@killer_eye Hi, I know you posted that ages ago, but I'll reply anyway. They look like some great upgrades.
A couple of other suggestions:
1. I'd recommend vicera seer as a sac outlet, probably over bloodthrone vampire. Having another one mana sac outlet that provides a lot of value over the game is pretty good. It also doesn't get blown out by a well timed removal or bounce spell blown out, or have a lot of it's value removed if your opponent has chump blockers.
2. Card draw spells like winding way and scarscale ritual are probably what you want to cut for priest of forgotten gods. It also provides card advantage and is probably just better and more synergistic.
3. If you're in B/G aristocrats have a look at the combo of Geralfs messenger, Yawgmoth, thran physician, and other undying creatures (like young wolf, and butcher ghoul which you already have). I won't explain here as it would take up like half the page, but those cards have some great synergy with the deck as a whole and offer some game winning combo options. I'd highly recommend this article if you're interested. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-yawgmoth-hapatra-combo-modern-magic-online&ved=2ahUKEwjJ_Oq48dTlAhVRb30KHUF_DOcQFjAFegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw39luRZX57rtLORKjIh96Ek
It is a bit more focused on the combo, and less on the grindy aristocrats train, but I think it'd be worth a look, at least.
4. You probably want some more Blood artist effects in the deck. I'd recommend the full eight (4 blood artist, 4 Zulaport cutthroat), as the deck can really kill out of nowhere once you have 2+ on the board.
5. Some sort of disruption against fast combo and would be ideal as it definitely looks like a slower, grindier type of deck. You could easily cut a bit of your removal for some hand disruption. In modern, you need to be either fast, or disruptive. This deck probably wants to be a little disruptive, very grindy and synergistic, and (if you put the Yawgmoth + undying combo in) a little bit combo ish.
That's all I can think of right now, hope it helps!
Hey guys, I've been thinking about picking up Eldrazi and Taxes for a while, mostly because I already own all the expensive lands, and also it just seems fun =P
So my only question is, how vital is aether vial for the deck to work? I know it's basically the best turn one play, and it's super powerful letting you dump your hand, and play stuff at instant speed, but it's also pretty expensive, and I don't want to spend that much money at this point.
I know it'd be a trash alternative, but would Thraben inspector be a useable replacement?
I can already guess at what you'll say, but I thought I may as well ask
Thanks
Yeah, I mean, it seems okay. But if we want a big undercosted threat Torgaar, Famine Incarcerate just seems better (in aristocrats, at least).
The other thing is that we're not really a deck that particularly wants/needs big creatures like that.
I could be wrong, and it'd totally be worth testing, but in the end I don't think it'd fit super well.
Hey EternalRock, I reckon that straight B/W aristocrats is a totally viable option. If you want an idea of a decklist you could have a look at Danny's list on the previous page. If you wanted to go more all in on the Rally/Return combo you could take out the Tidehollow Scullers for Rally the Ancestors or something like that. That's not to say that green doesn't have some great options, because the cards that you talked about are super strong, but I personally think that B/W has enough cards for it to work just as well, if not better thanks to a smoother mana base. I know that's not very in-depth, so if you have any questions please ask them! Not that I'll necessarily have an answer, but I'll do my best
Ha, that's cool. using Memnite + Ornithopter with Cabal Therapist could be fun, and acting like a mini ritual with Return is a nice synergy.
And hmm, that's a good question. I feel like Giver of Runes slots better into slower decks that have threats/disruption to protect (eldrazi and taxes, being a good example). But it could totally still work in Aristocrats. Taking a kill spell for Tidehollow Sculler, Priest of Forgotten Gods, or a big Carrion Feeder would be pretty great. It's also, as you said, good against aggro decks where we need to be blocking since it can save a blocker.
The only problem is that playing Giver of Runes could dilute the deck too much since it doesn't actually have any synergy with the deck as whole. It's not a sac outlet, and it's not really fodder either. It's a slower support piece, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but maybe something like Doomed
Traveler/Hunted Witness would just be better? Honestly, I'm not sure. It would also depend on the type of build. If you were more all in on the combo it would be worse, whereas if you were going with a slower more resilient build it would probably be better there.
