This was about the list I had in mind. Just a few issues/ Questions that came to my mind, which I do not have an answer to:
- Regarding manabase: Is Marsh Flats good for enabling Revolt, or Maybe Prismatic Vista plus an extra Wastes to fetch for? And how many Manlands, are ideal, and should it be Shambling Vent or Mutavault (Maybe plus Urborg)? Or in General, how many colorless Sources does the deck Need?
- How good is Eldrazi Displacer in the deck? Without the Flickerwisp interactions, I am not sure if Blight Herder or Endbringer aren't the better alternative for the lategame.
- I was thinking about Dryad Militant instead or in addition to Relic, to apply some early pressure. She also does some nice work regarding Exiling. Not sure though if Relic isn't the better Card regarding our more Midrange-y strategy.
Again, I am aware that asking Questions is easier than working on answers, but Maybe These thoughts are already tested by somebody. Just wanted to get an idea what may be interesting additions to the archetype.
Hi there, nice to see that the deck is still popular, I also think it should be quite potent in the current graveyard-heavy meta. I am also interested in the deck and think about playing it.
Can you give a little more insight about the matchups you were facing?
Hexdrinker is good because it does double duty in two very different types of match ups.
Vs Tron, Ad Naus,Scapeshift, and other combo, we just want to go fast, and increasing the times a simple 2/1 on turn one is a big boost to the deck.
these match up are normally won or lost around turn 4 and before we see our 3rd land drop.
I don't think another 2 Power 1-drop is gonna solve any of the Problems we have against these decks - because if that would be the case, Kessig Prowler would have been the solution to our Problems.
By the way, I think the current possibilities of Mono Green offer more than enough 1-drops. And by cutting 2- or 3-drops for it, I would guess you cut one of the biggest strengths of the archetype, which is the massive power from Turn 4 on. If you would count on the power of flooding the opponent with 1-drops, I guess Zoo can do this better.
On the other hand take UW control, and Jund, many times the match up comes down to trading 1 for 1 for a few turn as we play creature and they remove them.
Top decking Hexdrinker with 4 lands on turn 8 seems much better as there might be a window where we can go 4 mana 4/4 protection from removal, and the following turn hitting in for 6.
Sorry, but I think topdecking Hexdrinker against UW Control or Jund won't solve anything, because These decks have more than enough ways to remove even a creature with protection from instants (Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Maelstrom Pulse, Liliana, Tarmogoyf, just to Name a few), and we are not able to protect the leveled hexdrinker with Vines or Defense.
And please also Keep in mind, that Level up is Sorcery-Speed, so we might invest three mana in a single turn into Hexdrinker, just to loose our ceature to a Bolt/Path/Push/K-Command/anything we cannot react to.
So TLDR, I think the Card Looks interesting, but I don't think it will add anything meaningful to our pool, since it does not fit our strategy. It basically becomes really relevant at a time where the game should actually be over.
Agree - if you take a look at Legacy, where Mongoose is played in the Canadian threshold decks, those look a lot more like somthing we would call Temur Delver in Modern. So you would Need Thought Scour to make the Card really work, and neither the blue Splash nor Faithless Looting sounds very appealing for the existing RG/Naya builds. Mongoose would make Zoo also susceptible to maindeck Graveyard-hate like Scooze or Relic, which is totally irrelevant for the current builds.
So I guess Mongoose would Need a different build around it than the lists we saw here so far, or that would qualify as "Zoo".
Maybe the original RG Hollow One decks can use it?
A straight upgrade to Prey Upon, so definitely interesting for those using it so far.
Not sure if this has the potential to outclass Dismember, but I see the possibility that it might be something comparable to the Searing-effects in Burn, where you have removal and extra Damage combined in one Card. I already liked this effect on Hunt the Hunter, which I play in my Sideboard.
Btw, I really like the first look on Horizons, since it looks like it's supporting fair strategies so far. Also, the pseudo-Force being only relevant on non-creature spells is great News for Aggro-strategies like ours.
