i went 3-1 yesterday at fnm event. played with elves, bant spirits, humans and lost to tron. just make a mistake that cozt me the game. kept a traverse on top hoping to deliruim after grim flayer attacks next turn and stone rain him,instead of having deliruim now. calculated it afterthought, it would be a faster clock.
but the deck is awesome, it feels you have game with any deck.
That's the main thing I like about the deck, it feels you don't have to fear any matchup (sure, UW control and some big mana decks are tough, but its still quite winnable)
I think 20 lands is pretty good for the deck, it's what I used to play, but I feel the same as FlyingDelver; Im not comfortable cutting anything.
Plus, i've been getting very good results with the deck as it is and it feels even better with the latest changes. You also have the option of going up to 20 post sb (granted, bojuka might be a bad land in that respect)
I can see dropping a push for a land though, I just don't want to weaken the deck any further against aggro and push is our best removal in that sense, is push really the best card to cut?
I'll test and see, all the latest changes Brightmist suggested were pretty good imo so he may be correct here.
But Im having too much of a good time with 2 swamps to go back to the old ways I think.
Ill just have to live dangerously, either with 1 marsh or 0 plains, if it wasn't for blood moon I would for sure cut the plains, but it might be best to keep it in.
I can see cutting Scooze, it just doesn't do much. Thrun/Rhino split is reasonable. Rhino does kill faster through TKS/Thragtusk or Wurmcoil tokens tho.
I'm not keeping in CB or Souls, those are two cards I honestly don't want to see against Tron.
LtLH I'm kinda on the fence about. It's narrow card but we have no other way of rebuying threats we need from graveyard since we don't have access to Kolaghan's Command. Like rebuying a rec. sage for an o-stone or a Teeg is reasonable. Silver bullets sometimes get milled over to graveyard with Grisly Salvage too and not being able to traverse for them when necessary is pretty annoying so LtLH kinda gives you an out for that.
This seems about right, Im not sure on the Thrun/Rhino thing myself, so let me know how it goes (also, if you have 3 pushes instead of 2 just leave the brutality in)
If anyone cares do test the deck without plains let me know. Have 1 blooming marsh and 2 swamp as of now, could replace a plains with +1 blooming marsh.
Sure, killing them fast is our ideal plan, but often you have to grind through a Karn or O-stone in order to win (not to mention post sb Tusks etc).
Thrun is definately not a very good card here, but we have to work with what we have. I find him to be better than some other cards, and I would lean towards a 1/1 Rhino/Thrun split than a 2 Rhino if that's the case. It's debatable though, the 3 damage might be more relevant, and its a fringe advantage in any case, but I prefer having Thrun in rather than out.
Same reasoning goes for the other cards I mentioned, they are not good anti tron cards, but they might be better than some alternatives (souls may seem pretty bad for example, but its the only card apart from Thrun that can single handedly pressure through a Karn).
I mostly second what Brightmist said, but I also add Thrun post sb and I also keep LtLH.
Thrun is pretty good at evading Karn, and it also regenerates which is great against Oblivion Stone. You can take 1 rhino out if you need the slot.
Liliana the last hope is pretty situational, but it is better than other cards since you can -2 to get a fulminator back and that can be game winning, that's her main role.
You can leave collective brutality and/or 1-2 souls post sb depending on your configuration, they're not good but have some limited use (brutality can take tutors and All is dust for example).
Take scavenging ooze out, he's just a 2/2 here.
Maybe Golgari charm regeneration deserves a spot post sb? We do have some pretty bad cards for this matchup so you probably could fit it in.
Congrats for the results man! Really impress by the list. Any words on Fulminator Mage? Why only 2 of them? Wouldn't the Tron matchup feel a little bit better with the third one?
Oh and by the way, thanks for sharing the 15th card of your sideboard!
Ty Sensei.