All in all it could be great, and is totally worth testing, but it might just be worse than other options at the same mana cost.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that one since it was first spoiled... I think that it has the potential to be super powerful, but in the end is just a bit too slow. Even in the best case scenario, you play Cabal Therapist turn one, turn two you can't sac anything since you can only use it's ability at the beginning of your first main phase and at that point you haven't had a chance to play any creatures. When you do play your second creature it's too late. So it's only on your third turn that you get to look at their hand, and even then it's unlikely that you actually guess correctly. Obviously it's great after that since you can strip their hand away, but in modern playing a card that doesn't guarantee interaction until turn four (and that's assuming you play it turn one AND they don't kill it) isn't fast enough. It's also a really bad topdeck later in the game.
I guess it could be a sideboard card against decks like control or grindy midrange because if they can't kill it then it's amazing, but other than that I don't think it's good enough.
Obviously I could be totally wrong, but that's what my overall thoughts on it are. I really hope that I am wrong though, I'd love for it to be good, unlikely as that is =P
1. With Yawgmoth I totally agree. Insane against creature decks (especially humans, funnily enough) but even against others he's pretty good. Maybe a sideboard card?
2. Vesperlark seems okay, being able to get back basically anything from the graveyard for 2 mana is pretty good. The only thing is that it's not a great 2 drop unless you played stitchers supplier on turn one. I like how if you evoke it it will trigger blood artist though =P
And obviously the flexibility of also being an expensive 2/1 flyer with a good death trigger is great as well. All in all I think it probably doesn't work so well in the Rally/Return builds since they're more about returning EVERYTHING with one big spell (and it itself is 3 Mana), but I guess if there's more of a grindy value build it could
definitely be great there.
3. Unearth, basically the same as Vesperlark except that it's cheaper and flexible in a different way. Again, you could probably build more of a value build that plays some good 3 drops to make the most of Unearth being able to return them (maybe even Vesperlark).
4. Carrion feeder seems really great. I think that yeah, the only card that contests it here is Cartel Aristocrat, and they both fill the same role in quite different ways. Cartel's advantage is that it's a very hard to kill sac outlet that (while not really being a huge threat) can also get in those last few points of damage through blockers. It's also a spectacular blocker against creature decks.
Carrion feeder, on the other hand, is cheaper, and it turns into a legitimate threat fairly quickly. It is however far more vulnerable, and the deck can find it hard to function without a sac outlet. It also sucks at blocking
All in all, I think I do agree that Carrion feeder is the better of the two, because if they don't have an answer it'll probably just take over the game, and the matchups where you want blockers are ones you're probably favoured in anyway.
Anyway, I'm pretty excited to do some testing with the new cards, especially if the format slows down a bit thanks to some of the other cards in Modern Horizons.
Oof, that was a really long post. Sorry I didn't even realise
Any cards that you're thinking of specifically @kpal?
Also, has anyone tried Arguels Blood Fast as card advantage vs control, and maybe some help stabilising vs aggro? Obviously you'd need enough creatures to sac if you were to use the flip side, but it could be alright.
Maybe it could be good over Path To Exile in the main as it can kill big creatures? Way more conditional, obviously, but its synergy with the rest of the deck could make it better. Path has always kinda felt like a necessary evil =P
She seems okay, but at the same time, you've got Blood Artist and Cutthroat at two mana. Pumping the team, and being able to ping planeswalkers + creatures is pretty good, so in the Mardu build she could find a home.
However... It's non token creatures, so that's a massive downside. As well as that, being at three mana means that she can't be brought back with Return, and to bring her back with Rally costs five... She also dies pretty easily, and that's not ideal when you've just spent three mana on her. All in all, I'd say no, mostly because she doesn't trigger with tokens. That said, she is pretty powerful, and could totally be worth testing in mardu aristocrats!