I don't really like the design, and the Name is totally uninspiring ("what's the easiest choice for a Name so that everybody knows what we are doing here"), but the game design is hopefully not too oppressive.
Doesn't Need any Goyfs (a lot of Fetches though), and you can definitely use the Burn staples for the Sideboard.
In order to replace Goyf you want as many cheap undercosted beaters as possible, Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Experiment One are good examples here. You already finish the curve with the BTE/Herbalist/Bushwhacker interaction.
The deck is really fun and explosive, although not very resilient - especially against opposing Goyfs.
I also like the configuration posted by deeperblue, which utilizes the Pelt Collector/Vexing Devil "combo".
Edit: Totally agree on the Fastlands like Copperline Gorge. The use of Nacatl and Kird Ape make These lands practically unplayable in this Version, since you cannot afford the loss of power. The lifeloss of Fetch + Shock is hardly relevant, since you're faster than most other decks.
1) I don't have any fetch lands yet but I am debating picking them up at some point. I did have a couple questions regarding their usage. When is the best time to crack a fetch and is it ideal to grab a shock land with it? Or is it better to grab a basic Forest to mitigate the life loss?
Is your Question directed at the usage in Stompy, or in general? Because this depends heavily on the deck and Manabase you are playing, and on the Situation in the game.
In Stompy, of Course you always grab a Basic, because most lists play Fetches only to trigger Narnam Renegade.
There are a few exceptions that utilize Temple Garden for a White Splash, in this case you would Always get the Shock land as soon as possible, since your Options of deck Manipulation and ensuring you have the Right mana available are limited.
My current deck runs 4X of Pelt Collecter/Experiment One/Dryad Militant. is it best to run 4 Experiment One OR 4 Pelt Collector but not necessarily both? Or would a 4/2 split, in addition to the 4 Dryad Militant be more ideal?
This depends also on your personal preferences, but I agree with phaircaron, more than 4 Evolvers can make for strange starts, where you Play only 1/1s without an early possibility to make them bigger.
And in the direct comparison, Ex1 is definitely the winner for me, since I think Regeneration is more important than Trample, and 2 counters is much more easy to accomplish than 3 (in fact, most of the time the Ex1 will be dead before the second counter).
Personally, I Play 4 Experiments, 4 Dryads (agree with Phaircaron again, they are crucial in the curent meta) and 3 Renegades.
Would anyone recommend investing in the fetch lands now? Or waiting until Modern Horizons? My understanding is that fetches won't be reprinted in Horizons so I certainly don't expect the prices to drop much, if at all, but some of the speculation I've read was that we may get some new form of fetch land. Has anyone read anything like this? Has there been any official word about fetch reprints?
There will definitely be no Reprint of the Fetchlands in Horizons. A Kind of replacement is possible, but I think its not very likely.
Investing in the Fetches (to Play with them, of Course, not as a monetary Investment!) sounds like a reasonable choice to me. No guarantees that they will maintain their value, but since they are relevant in all eternal Formats, they are not likely to loose much of value.
And if you plan to get the Fetches for Stompy, you can start with Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath, which are the cheapest Fetches you will find.
I noticed that Damping Sphere isn't included in the primer and no one appears to be running it in their sideboard. Is there a reason why Stompy doesn't use it at all?
I run 2 Spheres in the SB, mainly against Tron and Amulet Titan. As far as I am concerned the Sphere is one of our few Outs against Tron, so it should definitely be in the Primer.
I found Phoenix to be close, we have actually quite ok chances of simply racing them. Avatar provides Reach against Phoenix, a lot of Stompy Decks Play Scooze in the Maindeck, and Thing in the Ice does not block Steel Leaf Champion. Also, Dryad Militant has some relevant text here.
