Boros is one of my favorite color schemes, and I used to build a lot of R, W, RW, or RWB decks so I wanted to chime in.
One of the boros commanders that was most effective to me was Brion Stoutarm. He has very obvious "I Win" synergy with cards like Serra Avatar, if you're looking to cheese. But most importantly I felt his ability plays very effectively with the colors strengths, using cards like Threaten, Word of Seizing, and even hidden gems like Jabari's Influence to gain control and fling cards back.
I think people are putting too much emphasis in this format on card draw, while I think it's important I'd say ramp & tutoring are far more important. To counteract this Red/White needs to be VERY efficient, as long as each card creates innate card advantage whether it be Kiki-Jiki, Flametongue Kavu, Imperial Recruiter, Sun Titan, Restoration Angel, Karmic Guide, etc. and spells you have some of the best removal whether it be the Swords/Path or Return to Dust and board sweeps. And Insurrection and Vicious Shadows are really strong finishers. The shortcoming of card draw can be made up with things like Land Tax, Tithe, and a lot of other cards that can give you CA in lands, and just some of the go-to mana rocks are very useful but I try to really go light since you really want things like Austere Command and Akroma's Veangance, in fact if you can mix in indestructibility with Boros charm and things that give you indestructibility you can use that as a game ender.
For the shortcomings of Boros though I'd say:
1) It's not particular fast. Tends to be more mid-range agro based, I think there's a definite window it can dominate mid to early late game but if game goes on really long I remember falling dead to a lot of blue control decks and G/B/x recursion engines that will get like... some graveyard/Greater Good engine going and go retarded and get a million lands in play, or some Child of Alara decks that ramp and can blow up the board and drop planeswalkers and ult, these are just examples where as a Red/White you don't have the same engine and will fall to those kind of decks if you allow them to get their enchantments and broken engines going.
2) Lack of tutoring and recursion. You can't guarantee to be able to get the cards you want, this limits the type of decks you can really construct, if you're putting together a lot of combo pieces or synergies you can't you need to rely more on redundancy to ensure it'll operate consistently.
3) There's not a lot of just ridiculously "unfair" creatures and spells, Boros tends to be very straightforward removal, sweeps, and combat based. There's just not a lot of Tidespout Tyrants, Memnarchs, Avenger of Zendikar into haste KO's, Praetors and such as much as some of the other Colors, exeption maybe Iona but there's reasons she's shunned so a lot of people don't play her.
4) The format itself. This is just my experience in past, but people play so pillow fort that the style of Boros agro ends up being the decks that takes out 1, 2, or 3 players and loses-- it's because so many decks these days don't have aggro in mind, Boros wants to attack and play tempo and so many decks just want to Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and defend so just by the nature of the deck you will always be the guy with Inferno Titans and angels up that the lazy playgroup sees as a threat, group cucks you most of the game, then the control player that everyone ignored much of the game swoops in at end unchecked and wins it like you warned people he would. This is more of the psychological side of the game that I feel is a flaw, but I'm afraid will always be there, in Commander there's sort of a stigma in aggressive decks that swing for damage where there is none (amazingly) for everyone turtling for an hour and losing in one turn to someone "going off", it's become the sad nature of this format.
I like your idea with Sneak Attack, I think that would be the approach I'd use, cards like Quicksilver Amulet and Winding Canyons so you can flash your stuff into play, then you can get best value. Cards like Gratuitous Violence and Vicious Shadows could be good vinishers, same as Insurrection. Don't forget about gems like Desolation Giant as well. GL
In the spirit of discussion (not to be too argumentative), I actually disagree with cards like Brand & Homeward Path-- I mean, definitely run them if you're gonna meta someone really bad, but I'm just saying I think they're still subpar options...
They're subpar because they're not only narrow in JUST dealing with the "theft cards" (whereas sac outlets and bounce stuff can be universally useful in many situations), but also I don't think they're even good at dealing with most steal spells (with exception of maybe Insurrection) because... I used to play Zedruu and grixis Threaten/Theft decks all the time and 99% of the time your opponent will have sac outlets themselves after then gain control of it. Casting something like Brand they'll just City of Shadows exile it or some shenanigans like that.
Personally I think cards like: Erratic Portal, Crystal Shard, Goblin Bombardment, Evolutionary Leap, Greater Good, Viscera Seer, Claws of Gix and stuff like that are more universally better to protect your board.