That makes a lot of sense. I've gone down a swamp for a fourth plains, and at some point, I intend to go down a plains, and another Swamp, for two Godless Shrine.
As for the amount of removal I'm running, I went down to one Blessed Alliance for a Gideon AoZ.
Thanks for all the replies everyone, I really appreciate it =)
I guess a will put in a Gideon, for all the reasons you listed above.
Tarotplz, fair enough. I'll try out Spectral Procession over Start//Finish. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense.
As for the three Swamps, I know it is a lot, but since I don't have all the fetches, I thought that running slightly more would be better because of Blood Mood and Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin. I did intend to replace a couple of Swamps with Godless Shrine eventually, but don't really want to buy them straight away.
I do see what you mean about Spectral Procession being better than Start//Finish in an aggro build, but I slightly prefer Start//Finish due to it's easy mana requirements + it's flexibility as a removal spell if you need one. I do see how three flyers for three mana is really good though. Just my personal preference.
I'm still doing some testing on the amount of Shambling Vents that I play, but I think that I'll probably end up agreeing with you and go down one.
I love the idea of adding Gideon, Ally of Zendikar! I've been trying to find room for him for a while, and, since you recommend that I should run less removal, I think I'll try him instead if Blessed Alliance. One question on this topic: let's say I had Collective Brutality instead of Blessed Alliance. (the only reason I don't is because Collective Brutality is really expensive ) anyway, if that was the case, would you say that Gideon would be better than Collective Brutality? I hope that kind of made sense
I've been following this thread for a little while now, and have put together this list. I thought I'd post it here before I buy it to see if anyone had any feedback/criticism/improvements. Just want to add that you've got a great thread going here!
Here's my decklist. Idk how to do it properly, but oh well (sorry if that's an inconvenience for anyone)
PLANESWALKER (3)
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
INSTANT (17)
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Start//Finish
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shambling Vent
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Shefet Dunes
1 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
3 Swamp
SIDEBOARD
2 Damping Sphere
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Auriok Champion
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Fragmentize
2 Day of Judgment
3 Duress
2 Stony Silence
As you can probably tell, it's more of an aggro build (only because Bitterbloosom is super expensive lol) with Raise the Alarm, three Legions Landing, etc
A couple of notes on card choices:
Blessed Alliance - At some point I plan to replace this with Collective Brutality, but since that's pretty expensive I think Blessed Alliance is the next best thing.
4 IoK 2 Thoughtseize - Ideally this would be a 3/3 split, but Thoughtseize is expensive, and I already own four IoK, so for the moment I'm going with a 4/2 split
Manabase - As you can see, I've got a fairly budget manabase. I'm trying to keep this as cheap as I realistically can. (In case you were wondering, the only reason I have the Marsh Flats is because it was a gift from a friend)
Shambling Vent - I know a lot of you only run two or three, but I find that its strength in the mid/late game makes of for its occasional clunkiness early game. Having said that I have been considering going down one for another Shefet Dunes.
That's all, so please give me any feedback, suggestions, and especially criticisms that you can think of!
A couple of other suggestions:
1. I'd recommend vicera seer as a sac outlet, probably over bloodthrone vampire. Having another one mana sac outlet that provides a lot of value over the game is pretty good. It also doesn't get blown out by a well timed removal or bounce spell blown out, or have a lot of it's value removed if your opponent has chump blockers.
2. Card draw spells like winding way and scarscale ritual are probably what you want to cut for priest of forgotten gods. It also provides card advantage and is probably just better and more synergistic.
3. If you're in B/G aristocrats have a look at the combo of Geralfs messenger, Yawgmoth, thran physician, and other undying creatures (like young wolf, and butcher ghoul which you already have). I won't explain here as it would take up like half the page, but those cards have some great synergy with the deck as a whole and offer some game winning combo options. I'd highly recommend this article if you're interested. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/much-abrew-yawgmoth-hapatra-combo-modern-magic-online&ved=2ahUKEwjJ_Oq48dTlAhVRb30KHUF_DOcQFjAFegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw39luRZX57rtLORKjIh96Ek
It is a bit more focused on the combo, and less on the grindy aristocrats train, but I think it'd be worth a look, at least.