But still, the Turn 3 Thing flip or 6 attacking power on Turn 2 thanks to Morphose + Faithless Looting is still scary. I guess our plan here is race at all cost, and have that one removal for the Thing.
Hi all!
I posted this list in stompy thread, but maybe it's better suited here. My main deck rUG evole is not doing great in this meta, so i'm trying more aggressive gruul-style of stompy now. Any comments w'd be welcome!
The idea is to get some creatures in the field, hold up interaction, and stretch to midrangey play if needed after sideboarding. The mainboard cindervines chance places with blossoming defense quite often, as i'm not a fan of the latter here. Some removal might be better.
I've also considered adding splash of white, for obvious paths etc. and especially as i'd like to try proclamation of rebirth in sideboard. Then again, not sure if splash is needed, as it is i like my chances against burn and moons are nice too. Any suggestions for red removal?
[/deck]
I already saw your post in the Stompy thread, since I am a Long year Stompy Player, but I guess that one really fits better in here.
To your deck: I guess you're mixing two archetypes here, while simultaneously leaving out the key components of each one. So, for the Stompy part you are missing the Power boost of Steel Leaf Champion and Aspect of Hydra, while for the Zoo part the deck is missing the explosiveness of Wild Nacatl and the BTE/Bushwhacker Combo.
The 8 evolvers + Renegade and Vexing Devil is a nice start, also including 4 Dryad is really good in the current meta. But in my eyes you are lacking a consistent plan after that - you either want to smash the Opponent with raw power (Stompy), go wide and fast (Zoo) or bring the last Damage through (Burn). But I guess Scooze and Spellbreaker dilute your deck into something midrang-esk, which it cannot support.
Also, Relic and Cindervines do not seem maindeck-worthy in your strategy. You have exactly one plan in this archetypes, which is killing the Opponent. The disruption belongs to the Sideboard.
Really looking forward to some testing results, because maybe I am wrong with my assessment. But just from seeing the list, that would be my conclusion.
Thus far I don’t think anything spoiled is better than just running an extra threat in it’s stead.
Agree! These Cards seem, as mentioned before, as a late game tool, which automatically excludes them from our Primary gameplan. These look more like Sideboard Solutions for grindy Matches, but even for those I think there are better Solutions, e.g. Lead the Stampede.
Thanks for all the thoughts guys! Some more questions based off feedback, no particular order, feel free to only reply to some and thanks again!
I'm usually a pretty big fan of redundancy, and running 2 ofs always throws me off, is 2 removal spells enough to get it done?
Depends on the matchup, but 3-4 in the 75 seems alright. There are games where you just simply can't survice without killing an opposing creature (Death's Shadow, Counter's Company).
Do you mulligan if you don't have a 1-drop creature?
Generally yes, a 1-drop on turn 1 generally applies the pressure you Need. But of Course there are exceptions, e.g. the Hands that involve Treetop Village, where you are Kind of happy to start with a tapped land and then go on with 2- and 3-drops.
Is Tusker preferable to Ooze if you don't anticipate seeing many graveyard decks?
Yes, I guess so. I definitely have lost game before, where the 1 extra damage was missing. Don't get me wrong, Ooze is the strictly better Card in a vaccuum, but there are lots of game where it is just a Grizzly Bears. Personally, I run only 1 in the maindeck, another one in the sideboard. Also, it provides only 1 Devotion.
The Oasis seems a bit strange to me, what's the appeal over another Village/Forest?
Oasis gives you some extra value from your lands in the "lategame" (after turn 4). You will quickly hit the Point in the game where you enter topdeck-mode, and in this case you Need every help you can get. In this case, Oasis is basically an extra pump spell, just like Treetop Village is an extra creature. The lifeloss is hardly relevant.
Would the deck run any banned cards if they were available? Deathrite?
Yes, actually I played 2 Gitaxian Probes, when they were legal - free Information and increased redundancy, great! But the Card is definitely banned for a reason (even in Legacy).