^ agreed, if someone is playing a meme commander like Zedru and crushing you your deck is just too slow and lacks removal. Play Animar or maybe Mathas, Fiend Seeker mid range and just beat him down. If he’s gaining control of stuff... SAC OUTLETS my man, get sac lands, sac enchantments, sac everything I’m telling you. Play dirty, use contamination/blood moon and build around it, use Grave Pact, more rocks and removal and play faster. Usually the best players accelerate faster have most tutors and more answers. Again I don’t know this guy but I’d play something like Mathas targeting his guys and politically beat him down while rest of guys draw off whooping his stuffs arse and he doesn’t that’s prolly how I’d do this. Because I’m guessing this dude plays dirty, like Captain Sissay into Gaeas Cradle Avenger of Z dirty... u will never beat those decks playing “fair” and slow with bombs.
Let me refer to the OP, because I have a pretty big concern with much of the cards that've been holding down this list, because I strongly believe they go against the original intent of the "Top 50 Best 'all around' Cards List". (And btw I was a contributor back when this list was just getting started on original account, so I'm not new to Commander Forum here)
I'll refer to original question...
Q: What makes _________ a good enough card to be on the list?
A: We are looking for all around usefulness of cards. If a card is an amazing combo piece in a niche style of deck or way then it usually isn't something we want to consider. We want cards that belong in a large variety of decks. The cards that should make this list up should be very versatile and useful to a lot of decks.
So RIGHT OFF THE BAT, I have to seriously question cards like:
...and etc, the list goes on, those are just the ones I caught first glance. Most of these cards are only truly strong if built around either a tribal or dedicated deck-- for example you're not gonna' just throw Goblin Matrons or Cataclysm in your 3 color or 5 color mostly "good stuff" decks that don't run the tribal or don't build around some Land Recursion theme, same goes for Laboratory Maniac too, these are cards that are powerful but require a dedicated theme or combo to maximize. Same goes for Scarecrone, amazing card in an artifact utilizing deck like Sydri, Galvanic Genius or Sharuum but you wouldn't just throw it in some GRW creature deck that only runs Duplicant/Solemn, it's too narrow.
To juxtapose against these, since I mentioned Goblin Matron-- Imerial Recruiter on the other had definitely belongs, because not only is its tutor ability powerful and works as a great sac outlet to skullclamp and enchantments and such, but its universally good. For example if you had a 3-color deck with red and had this creature you'd be almost hardpressed to not run it, it'd be a very very rare occurrence you wouldn't be able to tutor for clones, duplicants, Oracle of Muldaya, Kiki, or a million other ways it'd be useful-- Matron on the other hand ONLY gets goblins and clones, this is powerful but only in regard to dedicated tribal. Another comparison, Azami vs Mulldrifer--> I can toss Mulldrifter in just about any deck, even 4-5 colored decks and its just good, you couldn't say the same for Azami regardless how OP she is as a commander.
Again, I just have to question how some of these cards slid by this list. Dark Ritual is another that has no place, someone probably pointing out its utility in some Zur combo deck, this is a horrible card in most decks splashing black, I'd say it's close to the last card I'd ever want to draw in majority of decks with black.
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I think one of the things holding this Thread are these sorta "dedicated" OP cards that are only OP in specific decks, and the OVEREMPHASIS of card advantage and powerful sweeps clogging up the list. We need more Massacre Worm & Avenger of Zendikar and just good powerful cards on the list, and less Ancient Craving and Dark Confidant crap cards that are justified in "Well it's the BEST card advantage card in Mono Black so we CANT take it off the list, sorry". While I'll agree utility is important, and cards like Trinket Mage, Weathered Wayfarer, and Baleful Strix are almost too good to not include we gotta' make exceptions sometimes or pose limitations so the list isn't saturated with too much utility-- it'd almost be a good idea to separate the list from Support vs Power House cards, so I don't have to dictate on making a cut whether an Imperial Recruiter is more powerful than an Infernal Titan, or an Oracle of Muldaya is more powerful of a card than an Avenger of Zendikar. This is another problem that I found in making a top 50 list like this.
Varina, lich queen has me brewing up a new deck idea built around the cards like lich.
That's awesome, I think you and I are definitely on the same page here. So I had an Ertai, the CorruptedUBW Deck back in the day, which used a few "interesting" combos and game enders to seal the game, so I feel like I could be some help.
Here's some ideas:
(1)Lich + Reverse the Sands
If you can get Urborg/Coffers, just drop Lich and 0 yourself and go for the YOLO Hail Mary play lol (if it works you'll get a MEGALUL, if Reverse the Sands gets countered, it'll be a hilariously epic fail but that's what this game is all about).
