Nice one! I sadly won't get to test out my list until next week as going away this Friday :/
Did you run exactly the same list as Jaberwocki's?
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Jul 12, 2018Yeah I feel the same... I haven't tried PnK yet, but I had the same reservations about Huntmaster as I never liked playing a 4 drop that can be answered by bolt. I just dislike spending 4 mana for my opponent to spend 1 mana and dispose of it. I always feel that when I spent 4 mana on a card it needs to be a "bomb", probably why I liked Hazoret so much when it came out. But maybe I need to change my way of thinking, as after trying huntmaster it was great.Posted in: Midrange
Jul 12, 2018Sorry I think i missed that "only this scenario" bit!Posted in: Midrange
Although, FlyingDelver didn't say bob was better than tracker in that scenario either, as I recall FlyingDelver just said they are more or the less the same in that scenario - and realistically unless you get lucky with your draws you will probably lose to that sort of explosive start. That why I was questioning the purpose of your calculations.
Anyways moving on.....
Jul 12, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from yriel »Anyone can explain me where i miss something in the scenario ?
Because if i not agree with you on that, i not see how i can stay here.....
Again as chaos would say you are/have been flogging a dead horse.... the reason being your entire scenario and calculation was trying to "prove" tracker is better than bob.
Quote from yriel » »
Under my assumptions, tracker seems really better, 32% of "nice" draws with tracker and 23% with bob DURING THE T4.
I repeat, it's quick and false maths (or approximations).
If anyone sees any error or disagree with any assumption, please tell me.
We have been over it so many times in the last several pages of this thread, but to clarify again before Delver or Chaos gets an aneurysm... we have more or less come to the same conclusion that Bob and Tracker serve 2 very different purposes, i.e. you aren't cutting 4 Bobs for 4 trackers. (You can, but that's a different conversation). But ultimately, this means you can't accurately say "Tracker is better than bob".
One other thing I believe you forgot to calculate is that by Turn 4, Bob has drawn 2 extra cards, whereas Tracker will only generate 1 clue (2 with a fetch), but you will need to commit all your mana to draw the card(s). Those 2 extra cards will cost life yes, but it can also be the difference if you draw one of those answers and being able to cast them 1-2 turns earlier (conversely if you brick on each of these extra cards you can die a whole lot quicker). I don't think your calculations were completely wrong, but there's additional factors that you need to consider if you really want to crunch the numbers (imo not worth the effort).
Either way... let it go.... the dead horse and all...
Jul 12, 2018I haven't been a fan of PNK in the past, but someone else described it best as the "red lingering souls". Also it provides some additional reach to combat fliers and also an alternate way of closing the game (through PNK's artifact sac abilitiy). In the video I linked, one of the viewers mentioned a very cool synergy that you may be interested in Tempest - you can sac Tracker clues to deal 2 damage also to finish off an opponent!!!!!Posted in: Midrange
That made me think twice about PNK straight away. As things stand I will probably try Logan Nettles' list, but with 2 terminates instead of fatal push. Then most likely (I may be getting ahead of myself) cut the revelers for trackers.
My biggest concern is only playing 10 creatures may mean we are threat light and we may be stuck without a threat and no way to dig for one (ESPECIALLY if we don't have looting).
Jul 12, 2018I think what you are saying is correct yriel - your calculations show the longer the games goes on the better Tracker is at finding answers for our optimal cards for the match up. And on top of that Tracker doesn't cost us any life. Again it just comes down to 2 important things:Posted in: Midrange
a) will you have that 4th land available on turn 4 to get that clue? (bonus point if you play a fetchland = 2 cards)
b) if you do get that clue, can you crack it AND have sufficient mana left over to cast the card you draw/need. (we know bob doesn't use mana to draw cards, so with bob you should be able to cast whatever you draw or even better... double spell).
But then again we already knew this, didn't we? So what are we trying to work out here? (i'm a bit confused)
Jul 12, 2018I'd just like to add on what FlyingDelver was saying...Posted in: Midrange
The HollowOne situation comes up at my LGS a fair bit. At any given night there are usually 3 or 4 HollowOne decks floating around (not always the same players) and quite a few times I've kept a 7 card hand without knowing what I'm up against and when I cast my Thoughtseize or IoK and see what i'm up against it really is a race against time to find the multiple answers in terminates/maelstrom pulses for their big creatures. It is a very common situation where I can safely say whether I have tracker or bob in my deck is doesn't make any difference. It's more about being able to see as many cards as possible and ideally SELECT the most suitable answer.
As I said, I honestly think Tempest has just been very fortunate so far in his testing to always draw the right cards or maybe not even face the HollowOne explosive draws. It may also come down to his meta not having the explosive decks?
Also, I really liked Jaberwocki's previous list that he didn't 5-0 the league with (it has 2 terminates instead of 2 fatal push and a huntmaster in the main alongside 2 PNK).
Jul 11, 2018@Tempest753Posted in: Midrange
I feel like you just really really really really really really (x1000) really don't like Dark Confidant aka Bob. LOL
I understand what you are saying regarding replacing Bob with other cards because you don't like poor Bobby, but bob is never no value! At worst he is 1 for 1
@FlyingDelver - the exact scenario you played out above happened to me TONIGHT. Pisses me off because my Bob that survived flipped a Land and I drew a land...lol (I was running your list, so technically it's your fault.... hahaha). I did win 2-1 in the end though - unsure if I want to keep on 23 lands or move to 24 (with 4 Looting)
Jul 11, 2018https://www.twitch.tv/videos/282752865Posted in: Midrange
There you go mate, enjoy!
