The fact that Oketra hasn't been mentioned is just a testament to how ridiculous Whites 5 drops are. I have a feeling that Oketra may end up breaking into the list of premium white 5 drops over time, even though it is a "fair" card that lacks cube synergy. It's just ridiculously powerful.
Reminds me of how you didn't mention Hydroid Krasis in your last review on Allegiance. You definitely evaluate incredibly powerful "fair" cards that don't slide into predefined cube archetypes lower then I do. I feel like these types of cards are usually worth a mention in the top 20 list.
Also, Vivien's Arkbow seems to be a bit overestimated in my opinion. This is probably the 5th best green 2cc discard outlet, behind survival of the fittest, fauna shaman, wild mongrel, and noose constricter. I could be way off on that, it has unique utility, it just seems way too inconsistent and expensive when trying to get actual value from the activated ability.
Just my two cents. Great review as always. I look forward to every one of your (P)reviews as the set comes out.
I disagree with wholeheartedly. I don't think they're even close, and I think Slime is miles better. Slime >>>>>>>>>> Vivien.
Haha I get your point that Slime can be considered better than Vivien in certain regards, but that seems a bit hyperbolic. Vivien is a fantastic planeswalker, and can easily win you games, unlike slime. Agree to disagree I guess.
Now that we've had a lot of time to play with the set, I'd say that in hindsight, the low rating of Vivien Reid and the fact that Dryad Greenseeker didn't make the list seem the be the biggest things I would disagree with.
Vivien is generally alot better than Acidic Slime for example, which is a cube staple. I'd say Slime is only more powerful in cubes that run ridiculously strong lands like Tolarian Academy, Gaea's Cradle, Maze of Ith, Library of Alexandria, etc. and even then, their power level is very similar. She compares very well to other green planeswalkers as well in my experience. She's played great with my playgroup. I feel like she could have placed as high as 6th on this list.
Dryad Greenseeker is a 2 drop that is comparable to Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya, and that alone should have placed it in the top 20. I feel like it could have have been placed as high as the 9-13 region on this list.
Also wanna mention Carnival of Souls as an interesting option for a more combo/suicidal build. That kind of build would really prefer black vampires that cost 2 or less over any other kind. 1 drops actually gain you mana and 2 drops are free. Might also want a little bit of life gain to offset the self burn, and a ton of card draw. Combine with Oketra's monument, Skullclamp, Mentor of the Meek, etc. Maybe even Bygone Bishop if you prioritize 1 drops.
the +1/+1 counter was a big deal. Hangarback Walker/Walking Ballista/Triskelion as some quick examples get noticeable value (we saw a Hangarback for 0 mana).
Doesn't the Hangarback walker die to state-based effects before Riot resolves if cast for 0?
Really cool thread and a really cool deck. I've come to a very similar build, although much more budgety and with way fewer tutors. Just wanted to mention some budget replacements/options that aren't in your build (even though most have been mentioned earlier in the thread), as well as bring up a few cards that seem like the weak points of the deck from my perspective.
Really wanna highlight Springleaf Drum in particular. This card has just been stellar as an ultra-efficient ramp option. Overperforms and plays much better than it looks. Think of it as a colorless Bird of Paradise with haste, cuz that's exactly how it plays in this deck. It generally taps down a token with summoning sickness and has almost zero drawbacks for Edgar decks. Easily as good as Legion's Landing (if not better than) if you're playing that as ramp.
Metallic Mimic and Serra Ascendant seem great if played immediately. They seem like terrible cards when drawn at any other stage of the game though. Not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze on those two. Too high of variance in their performance. Serra Ascendant reminds me of Yahenni, Undying Partisan in that I've seen the card dominate games before, but it just seems too inconsistent in this deck. I think Shared Triumph is generally better than Metallic Mimic for this deck.
Midnight Reaper seems better than Zulaport Cutthroat to me, even though it doesn't care about tokens. It just seems like there are better cards to punish and get value from dying creatures.
Also surprised that you're not including Eldrazi Monument and Coat of Arms, even though they are 5 CMC and I read your previous points. Coat of Arms is tied with Shared Animosity for the best finisher in the deck for me, but it sounds like they've been mediocre for you. You also seem to have a more tribal meta than I do. Cards like Harsh Mercy and Coat of Arms are auto-includes for me due to my meta having few tribal decks.
The non-artifact clause still hits most of the relevant targets in cubes.
Negatives
It costs 5 life
It's a sorcery
The mana cost is black intensive
Doesn't kill artifact creatures.