3rd fulminator would be nice, I just cannot find a slot for it (also doesn't feel that necessary). Tron is not a good matchup, but it's not that bad either if you know it well enough. Grim flayer and Goyf aren't slow clocks, discards and Gaddock Teeg can punish them, and as Brightmist said, you can tutor for Ghost Quarter with traverse, thats a pretty common play since it can be done on turn 3. Beat 2 Trons at the GP (atually the same guy twice, met him in round 2 and in the semifinals, he was a good player).
I think the manabase is indeed a bit risky at 19 lands with GQ and plains (plains is really awful in the deck, is it worth cutting it even with blood moon out? You mostly want to destroy the blood moon anyway, but still, seems foolish not to have access to a plains when you have traverse).
Used to play 20 lands, but I keep the bojuka on the sb to go up if needed. Also, guess I'm not that shy about using traverse to fetch for a land if needed. Ghost Quarter should definately be maindeck in my opinion.
I don't like cutting the push for a land, but maybe it's fine? Let me know further on.
Played a fair bit today. Golgari Charm now firmly in my 75, it solves a lot of the deck's needs (removed a damnation).
4th souls not really necessary, had thought about using Doran, the siege tower in that spot to have a nice threat that doesn't require the grave, but Anafenza prolly better since it hates on some archetypes and cards?
Also removed a blooming marsh for one more swamp
Manglehorn over kataki? Maybe, but kataki is still brutal against affinity, and probably a lot better against KCI too. Ill stick to kataki for now
Also, feel like 1 nihil spellbomb is really necessary, not using kambal on my list, feel like Eidolon is enough.
I think you are right about Golgari Charm, it really does a lot of things the deck wants, it should probably be on the 75. Cutting a damnation? Maybe you are right, but Im fond of the second one to be honest. Its main goal is just to make sure you actually draw one, its the card you want the most in many matchups.
To be honest I dont think I would have made it to the top 8 without the second copy, considering drawing one was fundamental to 2 games throughout the tournament, but you might be correct here
Also, I do bring (at least) 1 surgical in against UW control, If you can remove some of their threats/outs your gaddock and thrun can be a lot more efficient.
"the matchups you faced weren't very easy by the looks of it, but u manage to make a good finish. I know you already told me this but what changes would you make on your deck right now.
and how important path to exile on the deck? is the extra determinal to our game plan? is exile effect important?"
Yep, some pretty rough matchups actually, but managed to pull it trough. Mostly I like the deck as it is, I just wanted a slot for one more basic, and maybe swap the pulse with a lingering souls since pulse goes in pretty much 100% of the games. But I like it as it is.
Path is very important, its just so good, its there to remove the most troublesome creatures against your deck, the land doesn't matter in the mid-late game. I used to run 3, but cut 1 for a brutality, 3 is too much is think
The Mardu matchup is good because of trample. You have 6 big tramplers, and their removal isen't the best against them. Shouldn't be hard to find 2-3 tramplers with traverse etc, and its hard to lose from there. You can get overrun by flying tokens or screwed by blood moon, but it was one of my most favorable matchups during testing.
Hollow one is probably the easiest of all matchups. Burning inquiry actually favors you a lot of times. Once you get a 4/5 or 5/6 goyf on the battlefield (which shouldn't be hard) you get to block the most important threats. Rhino also very good here.
Just play the control game on this one. Kill those flameblade adepts (they can get out of control very quickly) and put a blocker to control the game. Post sb bring in bojuka bog (go to 20 lands), spellbomb, 1-2 surgical, 2 damnation, reclamation sage and a maelstrom pulse. Play the control game. Leyline of the Void is their best tool against you (and really the best card against this deck), it really hurts but you can still win (goyfs, rhinos, rec sage, pulse etc).
Humans is similar to hollow one, you have plenty of removal and 2 damnations post sb. Mostly I lost to a combination of freebooters and sin collectors taking my spot removal/damnations. Good MU in any case
Control is slightly unfavored. UW depends mostly on Liliana, otherwise it will be tough. It's hard to set delirium against them since you have few targets for your instants, and your creatures get exiled. Liliana does a LOT of work though, so it's your main card in this matchup. Gaddock teeg is amazing post sb.