Deathrite Shaman would not help the deck in my opinion, for the same reason that Noble Hierarch is not played in the deck. Mana creatures just do not provide enough extra damage and tempo to be relevant here.
Has Titanic Brawl supplanted Prey Upon for our purposes? Instant speed is very useful to make it an opponent's-turn or mid-combat trick, and we run lots of creatures that get +1/+1 counters and for those creatures it's as cheap as Prey Upon as well.
Good Point, I am actually testing that one right now. Seems good so far, but somehow I forgot that one.
I guess that makes for a fine start. You might want to cut 2 Leatherback Baloths (since 6 3-drops seem to be the Maximum to be aggressive enough) and 2-4 Pelts or Experiments (since more than 4 Evolvers might be too many to use them adequately).
I would suggest "investing" these free Slots in some removal, which is missing completely - Dismember or even Prey Upon could do the Job here. In the Manabase, I have to disagree with Mtgthewary, in my opinion 20 lands is more than enough. 1-2 Treetop Villages might be a good idea there, to ensure a little lategame power.
Also, 2-3 2-drops could be good to smooth out the curve, maybe Kalonian Tusker or even Garruk's Companion or Scavening Ooze (if that's budget-friendly enough).
But as I said, an absolut solid start, just needs a little Tuning. Have a look through the former 10 pages of this Thread, there you'll find some more lists for Inspiration. Good luck!
@Mtgthewary: You might want to be a little more specific when making such suggestions, I guess otherwise this Person might not learn why these changes could be relevant.
- Regarding manabase: Is Marsh Flats good for enabling Revolt, or Maybe Prismatic Vista plus an extra Wastes to fetch for? And how many Manlands, are ideal, and should it be Shambling Vent or Mutavault (Maybe plus Urborg)? Or in General, how many colorless Sources does the deck Need?
- How good is Eldrazi Displacer in the deck? Without the Flickerwisp interactions, I am not sure if Blight Herder or Endbringer aren't the better alternative for the lategame.
- I was thinking about Dryad Militant instead or in addition to Relic, to apply some early pressure. She also does some nice work regarding Exiling. Not sure though if Relic isn't the better Card regarding our more Midrange-y strategy.
- How About Lingering Souls in the maindeck or Sideboard?
Again, I am aware that asking Questions is easier than working on answers, but Maybe These thoughts are already tested by somebody. Just wanted to get an idea what may be interesting additions to the archetype.
Can you give a little more insight about the matchups you were facing?
Anyone here who plays this list and can say a little more?
I don't think another 2 Power 1-drop is gonna solve any of the Problems we have against these decks - because if that would be the case, Kessig Prowler would have been the solution to our Problems.
By the way, I think the current possibilities of Mono Green offer more than enough 1-drops. And by cutting 2- or 3-drops for it, I would guess you cut one of the biggest strengths of the archetype, which is the massive power from Turn 4 on. If you would count on the power of flooding the opponent with 1-drops, I guess Zoo can do this better.
Sorry, but I think topdecking Hexdrinker against UW Control or Jund won't solve anything, because These decks have more than enough ways to remove even a creature with protection from instants (Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Maelstrom Pulse, Liliana, Tarmogoyf, just to Name a few), and we are not able to protect the leveled hexdrinker with Vines or Defense.
And please also Keep in mind, that Level up is Sorcery-Speed, so we might invest three mana in a single turn into Hexdrinker, just to loose our ceature to a Bolt/Path/Push/K-Command/anything we cannot react to.
So TLDR, I think the Card Looks interesting, but I don't think it will add anything meaningful to our pool, since it does not fit our strategy. It basically becomes really relevant at a time where the game should actually be over.
So I guess Mongoose would Need a different build around it than the lists we saw here so far, or that would qualify as "Zoo".
Maybe the original RG Hollow One decks can use it?