(2)Diabloic Intent + Academy Rector --> Omniscience + Rune-scarred Demon --> Cavern Harpy (draw your whole deck, play lich so you don't die, etc. Time Walk/Archaeomancer there's a million ways to win)
(3)Kaervek's Spite + Academy Rector --> Barren Glory
Another way to cheese your way to victory, just cast with Rector out at end of someone's turn... win, ez game. And I know it's generally taboo to have any Unglued or whatever... but this is the only time it's 100% acceptable to have The Cheese Stands Alone instead of Barren Glory, in fact you're a better person if you do!
I dig the donate route... Although I don't like the Illusion's of Grandeur. I'd also support cards like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Death Pits of Wrath/Pestilence. Also Darien, King of Kjeldor with Lich would be hilarious, not that it would be OP but something like that with No Mercy/Lich is hilarious
This is where I inherently disagree with a lot of the "pain" strategies here. When I think about "In what situation would I actually be able to cast this mid-late game and not have it instantly destroyed?", AND "In what situation would players ACTUALLY commit late game to abusing her ability on a player?"-- an easy answer: When it's their only real choice. If you tap out your mana, drop a Contamination followed by Xancha on opponent for example, and it sticks.. your opponents might have zero plays for several turn-- not to mention, drop this on the player that's winning at 24 life with a lockdown board and watch as your 1-2 other players calculate how much mana to draw him out and kill him. So that's the political side, but without a Lock piece players might use her ability maybe once... but they really have no incentive to go full retard unless there's literally no other options IMO.
I know, I know... I usually hate this kinda infinite "you lose/I win" combo crap, but it's a little bit too tempting especially in a game where it's your only out. It's way too easy here, especially when your own Commander provides the Win Cond (don't even have to search for it), I'd throw this in to cheese the last player, and... screw it, I'd honestly just throw in Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience while I'm at it since they're pretty good on their own and its just one extra way to cheese someone out in a pinch (And lets be honest, is there anything more hilarious than crushing someone's dreams when they've got a board filled flooded with huge pumped up elf/zombies/etc and they're gonna win the game next turn?), the answer is no
Play weenie Grixis BRU, if he's using weenie decks like Grenzo, SIsay, and Meriek... I ran a pretty strong Tetsuo Umezawa (although you could use whatever), and it was just low curve "attrition"-- lots of ETB removal (feshbag, Man'O War, flametongue kavu, Fire Imp, Duplicant, Shriekmaw) but also low curve acceleration and utility cards like Trinket Mage, kite, Imperial Recruiter, Solemn, Mulldrifter etc. Basically how I won was play my hand out faster and accelerate faster, use tutors/wheels/time spirals to reset and keep going. Then the win condition I'd have Time Walks/Archaomancer, or Recruiter-->Kikki-->Pestermite to win on spot, but also things like Goblin Bombardment/Gravepact or Curse of the Cabal or Vicious Shadows and more "tactical" seal the win cards.
I feel this would be effective because the way to beat control like that is to just play faster than them and pressure them with a ton of removal, like every card you play should be quick and generate fast CA or should etb and pressure them. Even playing a tutor or Recruiter to get a Viashino Heretic shutting down his artfacts can lock ppl out all game... sometimes ppl try to think big bombs in order to counter a strategy but sometimes its little utility creatures that can shut ppl out of games, for example I think I've probably won more games off Gravepact or Goblin Bombardment than almost any other huge bomb cards.
One of the boros commanders that was most effective to me was Brion Stoutarm. He has very obvious "I Win" synergy with cards like Serra Avatar, if you're looking to cheese. But most importantly I felt his ability plays very effectively with the colors strengths, using cards like Threaten, Word of Seizing, and even hidden gems like Jabari's Influence to gain control and fling cards back.
I think people are putting too much emphasis in this format on card draw, while I think it's important I'd say ramp & tutoring are far more important. To counteract this Red/White needs to be VERY efficient, as long as each card creates innate card advantage whether it be Kiki-Jiki, Flametongue Kavu, Imperial Recruiter, Sun Titan, Restoration Angel, Karmic Guide, etc. and spells you have some of the best removal whether it be the Swords/Path or Return to Dust and board sweeps. And Insurrection and Vicious Shadows are really strong finishers. The shortcoming of card draw can be made up with things like Land Tax, Tithe, and a lot of other cards that can give you CA in lands, and just some of the go-to mana rocks are very useful but I try to really go light since you really want things like Austere Command and Akroma's Veangance, in fact if you can mix in indestructibility with Boros charm and things that give you indestructibility you can use that as a game ender.