For those who are interested in that list and it's development, I'd strongly recommend watching. Logan Nettle during points in that video shows quite a few important things:
- He explains the development and his train of thought while tweaking his list.
- He discusses the choices for his creatures (in particular why no tracker and why he included PnK)
- He explains his sideboarding plan (he never boarded out looting in any game).
Jul 11, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from Tempest753 »@Delver
In reply to your point about removal, the list you posted should have no issues digging for a spell you need between confidant, flayer, and looting. If you still think the issue persists, at that point I think your problem is with the innate variance of magic and NOT jund. The reason why I didn’t want to talk about these specifics is partly because even though I know my list doesn’t have these issues I don’t know why. Im a touch stumped right now by why we have such different experiences with such similar lists, unless it ultimately boils down to the bobs and flayers. As an aside, it’s worth noting that the difference between 3 and 4 of these unconditional removal spells is big imo. You usually only need one per game, and 3 to 4 seems to be a tipping point between ‘semi-frequently not drawing any’ and ‘usually drawing at least one’.
If I have to offer a reason for the above phenomenon, I’d suggest that it’s because you play too many creatures and not enough disruption, regardless of what those creatures are. If your average opening hand only has 1-2 targeted disruption spells vs 3+, you can’t be as selective about which spell you use for any given problem.
The revelers idea was not me trying to imitate pyromancer, it was me trying to come up with curve toppers other than tireless tracker. I personally think reveler as a 4 drop is perfectly acceptable, and binning 4 instants and sorceries is pretty trivial. If I can cast it for 2-3 (and I don’t think that’s unreasonable), that’s just a bonus.
I think you have just been extremely lucky in your games haha (which is a good thing that you haven't experienced the card selection issue?).... and maybe too many MTGO games and not enough LGS games?
For me personally, I'd say the card selection "issue" does not arise every game I play. And no matter how I much I tweak my list (my ghost quarters/trackers/bob/25 lands/24 lands/23 lands/BBE or no BBE) often the list feels fine for most of the games, but....
1) mana screw/flood happens probably every 1 in 7-8 games?
2) bad draws (too few threats, not enough removal) happens maybe (and I'm being generous here) every 1 in 10-12 games?
3) card selection (drawing a push/bolt instead of terminate/pulse; drawing a goyf/bob/tracker/bbe when I need a scooze; not drawing a discard spell (or a 2nd discard) when I need it; etc.) I do not classify these as "bad draws", BECAUSE the biggest difference in my mind and how I categorize them is that often the "card selection" issues listed above I find is when I am topdecking. If I were to instead be able to look at 2+ cards and say "OK I want that one" that changes the dynamic of this completely (hence the Faithless Looting/Grim Flayer experimentation). If you have multiple cards in hand and you don't have the answer, that is not what I classify as a card selection problem - in my mind I put it under "bad draw". This issue happens 1 in every 3-5 games (higher number because with Jund we are nearly always topdecking after trading resources). I don't mind losing when I'm beat hands down and have no answer in my deck, but when I know I have plenty of answers in my deck, but don't have the ability to look at multiple cards and pick one of those answers... and instead top deck a land- makes me wanna flip a table lol
So basically, it's great for you that you haven't experienced these issues... I wish I have been that lucky haha...
Jul 11, 2018100% Agree with you there Ayiluss! I don't like flayer for the reasons you just mentioned (especially the fact that he needs to land a successful hit).Posted in: Midrange
Looting is better and also has flashback for later on in the game when you are drawing blanks.
I just went back and watched the entire league of Logan Nettles' (Jaberwocki) 5-0 league matches and he was flooding on lands in quite a few of the games and looting just fixed his draws. He was able to see a lot more cards and find the specific answers to win the games.
To be honest, I didn't like the initial lists that he had played so I had stopped watching, but he has tweaked and tweaked and developed his list to this lean list. The only thing i'm unsure on is:
1) Whether to go down to 23 lands intead of 24
2) Go down to 1 LtLH and some other cut to find space for 2 terminates.
Jul 11, 2018AH You make a valid point. I totally forgot the increase in lands... casting reveler for 3 or 4 should be fine too. Though that may mean you don't get to cast any additional spells the turn you play reveler.Posted in: Midrange
I was thinking of running 4 bobs and 3 tracker, but no flayer (I'm also not a huge fan of flayer). With that said the Abzan traverse list that game 2nd in the GP is quite interesting. I'm still trying to figure out how he finished 2nd...
Jul 11, 2018Pretty sure those 24 instants/sorceries are not enough (even if it is just 2 revelers).Posted in: Midrange
6 of them are reactive spells, so if our opponent doesn't have creatures they are going to be sitting in our hand. Or worse, if you do cast it and you are forced to bin your reactive cards for no value....
I like the idea, but I'm going to have to stick with the list you posted earlier FlyingDelver with bobs + tracker + looting.
Another question on that list: How has Grim Flayer been for you in testing? Were you able to land enough hits successfully to set up your draws?
Jul 10, 2018Uhhh.. that was a tough to understand post, but I think you missed the main point. No one was actually arguing that Jund is better than Mardu. Yes they are both midrange decks, but they play very differently. Most midrange decks (Jund in particular) will always have a decent chance to beat every deck and there are no below-30% chance match ups.Posted in: Midrange
The main discussion point here was what are the main issues Jund players have been experiencing so far?
And the last 10 or so pages of this thread has been on this discussion and how to fix or improve it. A lot of people have contributed several different new ideas to experiment with, so I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you kept saying "classical Jund". Jund is an everchanging deck that is designed to combat the current meta and will continue to evolve and change. There is no "classical jund" as you put it - and whether you put in bob or take our LotV it all comes down to your local meta and how it works for you.
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