Not sure if this has the potential to outclass Dismember, but I see the possibility that it might be something comparable to the Searing-effects in Burn, where you have removal and extra Damage combined in one Card. I already liked this effect on Hunt the Hunter, which I play in my Sideboard.
Btw, I really like the first look on Horizons, since it looks like it's supporting fair strategies so far. Also, the pseudo-Force being only relevant on non-creature spells is great News for Aggro-strategies like ours.
I don't really like the design, and the Name is totally uninspiring ("what's the easiest choice for a Name so that everybody knows what we are doing here"), but the game design is hopefully not too oppressive.
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Enchantments
1 Rancor
//Instants
3 Atarka's Command
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Experiment One
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Goblin Guide
4 Hidden Herbalists
3 Kird Ape
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Vexing Devil
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Boros Charm
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Dryad Militant
1 Forked Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
1 Molten Rain
2 Path to Exile
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Doesn't Need any Goyfs (a lot of Fetches though), and you can definitely use the Burn staples for the Sideboard.
In order to replace Goyf you want as many cheap undercosted beaters as possible, Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and Experiment One are good examples here. You already finish the curve with the BTE/Herbalist/Bushwhacker interaction.
The deck is really fun and explosive, although not very resilient - especially against opposing Goyfs.
I also like the configuration posted by deeperblue, which utilizes the Pelt Collector/Vexing Devil "combo".
Edit: Totally agree on the Fastlands like Copperline Gorge. The use of Nacatl and Kird Ape make These lands practically unplayable in this Version, since you cannot afford the loss of power. The lifeloss of Fetch + Shock is hardly relevant, since you're faster than most other decks.
Is your Question directed at the usage in Stompy, or in general? Because this depends heavily on the deck and Manabase you are playing, and on the Situation in the game.
In Stompy, of Course you always grab a Basic, because most lists play Fetches only to trigger Narnam Renegade.
There are a few exceptions that utilize Temple Garden for a White Splash, in this case you would Always get the Shock land as soon as possible, since your Options of deck Manipulation and ensuring you have the Right mana available are limited.
This depends also on your personal preferences, but I agree with phaircaron, more than 4 Evolvers can make for strange starts, where you Play only 1/1s without an early possibility to make them bigger.
And in the direct comparison, Ex1 is definitely the winner for me, since I think Regeneration is more important than Trample, and 2 counters is much more easy to accomplish than 3 (in fact, most of the time the Ex1 will be dead before the second counter).
Personally, I Play 4 Experiments, 4 Dryads (agree with Phaircaron again, they are crucial in the curent meta) and 3 Renegades.
There will definitely be no Reprint of the Fetchlands in Horizons. A Kind of replacement is possible, but I think its not very likely.
Investing in the Fetches (to Play with them, of Course, not as a monetary Investment!) sounds like a reasonable choice to me. No guarantees that they will maintain their value, but since they are relevant in all eternal Formats, they are not likely to loose much of value.
And if you plan to get the Fetches for Stompy, you can start with Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath, which are the cheapest Fetches you will find.
I run 2 Spheres in the SB, mainly against Tron and Amulet Titan. As far as I am concerned the Sphere is one of our few Outs against Tron, so it should definitely be in the Primer.
I found Phoenix to be close, we have actually quite ok chances of simply racing them. Avatar provides Reach against Phoenix, a lot of Stompy Decks Play Scooze in the Maindeck, and Thing in the Ice does not block Steel Leaf Champion. Also, Dryad Militant has some relevant text here.
But still, the Turn 3 Thing flip or 6 attacking power on Turn 2 thanks to Morphose + Faithless Looting is still scary. I guess our plan here is race at all cost, and have that one removal for the Thing.
I already saw your post in the Stompy thread, since I am a Long year Stompy Player, but I guess that one really fits better in here.
To your deck: I guess you're mixing two archetypes here, while simultaneously leaving out the key components of each one. So, for the Stompy part you are missing the Power boost of Steel Leaf Champion and Aspect of Hydra, while for the Zoo part the deck is missing the explosiveness of Wild Nacatl and the BTE/Bushwhacker Combo.
