it out, but I’ve seen weirder. Also less possible if you’re scum.
I saw this last night. What's are your thoughts about Tom pointing it out? I don't see any opinions here, just information (and information we kinda already knew).
@Tom I seriously considered putting you at L-1 just for being so aware of votes this early. Eventually I decided not to. Why should/shouldn't I?
@Mifare Is a short/small game a good thing or a bad thing?
My biggest fear at the moment, is that I'm reading this wrong, and you're just being stubborn. Because at this point, you're pushing so hard, and I'm pushing right back. If the team is something like Mifare and Beer/Vez, town's screwed. Because if I got lynched right this second, I'd be calling for your death with my last breath, and I'm going to have my flip to exonerate me. So I'm begging you, that if you are town, you really think about that. Think about the state of the game right now, and how it looks if I happen to flip town. Like I get worlds where scum me might say this too, and I may be wasting my breath. But it is actually the truth.
This is just for posterity, but honestly setting up the game state in this way, is actually scummy. If Shadow is scum, as I am claiming, this reads as him distancing himself from owning the lynch, hoping that somebody else hammers, so he can present them as a lynch possibility tomorrow.
So people more familiar with micros: Is it in towns interest for me to claim right now? For the sake of this question, assume I'm not scum trying to trick you. My opinion is that it helps by either outing me as a power role, or it helps narrow the field down. It also doesn't help me, that shadow is the one calling for it.
Like, I get it, you think it's this huge gotcha. But honestly, the way the conversation developed we were never really talking about the 33% random chance that tom was scum. I understand Tom saying I only paid lip service to it, but this whole situation is literally me saying I wanted him at L-1, completely blind, completely randomly.
Please take a look at how Shadow phrased his question to me in #16. That was the second post of his that pinged me (#10's IIOA was the first, for the record).
As far as scumbuddies with me (which one way or another will be disproved), I'll give my thoughts anyway. I'm usually easy to read as scum, because I actually hate being scum, it ruins the whole game for me. I really just like solving, and that will eventually shine through, somebody will cop me, or I'll die. I will feel badly if I end up the lynch because of some "omg he slipped" stuff, becasue that would mean Shadow just straight up outplayd me, and me trying to be reasonable bit me in the ass. But I don't necessarily see that happening. In my best scum game, I bussed my team into the ground (and there are lots of examples where I just implode because I can't muster the effort needed to save myself). It's not outside my wheelhouse to link Tom and I together, but honestly I'd be more likely scum with Shadow right now, based on how I usually play. As far as Rodemy, I've been scum with him twice, and literally every time he does a crazy "scum would never do that" gambit. So he'd be the most likely partner on my wagon.
K, now that I've indulged that world that doesn't exist, I'm going to think about worlds that do. I do think Shadow is scum, I'm gonna leave my vote there. So far he's encouraged conversation, without providing any details, and has managed to get onto a lot of wagons that might have been quick lynches without a ton of thought or reasoning. I don't think it's an accident that he's agreeing with you. As far as what that means... I think shadow doesn't exactly come out swinging like this if he's got a really strong scum partner, who can steer the conversation (ie, Tom). He's possible with Rod, because I think that kind of gamble is right up Rod's alley.
It's also possible you're shadow's partner. I think if Shadow was town and you weren't, Shadow would be dead right now. Yes, you'd face scrutiny tomorrow, but so would Rod and Tom. So I'm forced to conclude you're either town, or you're both wolves.
@Vezok, @Beer - Your thoughts on any of this?
Vote Shadow
I'll clarify, because I'm not sure that statement reflects what I was saying. I was more concerned that a newish town played would see 3 votes, and not think through hammering Tom (which would lead to scum killing a town player overnight, and then we'd lynch the hammering vote, and then scum kills another town, and then they control the vote and we lose). Either not realizing it was a hammer, or thinking that Rod's/Your vote was a serious/genuine attempt at finding and killing scum. So that's was my biggest reason for not specifically voting Tom then, "10 posts in" as you put it.
I'm less concerned with quick lynches. My personality is usually more shoot from the hip, trust my instincts, than it is to over-analyze. So I don't usually mind if a lynch comes about quickly, so long as all the votes are real, and all the people are reasonably satisfied with that vote.
My only hesitation was, that I don't know roughly 3/4ths of the game, and I didn't want somebody's first mafia experience ever to be like "oh, I'll do what everyone else is doing, and accidentally cause town to lose day 2.
@Tom I seriously considered putting you at L-1 just for being so aware of votes this early. Eventually I decided not to. Why should/shouldn't I?
@Mifare Is a short/small game a good thing or a bad thing?