For the shortcomings of Boros though I'd say:
1) It's not particular fast. Tends to be more mid-range agro based, I think there's a definite window it can dominate mid to early late game but if game goes on really long I remember falling dead to a lot of blue control decks and G/B/x recursion engines that will get like... some graveyard/Greater Good engine going and go retarded and get a million lands in play, or some Child of Alara decks that ramp and can blow up the board and drop planeswalkers and ult, these are just examples where as a Red/White you don't have the same engine and will fall to those kind of decks if you allow them to get their enchantments and broken engines going.
2) Lack of tutoring and recursion. You can't guarantee to be able to get the cards you want, this limits the type of decks you can really construct, if you're putting together a lot of combo pieces or synergies you can't you need to rely more on redundancy to ensure it'll operate consistently.
3) There's not a lot of just ridiculously "unfair" creatures and spells, Boros tends to be very straightforward removal, sweeps, and combat based. There's just not a lot of Tidespout Tyrants, Memnarchs, Avenger of Zendikar into haste KO's, Praetors and such as much as some of the other Colors, exeption maybe Iona but there's reasons she's shunned so a lot of people don't play her.
4) The format itself. This is just my experience in past, but people play so pillow fort that the style of Boros agro ends up being the decks that takes out 1, 2, or 3 players and loses-- it's because so many decks these days don't have aggro in mind, Boros wants to attack and play tempo and so many decks just want to Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and defend so just by the nature of the deck you will always be the guy with Inferno Titans and angels up that the lazy playgroup sees as a threat, group cucks you most of the game, then the control player that everyone ignored much of the game swoops in at end unchecked and wins it like you warned people he would. This is more of the psychological side of the game that I feel is a flaw, but I'm afraid will always be there, in Commander there's sort of a stigma in aggressive decks that swing for damage where there is none (amazingly) for everyone turtling for an hour and losing in one turn to someone "going off", it's become the sad nature of this format.
Cards for protecting Brion:
Gain control:
Just win:
Serra Avatar
I like your idea with Sneak Attack, I think that would be the approach I'd use, cards like Quicksilver Amulet and Winding Canyons so you can flash your stuff into play, then you can get best value. Cards like Gratuitous Violence and Vicious Shadows could be good vinishers, same as Insurrection. Don't forget about gems like Desolation Giant as well. GL
They're subpar because they're not only narrow in JUST dealing with the "theft cards" (whereas sac outlets and bounce stuff can be universally useful in many situations), but also I don't think they're even good at dealing with most steal spells (with exception of maybe Insurrection) because... I used to play Zedruu and grixis Threaten/Theft decks all the time and 99% of the time your opponent will have sac outlets themselves after then gain control of it. Casting something like Brand they'll just City of Shadows exile it or some shenanigans like that.
Personally I think cards like: Erratic Portal, Crystal Shard, Goblin Bombardment, Evolutionary Leap, Greater Good, Viscera Seer, Claws of Gix and stuff like that are more universally better to protect your board.
I'll refer to original question...
So RIGHT OFF THE BAT, I have to seriously question cards like:
...and etc, the list goes on, those are just the ones I caught first glance. Most of these cards are only truly strong if built around either a tribal or dedicated deck-- for example you're not gonna' just throw Goblin Matrons or Cataclysm in your 3 color or 5 color mostly "good stuff" decks that don't run the tribal or don't build around some Land Recursion theme, same goes for Laboratory Maniac too, these are cards that are powerful but require a dedicated theme or combo to maximize. Same goes for Scarecrone, amazing card in an artifact utilizing deck like Sydri, Galvanic Genius or Sharuum but you wouldn't just throw it in some GRW creature deck that only runs Duplicant/Solemn, it's too narrow.
To juxtapose against these, since I mentioned Goblin Matron-- Imerial Recruiter on the other had definitely belongs, because not only is its tutor ability powerful and works as a great sac outlet to skullclamp and enchantments and such, but its universally good. For example if you had a 3-color deck with red and had this creature you'd be almost hardpressed to not run it, it'd be a very very rare occurrence you wouldn't be able to tutor for clones, duplicants, Oracle of Muldaya, Kiki, or a million other ways it'd be useful-- Matron on the other hand ONLY gets goblins and clones, this is powerful but only in regard to dedicated tribal. Another comparison, Azami vs Mulldrifer--> I can toss Mulldrifter in just about any deck, even 4-5 colored decks and its just good, you couldn't say the same for Azami regardless how OP she is as a commander.