4. You probably want some more Blood artist effects in the deck. I'd recommend the full eight (4 blood artist, 4 Zulaport cutthroat), as the deck can really kill out of nowhere once you have 2+ on the board.
5. Some sort of disruption against fast combo and would be ideal as it definitely looks like a slower, grindier type of deck. You could easily cut a bit of your removal for some hand disruption. In modern, you need to be either fast, or disruptive. This deck probably wants to be a little disruptive, very grindy and synergistic, and (if you put the Yawgmoth + undying combo in) a little bit combo ish.
That's all I can think of right now, hope it helps!
Thanks a bunch!
So my only question is, how vital is aether vial for the deck to work? I know it's basically the best turn one play, and it's super powerful letting you dump your hand, and play stuff at instant speed, but it's also pretty expensive, and I don't want to spend that much money at this point.
I know it'd be a trash alternative, but would Thraben inspector be a useable replacement?
I can already guess at what you'll say, but I thought I may as well ask
Thanks
The other thing is that we're not really a deck that particularly wants/needs big creatures like that.
I could be wrong, and it'd totally be worth testing, but in the end I don't think it'd fit super well.
And hmm, that's a good question. I feel like Giver of Runes slots better into slower decks that have threats/disruption to protect (eldrazi and taxes, being a good example). But it could totally still work in Aristocrats. Taking a kill spell for Tidehollow Sculler, Priest of Forgotten Gods, or a big Carrion Feeder would be pretty great. It's also, as you said, good against aggro decks where we need to be blocking since it can save a blocker.
The only problem is that playing Giver of Runes could dilute the deck too much since it doesn't actually have any synergy with the deck as whole. It's not a sac outlet, and it's not really fodder either. It's a slower support piece, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but maybe something like Doomed
Traveler/Hunted Witness would just be better? Honestly, I'm not sure. It would also depend on the type of build. If you were more all in on the combo it would be worse, whereas if you were going with a slower more resilient build it would probably be better there.
All in all it could be great, and is totally worth testing, but it might just be worse than other options at the same mana cost.
I guess it could be a sideboard card against decks like control or grindy midrange because if they can't kill it then it's amazing, but other than that I don't think it's good enough.
Obviously I could be totally wrong, but that's what my overall thoughts on it are. I really hope that I am wrong though, I'd love for it to be good, unlikely as that is =P
1. With Yawgmoth I totally agree. Insane against creature decks (especially humans, funnily enough) but even against others he's pretty good. Maybe a sideboard card?
2. Vesperlark seems okay, being able to get back basically anything from the graveyard for 2 mana is pretty good. The only thing is that it's not a great 2 drop unless you played stitchers supplier on turn one. I like how if you evoke it it will trigger blood artist though =P
And obviously the flexibility of also being an expensive 2/1 flyer with a good death trigger is great as well. All in all I think it probably doesn't work so well in the Rally/Return builds since they're more about returning EVERYTHING with one big spell (and it itself is 3 Mana), but I guess if there's more of a grindy value build it could
definitely be great there.
3. Unearth, basically the same as Vesperlark except that it's cheaper and flexible in a different way. Again, you could probably build more of a value build that plays some good 3 drops to make the most of Unearth being able to return them (maybe even Vesperlark).
4. Carrion feeder seems really great. I think that yeah, the only card that contests it here is Cartel Aristocrat, and they both fill the same role in quite different ways. Cartel's advantage is that it's a very hard to kill sac outlet that (while not really being a huge threat) can also get in those last few points of damage through blockers. It's also a spectacular blocker against creature decks.
Carrion feeder, on the other hand, is cheaper, and it turns into a legitimate threat fairly quickly. It is however far more vulnerable, and the deck can find it hard to function without a sac outlet. It also sucks at blocking
All in all, I think I do agree that Carrion feeder is the better of the two, because if they don't have an answer it'll probably just take over the game, and the matchups where you want blockers are ones you're probably favoured in anyway.