Jeskai is less dependent on Lilianas, your threats can evade most of their removal, its still a tough grindy game, but you can come out favored (I beat 2 Jeskais on the GP pretty convincingly, but they weren't great players)
In any case, one of the things I like about this archetype is that every match is winnable, even if unfavorable
MU's during GP were: 2 Eldra Tron, 2 G Tron, 3 scapeshift, 2 jeskai, 2 hollow one, 2 humans, 1 As foretold/living end, 1 Jund, 1 affinity, 2 pyromancer
Hello everyone, Im the one who made it to the finals on GP Sao Paulo.
Guitar90x contacted me, 15th card is indeed nihil spellbomb.
I quite like the deck as it is, unfortunately lost in the finals to Mardu which is a good matchup. I figured one of the few ways Mardu can beat me is through a blood moon and was maybe overly careful of it? Good game nonetheless.
Feel free to ask me any question and good luck everyone with this archetype, I think its really solid right now as it has very good hollow one, mardu, humans and affinity matchups. Grave hate does hurt, but the deck has many ways around it.
Also true, no easy win, you have to work for it everytime
That's the main thing I like about the deck, it feels you don't have to fear any matchup (sure, UW control and some big mana decks are tough, but its still quite winnable)
For me the cut is either push, brutality, or anafenza. But then again, im fine with 19 lands as long as 2 swamps are there.
Plus, i've been getting very good results with the deck as it is and it feels even better with the latest changes. You also have the option of going up to 20 post sb (granted, bojuka might be a bad land in that respect)
I can see dropping a push for a land though, I just don't want to weaken the deck any further against aggro and push is our best removal in that sense, is push really the best card to cut?
I'll test and see, all the latest changes Brightmist suggested were pretty good imo so he may be correct here.
But Im having too much of a good time with 2 swamps to go back to the old ways I think.
Ill just have to live dangerously, either with 1 marsh or 0 plains, if it wasn't for blood moon I would for sure cut the plains, but it might be best to keep it in.
This seems about right, Im not sure on the Thrun/Rhino thing myself, so let me know how it goes (also, if you have 3 pushes instead of 2 just leave the brutality in)
If anyone cares do test the deck without plains let me know. Have 1 blooming marsh and 2 swamp as of now, could replace a plains with +1 blooming marsh.
Feeling pretty good about the deck right now.
Thrun is definately not a very good card here, but we have to work with what we have. I find him to be better than some other cards, and I would lean towards a 1/1 Rhino/Thrun split than a 2 Rhino if that's the case. It's debatable though, the 3 damage might be more relevant, and its a fringe advantage in any case, but I prefer having Thrun in rather than out.
Same reasoning goes for the other cards I mentioned, they are not good anti tron cards, but they might be better than some alternatives (souls may seem pretty bad for example, but its the only card apart from Thrun that can single handedly pressure through a Karn).
Thrun is pretty good at evading Karn, and it also regenerates which is great against Oblivion Stone. You can take 1 rhino out if you need the slot.
Liliana the last hope is pretty situational, but it is better than other cards since you can -2 to get a fulminator back and that can be game winning, that's her main role.
You can leave collective brutality and/or 1-2 souls post sb depending on your configuration, they're not good but have some limited use (brutality can take tutors and All is dust for example).
Take scavenging ooze out, he's just a 2/2 here.
Maybe Golgari charm regeneration deserves a spot post sb? We do have some pretty bad cards for this matchup so you probably could fit it in.
Ty Sensei.
3rd fulminator would be nice, I just cannot find a slot for it (also doesn't feel that necessary). Tron is not a good matchup, but it's not that bad either if you know it well enough. Grim flayer and Goyf aren't slow clocks, discards and Gaddock Teeg can punish them, and as Brightmist said, you can tutor for Ghost Quarter with traverse, thats a pretty common play since it can be done on turn 3. Beat 2 Trons at the GP (atually the same guy twice, met him in round 2 and in the semifinals, he was a good player).