Again, I just have to question how some of these cards slid by this list. Dark Ritual is another that has no place, someone probably pointing out its utility in some Zur combo deck, this is a horrible card in most decks splashing black, I'd say it's close to the last card I'd ever want to draw in majority of decks with black.
-----------------------
I think one of the things holding this Thread are these sorta "dedicated" OP cards that are only OP in specific decks, and the OVEREMPHASIS of card advantage and powerful sweeps clogging up the list. We need more Massacre Worm & Avenger of Zendikar and just good powerful cards on the list, and less Ancient Craving and Dark Confidant crap cards that are justified in "Well it's the BEST card advantage card in Mono Black so we CANT take it off the list, sorry". While I'll agree utility is important, and cards like Trinket Mage, Weathered Wayfarer, and Baleful Strix are almost too good to not include we gotta' make exceptions sometimes or pose limitations so the list isn't saturated with too much utility-- it'd almost be a good idea to separate the list from Support vs Power House cards, so I don't have to dictate on making a cut whether an Imperial Recruiter is more powerful than an Infernal Titan, or an Oracle of Muldaya is more powerful of a card than an Avenger of Zendikar. This is another problem that I found in making a top 50 list like this.
Cheers,
JARY
That's awesome, I think you and I are definitely on the same page here. So I had an Ertai, the Corrupted UBW Deck back in the day, which used a few "interesting" combos and game enders to seal the game, so I feel like I could be some help.
Here's some ideas:
(1) Lich + Reverse the Sands
If you can get Urborg/Coffers, just drop Lich and 0 yourself and go for the YOLO Hail Mary play lol (if it works you'll get a MEGALUL, if Reverse the Sands gets countered, it'll be a hilariously epic fail but that's what this game is all about).
(2) Diabloic Intent + Academy Rector --> Omniscience + Rune-scarred Demon --> Cavern Harpy (draw your whole deck, play lich so you don't die, etc. Time Walk/Archaeomancer there's a million ways to win)
(3) Kaervek's Spite + Academy Rector --> Barren Glory
Another way to cheese your way to victory, just cast with Rector out at end of someone's turn... win, ez game. And I know it's generally taboo to have any Unglued or whatever... but this is the only time it's 100% acceptable to have The Cheese Stands Alone instead of Barren Glory, in fact you're a better person if you do!
I dig the donate route... Although I don't like the Illusion's of Grandeur. I'd also support cards like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and Death Pits of Wrath/Pestilence. Also Darien, King of Kjeldor with Lich would be hilarious, not that it would be OP but something like that with No Mercy/Lich is hilarious
1) Board Lockdown
This is where I inherently disagree with a lot of the "pain" strategies here. When I think about "In what situation would I actually be able to cast this mid-late game and not have it instantly destroyed?", AND "In what situation would players ACTUALLY commit late game to abusing her ability on a player?"-- an easy answer: When it's their only real choice. If you tap out your mana, drop a Contamination followed by Xancha on opponent for example, and it sticks.. your opponents might have zero plays for several turn-- not to mention, drop this on the player that's winning at 24 life with a lockdown board and watch as your 1-2 other players calculate how much mana to draw him out and kill him. So that's the political side, but without a Lock piece players might use her ability maybe once... but they really have no incentive to go full retard unless there's literally no other options IMO.
2) Infinite Combo -- AKA "you lose now!"
I know, I know... I usually hate this kinda infinite "you lose/I win" combo crap, but it's a little bit too tempting especially in a game where it's your only out. It's way too easy here, especially when your own Commander provides the Win Cond (don't even have to search for it), I'd throw this in to cheese the last player, and... screw it, I'd honestly just throw in Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience while I'm at it since they're pretty good on their own and its just one extra way to cheese someone out in a pinch (And lets be honest, is there anything more hilarious than crushing someone's dreams when they've got a board filled flooded with huge pumped up elf/zombies/etc and they're gonna win the game next turn?), the answer is no
I feel this would be effective because the way to beat control like that is to just play faster than them and pressure them with a ton of removal, like every card you play should be quick and generate fast CA or should etb and pressure them. Even playing a tutor or Recruiter to get a Viashino Heretic shutting down his artfacts can lock ppl out all game... sometimes ppl try to think big bombs in order to counter a strategy but sometimes its little utility creatures that can shut ppl out of games, for example I think I've probably won more games off Gravepact or Goblin Bombardment than almost any other huge bomb cards.