Anyway, I'm pretty excited to do some testing with the new cards, especially if the format slows down a bit thanks to some of the other cards in Modern Horizons.
Oof, that was a really long post. Sorry
Also, has anyone tried Arguels Blood Fast as card advantage vs control, and maybe some help stabilising vs aggro? Obviously you'd need enough creatures to sac if you were to use the flip side, but it could be alright.
(Idk how to do the proper click on name thing, so here's the link XD) https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ravnica-allegiance/35924-priest-of-forgotten-gods
Maybe it could be good over Path To Exile in the main as it can kill big creatures? Way more conditional, obviously, but its synergy with the rest of the deck could make it better. Path has always kinda felt like a necessary evil =P
However... It's non token creatures, so that's a massive downside. As well as that, being at three mana means that she can't be brought back with Return, and to bring her back with Rally costs five... She also dies pretty easily, and that's not ideal when you've just spent three mana on her. All in all, I'd say no, mostly because she doesn't trigger with tokens. That said, she is pretty powerful, and could totally be worth testing in mardu aristocrats!
As for the amount of removal I'm running, I went down to one Blessed Alliance for a Gideon AoZ.
I guess a will put in a Gideon, for all the reasons you listed above.
Tarotplz, fair enough. I'll try out Spectral Procession over Start//Finish. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense.
As for the three Swamps, I know it is a lot, but since I don't have all the fetches, I thought that running slightly more would be better because of Blood Mood and Ghost Quarter/Field of Ruin. I did intend to replace a couple of Swamps with Godless Shrine eventually, but don't really want to buy them straight away.
I do see what you mean about Spectral Procession being better than Start//Finish in an aggro build, but I slightly prefer Start//Finish due to it's easy mana requirements + it's flexibility as a removal spell if you need one. I do see how three flyers for three mana is really good though. Just my personal preference.
I'm still doing some testing on the amount of Shambling Vents that I play, but I think that I'll probably end up agreeing with you and go down one.
I love the idea of adding Gideon, Ally of Zendikar! I've been trying to find room for him for a while, and, since you recommend that I should run less removal, I think I'll try him instead if Blessed Alliance. One question on this topic: let's say I had Collective Brutality instead of Blessed Alliance. (the only reason I don't is because Collective Brutality is really expensive
I've been following this thread for a little while now, and have put together this list. I thought I'd post it here before I buy it to see if anyone had any feedback/criticism/improvements. Just want to add that you've got a great thread going here!
Here's my decklist. Idk how to do it properly, but oh well
PLANESWALKER (3)
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
INSTANT (17)
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Start//Finish
SORCERY (10)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
ENCHANTMENT (7)
3 Legions Landing
4 Intangible Virture
LANDS (23)
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Shambling Vent
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Shefet Dunes
1 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
3 Swamp
SIDEBOARD
2 Damping Sphere
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Auriok Champion
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Fragmentize
2 Day of Judgment
3 Duress
2 Stony Silence
As you can probably tell, it's more of an aggro build (only because Bitterbloosom is super expensive lol) with Raise the Alarm, three Legions Landing, etc
A couple of notes on card choices:
Blessed Alliance - At some point I plan to replace this with Collective Brutality, but since that's pretty expensive I think Blessed Alliance is the next best thing.
4 IoK 2 Thoughtseize - Ideally this would be a 3/3 split, but Thoughtseize is expensive, and I already own four IoK, so for the moment I'm going with a 4/2 split
Manabase - As you can see, I've got a fairly budget manabase. I'm trying to keep this as cheap as I realistically can. (In case you were wondering, the only reason I have the Marsh Flats is because it was a gift from a friend)
Shambling Vent - I know a lot of you only run two or three, but I find that its strength in the mid/late game makes of for its occasional clunkiness early game. Having said that I have been considering going down one for another Shefet Dunes.
That's all, so please give me any feedback, suggestions, and especially criticisms that you can think of!
Just realised how long this post is... Sorry