The 8 evolvers + Renegade and Vexing Devil is a nice start, also including 4 Dryad is really good in the current meta. But in my eyes you are lacking a consistent plan after that - you either want to smash the Opponent with raw power (Stompy), go wide and fast (Zoo) or bring the last Damage through (Burn). But I guess Scooze and Spellbreaker dilute your deck into something midrang-esk, which it cannot support.
Also, Relic and Cindervines do not seem maindeck-worthy in your strategy. You have exactly one plan in this archetypes, which is killing the Opponent. The disruption belongs to the Sideboard.
So in my opinion, switch These Cards for either Steel Leaf Champion and Aspect of Hydra, Wild Nacatl + Burning Tree Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker (and Temple Garden + Sacred Foundry for the Manabase), or maybe a couple of Boros Charms and other Burn Cards.
Really looking forward to some testing results, because maybe I am wrong with my assessment. But just from seeing the list, that would be my conclusion.
100% agree, the potential upside is not even close worth the Risk. And since we have Steel Leaf Champion, Tokens shouldn't be that of a Problem.
Agree! These Cards seem, as mentioned before, as a late game tool, which automatically excludes them from our Primary gameplan. These look more like Sideboard Solutions for grindy Matches, but even for those I think there are better Solutions, e.g. Lead the Stampede.
Depends on the matchup, but 3-4 in the 75 seems alright. There are games where you just simply can't survice without killing an opposing creature (Death's Shadow, Counter's Company).
Generally yes, a 1-drop on turn 1 generally applies the pressure you Need. But of Course there are exceptions, e.g. the Hands that involve Treetop Village, where you are Kind of happy to start with a tapped land and then go on with 2- and 3-drops.
Yes, I guess so. I definitely have lost game before, where the 1 extra damage was missing. Don't get me wrong, Ooze is the strictly better Card in a vaccuum, but there are lots of game where it is just a Grizzly Bears. Personally, I run only 1 in the maindeck, another one in the sideboard. Also, it provides only 1 Devotion.
Oasis gives you some extra value from your lands in the "lategame" (after turn 4). You will quickly hit the Point in the game where you enter topdeck-mode, and in this case you Need every help you can get. In this case, Oasis is basically an extra pump spell, just like Treetop Village is an extra creature. The lifeloss is hardly relevant.
The non-Budget Option here is Horizon Canopy.
Yes, actually I played 2 Gitaxian Probes, when they were legal - free Information and increased redundancy, great! But the Card is definitely banned for a reason (even in Legacy).
Deathrite Shaman would not help the deck in my opinion, for the same reason that Noble Hierarch is not played in the deck. Mana creatures just do not provide enough extra damage and tempo to be relevant here.
Good Point, I am actually testing that one right now. Seems good so far, but somehow I forgot that one.
I guess that makes for a fine start. You might want to cut 2 Leatherback Baloths (since 6 3-drops seem to be the Maximum to be aggressive enough) and 2-4 Pelts or Experiments (since more than 4 Evolvers might be too many to use them adequately).
I would suggest "investing" these free Slots in some removal, which is missing completely - Dismember or even Prey Upon could do the Job here. In the Manabase, I have to disagree with Mtgthewary, in my opinion 20 lands is more than enough. 1-2 Treetop Villages might be a good idea there, to ensure a little lategame power.
Also, 2-3 2-drops could be good to smooth out the curve, maybe Kalonian Tusker or even Garruk's Companion or Scavening Ooze (if that's budget-friendly enough).
But as I said, an absolut solid start, just needs a little Tuning. Have a look through the former 10 pages of this Thread, there you'll find some more lists for Inspiration. Good luck!
@Mtgthewary: You might want to be a little more specific when making such suggestions, I guess otherwise this Person might not learn why these changes could be relevant.