I think the manabase is indeed a bit risky at 19 lands with GQ and plains (plains is really awful in the deck, is it worth cutting it even with blood moon out? You mostly want to destroy the blood moon anyway, but still, seems foolish not to have access to a plains when you have traverse).
Used to play 20 lands, but I keep the bojuka on the sb to go up if needed. Also, guess I'm not that shy about using traverse to fetch for a land if needed. Ghost Quarter should definately be maindeck in my opinion.
I don't like cutting the push for a land, but maybe it's fine? Let me know further on.
4th souls not really necessary, had thought about using Doran, the siege tower in that spot to have a nice threat that doesn't require the grave, but Anafenza prolly better since it hates on some archetypes and cards?
Also removed a blooming marsh for one more swamp
Manglehorn over kataki? Maybe, but kataki is still brutal against affinity, and probably a lot better against KCI too. Ill stick to kataki for now
Also, feel like 1 nihil spellbomb is really necessary, not using kambal on my list, feel like Eidolon is enough.
Cheers
To be honest I dont think I would have made it to the top 8 without the second copy, considering drawing one was fundamental to 2 games throughout the tournament, but you might be correct here
Also, I do bring (at least) 1 surgical in against UW control, If you can remove some of their threats/outs your gaddock and thrun can be a lot more efficient.
"the matchups you faced weren't very easy by the looks of it, but u manage to make a good finish. I know you already told me this but what changes would you make on your deck right now.
and how important path to exile on the deck? is the extra determinal to our game plan? is exile effect important?"
Yep, some pretty rough matchups actually, but managed to pull it trough. Mostly I like the deck as it is, I just wanted a slot for one more basic, and maybe swap the pulse with a lingering souls since pulse goes in pretty much 100% of the games. But I like it as it is.
Path is very important, its just so good, its there to remove the most troublesome creatures against your deck, the land doesn't matter in the mid-late game. I used to run 3, but cut 1 for a brutality, 3 is too much is think
Hollow one is probably the easiest of all matchups. Burning inquiry actually favors you a lot of times. Once you get a 4/5 or 5/6 goyf on the battlefield (which shouldn't be hard) you get to block the most important threats. Rhino also very good here.
Just play the control game on this one. Kill those flameblade adepts (they can get out of control very quickly) and put a blocker to control the game. Post sb bring in bojuka bog (go to 20 lands), spellbomb, 1-2 surgical, 2 damnation, reclamation sage and a maelstrom pulse. Play the control game. Leyline of the Void is their best tool against you (and really the best card against this deck), it really hurts but you can still win (goyfs, rhinos, rec sage, pulse etc).
Humans is similar to hollow one, you have plenty of removal and 2 damnations post sb. Mostly I lost to a combination of freebooters and sin collectors taking my spot removal/damnations. Good MU in any case
Control is slightly unfavored. UW depends mostly on Liliana, otherwise it will be tough. It's hard to set delirium against them since you have few targets for your instants, and your creatures get exiled. Liliana does a LOT of work though, so it's your main card in this matchup. Gaddock teeg is amazing post sb.
Jeskai is less dependent on Lilianas, your threats can evade most of their removal, its still a tough grindy game, but you can come out favored (I beat 2 Jeskais on the GP pretty convincingly, but they weren't great players)
In any case, one of the things I like about this archetype is that every match is winnable, even if unfavorable
MU's during GP were: 2 Eldra Tron, 2 G Tron, 3 scapeshift, 2 jeskai, 2 hollow one, 2 humans, 1 As foretold/living end, 1 Jund, 1 affinity, 2 pyromancer
Guitar90x contacted me, 15th card is indeed nihil spellbomb.
I quite like the deck as it is, unfortunately lost in the finals to Mardu which is a good matchup. I figured one of the few ways Mardu can beat me is through a blood moon and was maybe overly careful of it? Good game nonetheless.
Feel free to ask me any question and good luck everyone with this archetype, I think its really solid right now as it has very good hollow one, mardu, humans and affinity matchups. Grave hate does hurt, but the deck has many ways around it.
Cheers