Requires 2 legal targets to cast, making it somewhat restrictive.
This card was initially added to my cube when my cube was much weaker and has continued to be a favorite for my playgroup as my cube has become much leaner. Having removal that exiles two creatures for three mana has been very powerful, but the 5 life is a heavy cost.
I like the mentioned synergies with artifact decks, although you still have to attack to get your gold. I think I like Captain Lannery Storm as a treasure producer for most cubes more, and even she's not that great.
I agree with Morphlings assessment that this is basically a fog effect, and not that great for cube unless you cube is FILLED with cards like the ones mentioned by OP. Although you can name many situations where the card can cause blowouts, the same is true for fog, and it's generally better to have a card that can actually do something. I think similar cards like Boros Charm, Heroic intervention and even Unbreakable formation are better in cube, and other than Boros Charm, those aren't great options. It can't even be imprinted on isochron for abuse.
I also think the comparison to time walk is a terrible one. Your opponent still gets to untap their permanents, draw, play lands, ramp, cast any creatures, planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, draw spells, etc.. they want to improve their position, and hold up mana for counterspells.
Teferis protections is great primarily because it protects against Cyclonic Rift in commander, which isn't format defining in cube and doesn't really require answers. Hard Pass. Use cards that are more flexible that do other things too like Boros Charm, even if they protect from less situations.
I Like the flexibility and immediate reward of Collective Effort the most. I think Meadowboon is a significant amount worse than the other options suggested, unless you are also supporting flicker. I think there are certainly stronger cards than Meadowboon and Together Forever, like Anafensa KTS, Ajani Goldmane, and Venerated Loxodon for example.
The poor mans Sword of Feast and Famine. The card can pay for itself the turn it comes into play and has the potential to make future turns very explosive. The lands untap before blockers are assigned allowing you to play instant speed interaction to clear the board the same turn. Almost reminds me of the Kaladesh "Expertise" cycle in that it is almost free to cast and has a very high ceiling. Has Totem Armor to help mitigate 2 for 1 scenarios.
Thoughts? Also what Enchant Creatures do you find playable in cube?
Bonus Question: What are the best fatties in cube that see play despite providing no value when killed on sight?
I love this type of question as it's hard to properly answer. What makes a value creature? If a creature can get exiled immediately after being cast without any value, does that automatically make it not a value creature? If so, Consecrated Sphynx isn't a value creature, which makes me think that might not be the only way one should judge value. Do death triggers make a creature a value creature? What about haste, or creatures with valuable effects once in the graveyard? It's not black and white.
I think the best no-value fatties that are meant to be hard cast normally (and not cheated in with reanimate, sneak/show, etc) are probably Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, Kalonian Hydra, Carnage Tyrant, Abyssal Persecutor and Doom Whisperer (which is arguably a value creature), off the top of my head.
I actually prefer to run a certain amount of expensive creatures that don't have value to keep removal good. Too great of a density of value creatures makes removal actively bad and board wipe essential to recover when you fall behind. What playable green 5 cmc creature sees cube play and isn't a value card besides Kalonian Hydra?
Reminds me of how you didn't mention Hydroid Krasis in your last review on Allegiance. You definitely evaluate incredibly powerful "fair" cards that don't slide into predefined cube archetypes lower then I do. I feel like these types of cards are usually worth a mention in the top 20 list.
Also, Vivien's Arkbow seems to be a bit overestimated in my opinion. This is probably the 5th best green 2cc discard outlet, behind survival of the fittest, fauna shaman, wild mongrel, and noose constricter. I could be way off on that, it has unique utility, it just seems way too inconsistent and expensive when trying to get actual value from the activated ability.
Just my two cents. Great review as always. I look forward to every one of your (P)reviews as the set comes out.
Haha I get your point that Slime can be considered better than Vivien in certain regards, but that seems a bit hyperbolic. Vivien is a fantastic planeswalker, and can easily win you games, unlike slime. Agree to disagree I guess.
Now that we've had a lot of time to play with the set, I'd say that in hindsight, the low rating of Vivien Reid and the fact that Dryad Greenseeker didn't make the list seem the be the biggest things I would disagree with.
Vivien is generally alot better than Acidic Slime for example, which is a cube staple. I'd say Slime is only more powerful in cubes that run ridiculously strong lands like Tolarian Academy, Gaea's Cradle, Maze of Ith, Library of Alexandria, etc. and even then, their power level is very similar. She compares very well to other green planeswalkers as well in my experience. She's played great with my playgroup. I feel like she could have placed as high as 6th on this list.
Dryad Greenseeker is a 2 drop that is comparable to Courser of Kruphix and Oracle of Mul Daya, and that alone should have placed it in the top 20. I feel like it could have have been placed as high as the 9-13 region on this list.
Thanks for making all of these reviews, wtwlf123!
Positives
Negatives
What do you all think of the Greenseeker? What green 2 drops do you run over it?
None at all. Just slipped my mind. Also forgot to mention Mentor of the Meek for no reason.
Silumgar's Command
Positives
Negatives
Doesn't the Hangarback walker die to state-based effects before Riot resolves if cast for 0?
Budget:
For card draw:
Promise of Power, Necrologia, Mask of Memory, Vanquisher's Banner, Ruin Raider
Midnight Reaper, Minions' Murmurs, Mentor of the Meek, Dark Prophecy
For Tutors:
Steelshaper's Gift, Forerunner of the Legion
For Ramp:
Springleaf Drum, Paradise Mantle
Really wanna highlight Springleaf Drum in particular. This card has just been stellar as an ultra-efficient ramp option. Overperforms and plays much better than it looks. Think of it as a colorless Bird of Paradise with haste, cuz that's exactly how it plays in this deck. It generally taps down a token with summoning sickness and has almost zero drawbacks for Edgar decks. Easily as good as Legion's Landing (if not better than) if you're playing that as ramp.
As far as cards that seem a bit iffy:
Serra Ascendant
Metallic Mimic
Zulaport Cutthroat
Metallic Mimic and Serra Ascendant seem great if played immediately. They seem like terrible cards when drawn at any other stage of the game though. Not sure if the juice is worth the squeeze on those two. Too high of variance in their performance. Serra Ascendant reminds me of Yahenni, Undying Partisan in that I've seen the card dominate games before, but it just seems too inconsistent in this deck. I think Shared Triumph is generally better than Metallic Mimic for this deck.
Midnight Reaper seems better than Zulaport Cutthroat to me, even though it doesn't care about tokens. It just seems like there are better cards to punish and get value from dying creatures.
Also surprised that you're not including Eldrazi Monument and Coat of Arms, even though they are 5 CMC and I read your previous points. Coat of Arms is tied with Shared Animosity for the best finisher in the deck for me, but it sounds like they've been mediocre for you. You also seem to have a more tribal meta than I do. Cards like Harsh Mercy and Coat of Arms are auto-includes for me due to my meta having few tribal decks.
Ashes to Ashes
Positives
Negatives
This card was initially added to my cube when my cube was much weaker and has continued to be a favorite for my playgroup as my cube has become much leaner. Having removal that exiles two creatures for three mana has been very powerful, but the 5 life is a heavy cost.
What do you all think?
I also think the comparison to time walk is a terrible one. Your opponent still gets to untap their permanents, draw, play lands, ramp, cast any creatures, planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, draw spells, etc.. they want to improve their position, and hold up mana for counterspells.
Teferis protections is great primarily because it protects against Cyclonic Rift in commander, which isn't format defining in cube and doesn't really require answers. Hard Pass. Use cards that are more flexible that do other things too like Boros Charm, even if they protect from less situations.
Bear Umbra
The poor mans Sword of Feast and Famine. The card can pay for itself the turn it comes into play and has the potential to make future turns very explosive. The lands untap before blockers are assigned allowing you to play instant speed interaction to clear the board the same turn. Almost reminds me of the Kaladesh "Expertise" cycle in that it is almost free to cast and has a very high ceiling. Has Totem Armor to help mitigate 2 for 1 scenarios.
Thoughts? Also what Enchant Creatures do you find playable in cube?
I love this type of question as it's hard to properly answer. What makes a value creature? If a creature can get exiled immediately after being cast without any value, does that automatically make it not a value creature? If so, Consecrated Sphynx isn't a value creature, which makes me think that might not be the only way one should judge value. Do death triggers make a creature a value creature? What about haste, or creatures with valuable effects once in the graveyard? It's not black and white.
I think the best no-value fatties that are meant to be hard cast normally (and not cheated in with reanimate, sneak/show, etc) are probably Baneslayer Angel, Lyra Dawnbringer, Kalonian Hydra, Carnage Tyrant, Abyssal Persecutor and Doom Whisperer (which is arguably a value creature), off the top of my head.
I actually prefer to run a certain amount of expensive creatures that don't have value to keep removal good. Too great of a density of value creatures makes removal actively bad and board wipe essential to recover when you fall behind. What playable green 5 cmc creature sees cube play and isn't a value card besides Kalonian Hydra?